Nothing to see here folks! Move along, move along.

Norway is under attack! A massive car bomb and near-simultaneous shooting spree at a resort island. Sounds like the terrorists are at it again! On a per capita basis, Norway lost twice as many people in this attack as the U.S. did on 9/11. Imagine the political repercussions throughout the world if double-9/11-scale damage had been done by an al-Qaeda offshoot.

Damn those Al Q… what? Say again? Really? It wasn’t a super secret sleeper cell of brown skinning islamic extremist nutjobs? The person arrested for the shootings on the island is (allegedly) one Anders Behring Breivik. Active in right wing circles… rabid ‘nationalist’… writes über long screeds (presumably as partially nonsensical as our resident wwnjs) against Muslims… hates him some immigrants… fundi Christian… owns three guns (glock, rifle, shotgun)…

Of course, he must have felt justified cuz he was just shootin The Bad Guys™.

Oh wait, he’s just a lone crazy person, nothing to see here folks. Move along, move along.

76 Responses to “Nothing to see here folks! Move along, move along.”

  1. shcb Says:

    I guess I don’t understand your point, if he’s a right winger so what, he is and he killed a bunch of people, he needs to answer for the evil he’s done. If he were a left winger and killed a bunch of people he should answer for the evil he’s done. If he were a member of a radical religion that killed thousands and wanted to kill more he and they should answer for the evil they do. Is someone saying that since he is a right winger he should get a pass?

  2. shcb Says:

    I think the real story is how the Norwegians are waking up to how lenient their system is, 76 people dead and he could be out of prison and still be younger than I am now?

  3. knarlyknight Says:

    No shcb, no one is saying that since he is a right winger he should get a pass; I think the sentiment is that we should fear and watch right wingers closely because they all seem to be one or two steps away from this kind of lunacy. The violence in their language, their xenophobia, their cruel and radical “solutions” to social policies that they disagree with, it often leads to horror (e.g. Tomothy McVeigh.) In contrast, the leftist radicals in San Francisco are not out buying truckloads of fertilizer or training with guns. YHou’ve been around this block with Enk beffore, and you lose every time.

    Breivik attacked children of members of the Labour party in an attempt to influence currrent and future political decisions by the Labour party about immigration policies, according to Breivik.

    It’s like Bush’s doctrine of attack Muslims in Iraq so they won’t come here to fight. (Never mind that the supposed purptraitors of 911 were not Iraqi but rather they were mostly Saudi, and that WMD claims were bogus, or that the Iraqi’s had no intentions of coming to America to fight us here, etc.) Same screwed up mindset, except Bush had access to WMD and the death and destruction is 100,000 times greater.

    Apparently this attack is similar to the 1970′s “political cleansing” of the Left in Latin America by right wing extremists (while American military advisors were present in the country) – it’s an attempt to to wipe out the next generation of political leaders. Refer to first few chapters of Shock Doctrine, which chronicled the atrocities and which Breviek seems to have taken to heart.

    Seriously, wwnj’s are dangerous, and that is bad.

  4. knarlyknight Says:

    re: your second post, please tell us how a less lenient prison system would have prevented Breivik’s attack; and, explain how America’s less enlightened prison policies have resulted in such a safe society in America compared to Norway. LOL.

  5. enkidu Says:

    highlights from Jeff Sharlet’s reading of Breivik’s 2083 (which I hope is when he comes up for parole)

    Breivik: “Tea party movement is one of the first physical, political manifestations which indicate that there is a great storm coming.” More like a really big dump.

    B. enjoys sites like (batsh!t crazy) Pam Geller’s Atlas Shrugged

    B. was pissed about War on Christmas (Hello Bill O!)

    B. enjoyed playing dress up. (see Tea Party/JBirch Soc/kkk ref above)

    B. hates him some gays too… looks like you won’t be dating him any time soon McFrootloop

    B. plagiarizes TKaczynski at length (another wwnj)

    B. is big fan of Ayn Rand (must be BFFs w Paul Ryan)

    B. is a strident Christian evangelical (wwnj) and again, duh!
    “the right and duty of Christians to wage war on those that blaspheme our God and persecute our brethren.” (sounds just like the ienjs…)

    B. is climate change denier (duh)

    B. hates him some libs

    B. is OK w atheists (whew I dodged a bullet there!) just so long as we preserve at least the basics of Euro Christian cultural legacy (ruh roh)

    Free Republic freepers all in a lather about how great this guy is..
    expect more of the same as these wwnjs see violence as a good thing (duh)
    Killin teh traitors and Very Bad Guys™ is teh awesome sauce…

    This guy sounds just. like. you. wwnj. You must be so proud.

  6. Smith Says:

    “if he’s a right winger so what, he is and he killed a bunch of people, he needs to answer for the evil he’s done.”

    “If he were a member of a radical religion that killed thousands and wanted to kill more he and they should answer for the evil they do.”

    “I guess I don’t understand your point”

    LOL “They” vs “he”. Nice try, but lacks subtlety. Jarring shift there, shcb. Good job proving enky’s point.

  7. Smith Says:

    Stay classy, Beck.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8660986/Norway-shooting-Glenn-Beck-compares-dead-teenagers-to-Hitler-youth.html

  8. enkidu Says:

    ya know, Mr Smith, I wrote my post over the weekend but didn’t actually send it to the lies.com page. Everyone here has heard me warn that wwnjs are violent, angry and more than capable of atrocities. Then I heard that crap from Glenn Beck… really? The victims were like Hitler Youth?

    Fuck you GB. Fuck you wrong wing nut jobs.

    You thugs would rather the whole world’s economy go down in flames than give ‘that boy’ even the tiniest bit of compromise. Go fuck yourself is just too kind.

    ps – I love how the pic in your link has GB with a red armband (oh is that his logo? shucks quite the coinkidink!)

  9. shcb Says:

    Yes Knarly, we are more violent, we make better soldiers, better police officers and better protectors of the delicate few. And yes when we go nuts we do it a lot better than those delicate few.

    Will a less lenient system stop this kind of crime? No, the man is deranged, but have you seen a picture without his shit eating grin? He got away with murder times four score. The reason you kill these guys is it’s the right thing to do.

  10. knarlyknight Says:

    No, over-violence makes far worse soldiers and police, violence begets greater violence, you idiots might win battles but you lose the wars big time and impoverish your children.

    He has a nice smile. It’s his brain, morals and values that eat shit. Right wing brain, right wing morals and values through and through. You are a mere pale reflection of his evil light.

    “He got away with murder times four score.” Really? How did he get away with it? He got caught. He’s despised, discredited and ridiculed. He committed pathetic, cowardly crimes against unarmed civilians. The Norwegians will deal with him in a responsible manner. Doubtful they will be invading Lithuania in response, as your idiotic former wwnj leader would have done.

  11. enkidu Says:

    “The reason you kill these guys is it’s the right thing to do.”

    So murdering children at a leadership summer camp is the right thing to do?
    wow
    hfs you are sick

  12. shcb Says:

    Come on Enky that’s low even for you, but alas that is now what I said because that is how you have rephrased it…. Sigh.

    So Knarly, what if he were left wing? Would you then condemn left wingers and their brains or just brand the individual a crazy, evil person.

    He got away with it because he knows he gets a cot and three squares for 20 years and he is a free man barely in his 50s, and he has done something that is monumental and great in his mind. The only price is a few years of his life. Hopefully there will be a reception committee for him in prison, remember all the guys in the big house know how good they have it as criminals in Norway, he might have just screwed that up for them.

  13. NorthernLite Says:

    Yes, fuck you Glen Beck.

    However, politically-oriented camps are being organized in several U.S. states by chapters of the “9/12 Project” — an organization founded by Beck himself in 2009.

    The Colorado 9/12 Project hosted a “Patriot Camp” for kids in grades 1-5 earlier this month, featuring programs on “our Constitution, the Founding Fathers, and the values and principles that are the cornerstones of our nation.”

    And in August, the Danville, Kentucky, chapter is holding a “Vacation Liberty School” that organizers pledge “will help your children understand where we came from. Understand where we went wrong. Understand where the fork in the road was, and which path we should have taken.”

    Hmm. “Understand where we went wrong.” Let me take a wild guess and say that electing a black man will be included in the list of things “where we went wrong”… along with ending slavery, the civil and gender rights movements and Medicare.

    Beck is actually holding training camps, molding a whole new generation of deranged right-wingers that will no doubt some day result in more killings.

  14. NorthernLite Says:

    shcb, I very much doubt that the Norwegians are ever gonna let this piece of shit see daylight again. It sounds like they’ll charge him with Crimes Against Humanity and he’ll rot in jail for the rest of his life.

  15. enkidu Says:

    You wrote:
    “The reason you kill these guys is it’s the right thing to do.”
    I quoted you (exactly)
    “The reason you kill these guys is it’s the right thing to do.”

    My condolences to those poor nuns. Your words are beyond sick. And yet you lack any shame or regret. It’s the right wing nut job thing to do…

    I have asked before: how many more of my people, the normal people, the moderates, the liberals, the decent folk have to die before the world wakes up to the threat of right wing extremism? Apparently your answer is ‘all of them’.

  16. shcb Says:

    I was talking about the killer and those like him asshole, god you’re a prick.

  17. shcb Says:

    NL, let’s hope so, because if their system lets him out someone will kill him, and then they will be a murderer, government not taking care of business is what makes vigilantes

  18. enkidu Says:

    wwnj – I think your actual words revealed your actual feelings… perhaps you could use algore’s amazing information superhighway to look up the word ‘subconscious’

    Amazing to think you want to label this as just another crazy person, end of story. Even a cursory glance at his manifesto shows that he is very much dialed into the right wing blogosphere, the wwnj media machine, wwnj politics and the whole gawd, guns n gays schtick.

    He reads the same crap you do, he spouts the same wwnj gibberish, he hates him some brown people just like you (I mean c’mon, how many times have you blamed the Great Recession on ‘negroes n mexicans’?) The only difference between you and this maniac is he actually lit the fuze and emptied his clip (don’t retreat! RELOAD!)

    “asshole, god you’re a prick”

  19. enkidu Says:

    Beck: If We Can’t Use Hitler Analogies In “Logical Conversation,” “We Are Going To Be A Society Of Gas Chambers”

    You stay classy wwnjs!

  20. knarlyknight Says:

    It’s not about staying classy, it’s about staying stupid.

    (e.g. wwnj favouring corporal punishment helps to ensure that: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/need-another-reason-not-to-spank-your-kids/article2110112/ )

  21. shcb Says:

    At least the comments were reasonable, guess that shows the disconnect between the self appointed intelectuals and the folks that get things done and keep this old world sane.

  22. knarlyknight Says:

    Okay, I agree with you about the comments. I should have read the article better, it sucks.

    So do you agree that Glen Beck is a “self appointed intellectual”? Do you mean Obama when you say “folks that get things done (or are you referring ot Breivik again?) and who you think “keeps the world sane” (other than Pentagon generals who are insane virtually by definition.)

  23. shcb Says:

    Thanks for admitting that Knarly, it makes it all worth while somehow.

    Is Glen Beck a self appointed intellectual? He is certainly self appointed, he isn’t much of an intellectual, I’ve always thought he was just a nationally syndicated Enky or Smith, he really doesn’t know much about what he pontificates about he is just a bully that gloms on whatever minor point he can find and pounds his opponent with it until the poor sap is bloody. Nice folks.

    I’m more talking about the experts that have never done what they claim to be exerts in. Now that doesn’t mean that you have to done it to be an expert but sometimes these idiots tell us things that just plain fly in the face of common sense and want us to believe them just because they are experts. I’m already seeing this side in my daughter and she hasn’t even been accepted into grad school yet. She decided my back problems might be in my head, I have a broken back, you can see it on the xrays!

    No Obama isn’t one of the folks that get things done, he is one of the pointy head intellectuals. The people that keep this world sane are the folks that go to work everyday, raise their kids the way they are supposed to be raised, go to church if they that is important to them, just live normal lives. The people in the comment section are real people, now I doubt that site is a right wing bastion but look at all the people that agreed to one level or another, some had kids, some didn’t, some spank their kids some don’t, my guess is some are liberal and some are conservative, but they all intrinsically knew it was bs.

  24. Anithil Says:

    “No Obama isn’t one of the folks that get things done, he is one of the pointy head intellectuals”.

    Heh. Well, I guess it’s kind of hard to get wwnj to acknowledge progress when you, a) start soooo very far in the red due to *ahem* certain decade preceding your term, and b) have certain political pundits on the far right saying they “hope obama fails”. Yeah, that’s great.

    I know this is off topic, I suppose. Just couldn’t let this one go.

  25. Smith Says:

    shcb summary: “Hurrrr…. Smart people sure is dumb”

    And people wonder why the US is in decline.

    Dumb and impulsive is no way to run a country.

    Also, LOL at trying to claim Obama is the reason things aren’t “getting done.” You goopers have just as much to do with that as anyone else. I also love the Libya strategy of accusing Obama of not doing enough, while at the same time attempting to block him from doing anything at all. It is almost as if you are completely devoid of principles. Hmmm….

  26. shcb Says:

    You guys are both missing the point, the divide between folks that get things done and intellectuals isn’t limited to intelligence, or education or a lack of either. The Dean of admissions at CSU gets up every morning feeds her 300 sheep then drives from her home in Wyoming to Fort Collins where she presides over a major part of a major university, you can’t meet this woman without being impressed with both her intelligence, grace and work ethic, she’s is one of those folks that is getting it done. She doesn’t have to run a farm, she does it because she loves it and it keeps her grounded. One of the ladies on our production floor isn’t very bright but she is as sweet as can be, she is 50 years old and can outwork the teenagers, when she had cancer she attacked it and won. She is just as impressive, even though she is completely different, but neither woman is a pointy headed intellectual.

    People like Obama, and my daughter it seems, work off theory with little regard to real life scenarios, that is why they get dubbed pointy headed intellectuals.

  27. NorthernLite Says:

    Oh, is the republican party full of people ‘getting things done’? Cuz from where I’m standing, they look like a bunch of idiots who can’t even agree on what colour the sky is.

  28. NorthernLite Says:

    And then I see Obama, getting OBL, bringing your country back from the brink of depression, reforming healthcare and Wall St., ending the war in Iraq, withdrawing from Aghanistan, repealing DADT and now I just read that Reid’s plan cuts spending three times more than Boehners… Sounds like people getting things done to me.

    What, exactly, does the GOP do these days except for whine and cry?

  29. shcb Says:

    Hmm, I would say that generally speaking politicians of either side aren’t the type of person that I am refering to as someone that gets things done, not at the national level anyway, maybe at the state and local level, but not national,with plenty room for individual exceptions of course. That is why I am of the opinion government types should stay out of the way of the doers as much as possible.

    Obama has had some fleeting successes, but he hasn’t proven to be a very good executive in my opinion because he is both a pointy headed intellectual and a politician, the worst of both worlds.

    The GOP can only do so much, they only control one third of the government so all they can do is stop things, they can’t innitiate (technically they can, but not practically). That said they didn’t do much when they did have the power.

  30. Anithil Says:

    And you are missing the point, in that I said Obama is, a) an intellectual of the non-pointy headed variety, and b) does get things done. Saying that Obama works off of theory with little regard to real-life scenarios is downright ridiculous.

  31. NorthernLite Says:

    I’m just ranting, I’m getting pissed off. My mom already lost a big chunk of her retirement investments a few years ago and if it happens again I swear I’m going to blow a gasket!

  32. knarlyknight Says:

    gaskets are expensive.

  33. enkidu Says:

    So which is it? Obama the sociamalistic/fascist tyrant or Obama is a pointy headed (said with a snear) ‘intellectual’ worse than Jimmy Carter? Depends on whether the wind is blowing east or west I suppose.

    Don’t forget the whole “here’s my long form birth certificate biotchs” oh, and we found and killed OBL. Anything else I can get you?
    http://otterzen.blogspot.com/2011/05/zen-826-anything-else-i-can-get-you.html

    Also, BHO has been busy cleaning up shrubbie’s mega-fuckups. Doing an OK job thus far (here comes wwnj’s rant about how it is all negroes n mexicans fault, not credit $60T worth of crap default swaps and bogus rating agency valuations, nope. nothing to see here folks)

    In a way I agree with some of what wwnj is spewing. There was an article in the NYT or some other commie pinko rag that made the case that America started the long slide into irrelevance (hello Asia!) when MBAs started replacing engineers. The example was the auto industry. Some truth there. Tho I am sure wwnj will twist it to be some dam libs fault. Any dam libs fault. hurf durf

    and lorry!

  34. knarlyknight Says:

    enk, I had to do a double take on that first picture to make sure it wasn’t a photochop of the sherriff in Blazing Saddles. Does that admission / statement make me a racist?

  35. enkidu Says:

    I’ve always said wwnj reminds me of that scene from Blazing Saddles where the whole town is turned out to greet their new Sheriff. wwnj is the drunk up on the roof w the telescope: “ah said! the Sheriff is a π!@@&$!” what did he say? he said ‘the sheriff is near!’

    We’d like to extend this laurel and hearty handshake to our new… π!@@&$

    Cleavon Little was perfect in that role (rest his soul)
    Don’t move or the π!@@&$ gets it! Do as he say! Do as he say! Oh lordy, he’s crazy!

    The Sheriff is still busy cleaning up rethuggle messes.

    I find it ironic that O is blamed for the debt Boner and Co all voted for. Reagan raised the debt limit 18 times, GHW 9 times, Clinton 4 times, shrub 7 times, Obama 3… the % increases are revealing: http://progressivetoo.com/2011/07/14/past-increases-of-debt-ceiling-since-kennedy/

    Reagan tripled the deficit, shrub doubled it. Stoopid facts! So dang lib!

    Just curious, what big spending spree has Obama gone on? hmmm? HCR? saves $100B over the next ten years by giving more leverage to Medicare to hold down reimbursements and other cost containment moves. Plus it is cheaper to give someone basic healthcare rather than emergency room healthcare. Oh fuck it another fact…

    hurf durf and lorry!

  36. NorthernLite Says:

    Best comment on the tea party I’ve ever read:

    There will be no highway maintenance, no capital projects, no feeding the poor or paying to educate children. Please note that the descent of American education brought about the Tea Party. When you vote against the national interest because you’re too uneducated to grasp what it is, you take your nation into a lower echelon.

    http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/1030940–mallick-canada-will-get-soaked-as-u-s-sinks

  37. enkidu Says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upvZdVK913I

    last line pretty much sums up Rethuggles/TeaBirchers

    don’t worry NL, you can still sell that Athabasca gold to the Chinese

  38. shcb Says:

    Really Anithil? Maybe our points of view are too far apart but I see many, many examples of him being a pointy head intellectual, now I think he has been learning, which is one nice thing of being a PHI is by definition they are intelligent so they have the ability to learn quicker than most but in areas of economics and foreign policy he has made some really bone headed moves because he acts on the way he wishes the world were not the way it is. Another clue is look who he has surrounded himself with, an inordinate number of Ivy League intellectuals. I imagine you consider that a good thing, I don’t.

  39. Anithil Says:

    Well, that explains a lot I suppose.

  40. shcb Says:

    Now don’t get me wrong, pointy headed intellectuals have their place, they are good to have on your team. But it is like adding cumin to your recipe, it will really enhance the experience but just a pinch will do.

    I think Obama would have made a cracker jack senator, he just isn’t executive material.

  41. NorthernLite Says:

    I listed a bunch of things he “got done” above. You’ve done a lot of criticizing and went over the definition of PHI several times, but I see no examples to back it up.

    HCR alone was something every president tried to accomplish for 50 years, and he got it done. As I said and listed above, I think he’s done quite a bit in 2.5 years. Just because you may not agree with everything he has accomplished doesn’t negate the fact that he has in fact accomplished quite a bit, during a brutal recession no less.

  42. knarlyknight Says:

    NL, Yea but shcb used more words, repeated ad nauseum, and put things in folksy terms.

  43. NorthernLite Says:

    This is true. Dang it…

    ;-)

  44. shcb Says:

    Getting OBL, yes I have given him high marks for that, same with killing the three Arabs on the lifeboat. Now he didn’t do anything courageous personally in those cases but no pres does, but he did take considerable political risks and risked innocent lives and he did very well, he made a hard decision quickly, decisively then let the good guys handle it from there. In those cases he showed considerable leadership.

    Reforming Healthcare, bad. More later.

    Ending war in Iraq and Afghanistan, eh… hasn’t happened yet, but we’re done over there unless they still can’t handle it, no real points for that, I have given him points for continuing Bush’s good deeds of going in there, that one is a push from a leadership standpoint.

    Repealing DADT, that is a “whatever”, Clinton wimped out when he instituted it, he should have made an up or down decision there, then Bush kicked the can down the road. If that is important to you he gets leadership points I suppose, but I think that one was inevitable so I don’t give him points but if you want to I won’t fight it.

    Now the meat, the reason you and Anithil think he has gotten things done and I don’t is that conflict of visions thing. My priorities are national security and the economy. In my opinion all he has done in the area of national security is continue his predecessor, and that is probably all that he should have done, doing more or less would have probably made things worse so he gets an average rating there. But on the economy he has failed as a leader. Forget the policies that have either made things worse or didn’t help for a while, his most glaring failure as a leader is he hasn’t given business anything they can hang their hat on, and that makes business impossible to grow in hard times. Business wants absolutes as much as possible, a leader would get up there and say this is what is going to happen, this is why, and this is how I intend to do it, he simply hasn’t done that. Time and time again in one crisis or anther he has remained silent far to long until the magic moment has passed.

    I really don’t think he understands economies and really doesn’t care much. His focus his whole life has been helping the poor at someone else’s expense, and there has always been someone to fill that need so he has never had to understand how it works. Healthcare for instance, I don’t think he understands how so many of the nuances will hurt business, and doesn’t care.

    I think he also doesn’t like American exceptionalism, and has gone out of his way to not only ignore it, but to hurt it, this is bad leadership on so many levels.

    So as you can see he is doing great in your mind because his objectives are yours, he is doing not so great in my mind because he doesn’t share my objectives. But I think I have been fair here, do you agree?

  45. Smith Says:

    You are conflating “doing things I don’t like” with “not getting things done”. How you could possibly fail to understand the difference is beyond me.

    Also:
    “American exceptionalism”

    LOL

  46. shcb Says:

    The conversation evolved, you have to keep up.

  47. NorthernLite Says:

    Yes, I agree with Smith and that’s what I said above: just because you don’t agree with all that he has done doesn’t negate the fact that he has done a lot in 2.5 years.

    See to most of us, the fact that he stands up for the middle class (he could do more, to be sure) and average working man is pretty much all that is required for us to support him.

  48. enkidu Says:

    What Mr Smith said (x2)

    There are plenty of things that most independents and liberals don’t like about Obama. For example he seems to be a very poor negotiator. He didn’t put the shrubco criminals in jail (John Yoo, Dick (go fuck yourself) Cheney I’m lookin at you). He didn’t close gitmo (probably backed into a legal corner by the shrubco junta). He hasn’t tried any liberal policies.

    An example: HCR was a give away to the insurance companies. While it does save some money (after all, medical costs are the biggest single potential increase in fed spending), he seems to be unaware that in a negotiation you start out asking for more than what you want then move towards a compromise. You don’t start at compromise and move towards capitulation. Start at single payer, negotiate down to Medicare for all or a public option. Every other industrialized country has better healthcare outcomes for less money.

    Another example: economic leadership. wwnj do you even remember 2008/2009? The shrubco regime crashed the world economy into a Second Greater Depression. Obama came in and basically fixed and bandaged and bailed to restore confidence. Good steady leadership, no show trials, no sociamalism! no liberal policies. We made money on the auto bailouts, etc.

    Ah but why let facts get in the way of a wwnj rant. Sociamalism!
    hurf durf! and lorry!

  49. Smith Says:

    “The conversation evolved, you have to keep up.”

    Translation: shcb got caught spewing bullshit, so he has shifted the goal posts to avoid admitting he was wrong (as is his usual tactic).

    P.S. “Smith, he really doesn’t know much about what he pontificates about he is just a bully that gloms on whatever minor point he can find and pounds his opponent with it until the poor sap is bloody.”

    I learned this “technique” from you way back when I first started posting here. It seems to be the only form of “debate” you are capable of. Don’t even try to pretend you are above it all, you sniveling little Socialist/Fascist/Asshole/Prick (guess where I learned that).

  50. Smith Says:

    “he stands up for the middle class (he could do more, to be sure) and average working man”

    LOL at this, too. The parenthetical clause is the only truth in that statement.

  51. Smith Says:

    “he seems to be unaware that in a negotiation you start out asking for more than what you want then move towards a compromise. You don’t start at compromise and move towards capitulation. Start at single payer, negotiate down to Medicare for all or a public option.”

    You are assuming that he sincerely wanted a public option instead of the “give away to the insurance companies” we actually ended up with. I don’t think he is as naive as everyone seems to believe he is.

  52. shcb Says:

    Where this conversation changed course was when Knarly asked me where Obama stood in my opinion, was he a PHI or not. Even at that point the questions is quite general, on average I think he is for the reasons I gave. The next point that needs to be clarified is the difference between doing something and getting something done. That is where an individual’s vision and priorities come in, we can both agree he did something with the passage of socialized healthcare, the difference of opinion is did he get anything done, and that almost always involves our priorities.

    Of course I think socializing medicine is giant step backwards, it will cost more and deliver less, you can look at Canada and Britain and see that is true, but that depends on your vision. From a more objective point of whether something was done is that we were told everyone would be covered, we were told that 40 to 60 million people in America don’t have insurance, then we were told when it passed this was a great day because 20 million that didn’t have insurance now would several years from now. Add that all up and it falls sort of the goal, he didn’t get it done, even by his own standards.

    You can spend the whole summer digging a ditch, really nice ditch, straight, just the right grade, beautiful ditch, but if it doesn’t connect to the pond it won’t do the crops much good and the farmer that hired you isn’t going to be happy. So did you do something? Yes, you dug a great ditch, did you get something done? No, the ditch was pointless, unless your vision was for the ditch to start nowhere and end nowhere, in which case you were successful but it helped no one in a practical matter (PHI). The other possibility is you were just plain in competent.

  53. enkidu Says:

    The Really Big Deal – all cuts for the middle class and poor, no cuts or revenue increases from the rich… I’m not so sure my analysis is so far off Mr Smith, but then again, yours is probably just as valid.

    wwnj – “just plain in competent” (snicker)

    The New Yorker has a interesting article up on the raid that killed OBL
    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/08/08/110808fa_fact_schmidle?currentPage=all

    sounds like the CinC is anything but “in competent”

  54. shcb Says:

    When have I said anything different?

  55. Smith Says:

    You’ve shifted the goal posts so far you are not even in the stadium anymore. I know Republicans have no concept of personal accountability, but perhaps you should break that trend and admit you were wrong, rather than continuing to make an ass of yourself.

  56. Smith Says:

    Now that Don’t Ask Don’t Tell is going away, you can be “out competent”.

  57. shcb Says:

    These guys are so much fun! I’m not going to go back through it all but I’m pretty sure I gave Obama high marks for his handling of the OBL killing in this very thread, and yet Enky comes after me for saying I thought Obama was incompetent in that regard. I left a couple obvious mistakes in there to see if they would come after me for the mistakes or the content. They are so predictable, and they call me the idiot:-)

    And a good time was had by all.

  58. NorthernLite Says:

    “it (healthcare) will cost more and deliver less, you can look at Canada…”

    Actually we live longer and healthier lives and spend half as much as you do per capita.

    Quite frankly I think the era of America giving out advice to other countries is pretty much over. Especially advice on healthcare and fiscal policy. And democracy (most dysfunctional and corrupted political system I’ve ever seen in a Western nation).

  59. shcb Says:

    Do you really spend less? According to Knarly you have to pay extra for supplemental insurance if you want decent coverage and care. This is also true in Britain. And as we’ve discussed in the past part of the reason your health care is what it is, is because you have us to pay for your drugs and research. If we follow your model (which we are) both of us will have less care, unless we both spend more money than we are now. So we either get one or the other, less care or spend more money, and all so half or a third of the people that aren’t covered now are covered at some point in the future, not much of a bargain in my estimation. But it depends on your objectives I suppose. Stopping American exceptionalism doesn’t do much for me, but it probably sounds great to others.

  60. Anithil Says:

    You left a couple of mistakes in there to see if we would go after the mistakes or the content? Haha. Good joke, there. See, I’ve always believed that having mistakes in your argument takes people’s concentration away from the message you’re trying to get across. As we’ve seen.

    The fact that you cite American exceptionalism as this holy right to be protected, reveals a lot. I think you have a completely different idea of what American exceptionalism is compared to me or some other people on this site.

    Also, I would go with the person who lives in Canada as the correct source for how much he/she spends on health care.

    Also, as someone who would potentially have trouble getting good healthcare in the future due to a pre-existing condition during which I was a child and had absolutely no control of, thank you sir, for believing that that half or a third of people simply don’t deserve healthcare as much as you. Even *if* you would be paying more.

  61. shcb Says:

    Ok, so let’s take them one at a time

    American exceptionalism isn’t a right and it certainly isn’t a holy right, it has to be earned every day. That said I feel this president is a little embarrassed by it and at the very least doesn’t want to promote it, at the worst wants to harm it, he thinks the rest of the world will like him more.

    I have a completely different idea of most everything than most people on this site, no news flash there.

    I did use someone that lives in Canada for the source of how much they spend on health care, Knarly.

    Healthcare isn’t a right, that said, I think we as a society have a duty to provide at least basic care to everyone, and we do. That doesn’t mean everyone deserves equal care, sorry. But that wasn’t my point, my point was that Obama did something, something you guys approve of but even that fell short since his promise of everyone that didn’t have coverage (not care, coverage) would have insurance, ended up falling short 20 to 40 million people (according to his own figures), so he really didn’t get the job done. He did do something, but not what he said he was going to do, it might have been what he meant to do, but not what he said he would do, his ditch didn’t connect to the pond.

    There are some areas where our Health care system needed to be tweaked, always will, but there was no reason to bring down the care of 85% and their costs up so the 15% could be covered and government could control the industry, there were better ways to do it. Up to and including just simply paying the bill for the uninsurable.

  62. NorthernLite Says:

    “little embarrassed by it (American exceptionalism)”

    Have you been watching the fiasco taking place in your nation’s capital?

    If there is still such a thing as “American Exceptionalism” and that’s what it looks like, I think you should be a little embarrassed too.

  63. shcb Says:

    American exceptionalism has seldom come from Washington, we are much better when they stay out of our way.

  64. enkidu Says:

    NL – touché!

    wrong wing nut job – funny how you twist whatever anyone else says to suit your current blather. You dumped on Senator Obama (do I really have to go to the google to dig up all your low sloping forehead condescension?) and you were contemptuous of Obama’s decisions regarding bringing OBL to justice.

    I have a Canadian wife, and I’ve seen what Canadian healthcare is like: they pay less, cover everyone and get better outcomes. Healthcare should be a basic human right. If you want to pay more for better care, no one is stopping you: go for it. Just like those dang sociamalists up in commie Canada. If we had single payer we wouldn’t be paying insurance company profits. More sociamalism! Sick people would get healthcare. Rather than the boot from their ‘insurance’ plans (which exist solely to turn a profit, not provide healthcare). The largest cause of bankruptcy in the US is due to healthcare costs.

    But why let facts get in the way of a good wwnj rant?

    btw – Gabby Giffords returned to the house yesterday. Good to see her sociamalistical healthcare working for her. It made me proud to see her smiling and waving after taking a bullet in the head from that wwnj. Can anyone else here see any daylight between our loquacious wwnj’s rants and the spew from Breivek? Discuss.

  65. shcb Says:

    That said I thought the deal was about as good as you could get given the makeup of congress, Obama got what he wanted which was the best chance to be reelected, the military takes it in the shorts and medicare is off the table. In return the Rs don’t have auto tax increases, not bad for only having control of 1/2 of 1/3 of the government.

  66. shcb Says:

    shcb Says:

    July 28th, 2011 at 3:27 pm
    Getting OBL, yes I have given him high marks for that, same with killing the three Arabs on the lifeboat.

  67. NorthernLite Says:

    Yeah I definitely think the Rs got the better deal. For the life of me I just don’t understand why you can’t put tax rates back to the Clinton levels *and* cut spending. I’m not saying raise them right now, but next year when they expire.

    The Ds seem to be the shittiest negotiators on the planet. Every poll I’ve seen shows an overwhelming majority of voters wanted a mix of cuts and tax increases – especially closing loopholes and absurd breaks for companies that are shipping jobs overseas.

    I don’t think you can cut your way out of this massive debt.

  68. shcb Says:

    Well, they both got what they wanted most for reelection, the debt ceiling issue won’t come up again until after the election, and taxes won’t be raised any more than they scheduled, which is a few percent. You’re right, we can’t save our way out of this, saving is a defensive move and you never win playing defense. We also can’t tax our way out of it, we have to grow the ecconomy without increasing spending, then and only then can you increase taxes, but only briefly.

  69. NorthernLite Says:

    Do you think term limits would help with that (“they both got what they wanted most for reelection”)?

    We’ve just placed 12 year limits on our Federal Senators and it’s something I want to see for all our politicians. I think its better for the country.

  70. shcb Says:

    No I don’t think it would matter. In this particular case they would still want their party to be reelected so the dynamic would be the same. The president and governor are different because they have a unilateral ability to effect policy via the veto. The president has an additional difference in that he is the only nationally elected official in our government.

    With the exception of the executive branches I don’t like term limits. According to my lobbyist brother in law they really messed up Colorado, you have a bunch of newbies all the time, there is no base of long term politicians to anchor the mess. Without term limits there is always going to be a mix of long term and short term politicians, the short termers either change hands because they are incompetent or like a friend of mine that was a one term congressman at the state level, that is all they want, he felt he needed to do it as a matter of public service but only intended to stay one term.

    My brother in law said what he saw after term limits was almost an opposite bad dynamic, instead of the politicians always in reelection mode, wanting to do what the constituency wanted them to do so they would get reelected, about the time they figured out how things worked (after their first term) they had no chance of reelection so they stopped doing what the folks wanted them to do and did what they wanted to do. Many times that meant setting themselves up for life after congress.

  71. Smith Says:

    Lol, as long as you guys are discussing “American Exceptionalism” why don’t you throw Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy in there too.

    Good to see the rest of you (enky excluded) are too damn chicken-shit to actually call out shcb on his bullshit. He completely changes the terms of the debate at his convenience, and you wimps just roll with it. A bigger collection of cowards cannot be found outside the DNC. Republicans are left to control the discourse yet again.

  72. shcb Says:

    You know, the one thing I’ve never done here is not respond to a direct, legitimate question, if you feel I changed the deate to duck sometthing ask away. I feel the conversation changed and I was just changing with it. I suppose we could time line the thing with black and white glossy photos with a paragraph on the back of each, but that seems too much trouble,

  73. NorthernLite Says:

    LOL, I think its more due to the fact the I’ve been discussing things with him for years and I know how he his. It’s just a blog with only one rightwinger who comes regularly and as crazy and absurd as i think some of shit he says is, i sort of respect him for coming back. When I see the ”debate” going nowhere I just let it go and move on.

  74. NorthernLite Says:

    On another note how about a lies.com app for Android :)

  75. enkidu Says:

    the one thing I’ve never done here is not respond to a direct, legitimate question

    zomg that was some funny sh!t
    when have you ever responded to a “direct legitimate question”?

    I swear I snorted half my finely oaked Chardonnay out my nose (and most of my arugula salad) upon reading that sh!t

    and the sprinkling of bizzarro typos? classick

    Mr. Smith, you have to realize NL and knarly are Canadian, politeness is their most appealing virtue (plus those strong beers, eh?)

  76. shcb Says:

    When have I ever responded to a direct legitimate question? That’s easy, right above this. NL asked if I thought term limits would make a difference in the debt limit legislation, I answered. I don’t think I changed the subject, but merely kept pace with the conversation. Smith disagrees, fine. If I did change the subject I certainly didn’t do it to duck anything. If Smith would like to bring it back to the point he feels I ducked all he has to do is ask a direct question.

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