Frum on the Passage of Health Care Reform as Conservatives’ Waterloo

I normally don’t agree with much (okay, anything) David Frum has to say. But this sounds like a pretty credible take on the relationship between Tea Party-era conservatism, right-wing talk radio, and Republicans in Washington: Waterloo.

When Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted President Obama to fail, he was intelligently explaining his own interests. What he omitted to say – but what is equally true – is that he also wants Republicans to fail. If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush’s listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds.

103 Responses to “Frum on the Passage of Health Care Reform as Conservatives’ Waterloo”

  1. enkidu Says:

    paging Godwin, Godwin to the white courtesy telephone please

    Those of us who said there was a deal to be done, that there are a lot of parts of this bill that look familiar, that look like Mitt Romney’s plan, that look like plans Republicans proposed in 1993 and 1994, they look like things that were drafted at the Heritage foundation in 1990 and 1991, we can work with this, there are things we don’t like, [but] President Obama will pay a lot maybe for 20 or 30 Republican votes, let’s deal — that was shut down, we went the radical way, looking for Waterloo, and it looks like we arrived at Waterloo.

    …Some of the Republican leadership like Jim DeMint, I think did play a very hard-line role. Some of our leaders were trapped. They were trapped by voices in the media that revved the Republican base into a frenzy that made dealing impossible. I mean, you can’t negotiate with Adolf Hitler, and if the President is Adolf Hitler, then obviously you can’t negotiate with him. So some of the blame has has got to go to those who said, who got the psychology of the party to a point where a lot of good people, reasonable people were trapped.

    …We are encouraging a mood of radicalism in the party that is not just uncivil, that’s not the problem, the problem is it makes you stupid. It makes you make bad decisions, it leads you to think that President Obama with 53% of the vote is as beatable in 2009 as President Clinton with 42% of the vote in 1993, and that’s obviously not true.

    The Party of Nope

  2. Craig Says:

    Frum is being unrealistic and overly simplistic in his assessment of what Rush, or any other popular talking head needs to relevant. When was the last time any political party govern so successfully (and the loyal oppostion was so muted) that its media darlings and its listeners/viewers couldn’t get a raise out of something? The party in power will always have its narrative to trumpet for its followers to gladly echo. And it will always have its enemy available for mocking and for noting the latest outrage to be outraged about, regarding their actions.

    When the party is out of the power throne, the narratives are just as obvious.

  3. shcb Says:

    I also question how great a win this is for the Democrats, the didn’t get all they wanted by a long shot, they are banking on getting more in near future legislation, but if they couldn’t get it passed buried in 2000 pages how do they think they will get it on its own? Some more will get repealed in the courts. So in the end if they got 50% of what they wanted and lose the next election or two and Republicans roll back half of that is that a win? I guess it is, they have the ball rolling in the direction they want but I think you also have to say the Republicans have had a win as well, slowing the process down as much as they have while having absolutely no power. Say what you will about the Tea Parties and Rush, but they have just had the effect that Cronkite and the protesters did in the Viet Nam era.

  4. NorthernLite Says:

    Some of those reforms of the insurance industry are big wins… no doubt about it.

    Oh, and don’t be sending right-wing hate jobs up here, obviously they’re not welcome:–safety-fear-shuts-ann-coulter-speech?bn=1

  5. shcb Says:

    Hmmm, so who are the haters here?

    The insurance reforms in this bill are going to be very destructive to the insurance industry and the medical profession and they aren’t going to produce the intended positive outcomes after all the damage they do. But most of provisions don’t take effect for years to come (except the tax increases) so maybe we will have time to fix things before they get too screwed up.

  6. NorthernLite Says:

    I just thought that Ann Coulter story was funny… in that she’s all upset that we somehow silenced her right to free speech by peacefully protesting her views. Apparently she didn’t like having people who disagree with her expressing theirs views present so she backed out.

    Well if these reforms are going to make things worse as you seem to think then it should ensure that Dems are in the opposition for years to come. If on the other hand people are no longer denied insurance based on a pre-existing condition, no longer have their coverage cancelled when they actually get sick, costs go down because of the preventative wellness, children can stay on their parents coverage much longer, seniors have less out of pocket expenses then the GOP might be screwed for years.

    I guess we’ll see. But I’d be leery about running on a platform of repealing those things. Obama said it best yesterday: The reality of the reforms will now replace the rhetoric.

  7. shcb Says:

    Seniors are getting the best deal on paper, they are past the age of paying much in taxes, the cuts in Medicare that are supposed to pay for this thing aren’t going to happen so it will be their children and grandchildren that will get screwed. They will probably see a reduction in services, we’ll just have to see how well they take waiting in line, because they may not pay much anymore but they do vote.

    As far as people not being denied insurance, the way this is written it will make it very difficult to impossible for insurance companies to stay in business unless they have a larger pool, which is what the mandatory insurance requirement was supposed to do. But it won’t as written. The fines for not having insurance are too small, it will be much less expensive for a twenty something indestructible to simply pay the fine and then if he gets hurt or sick he can get insurance on the way to the hospital and the company can’t deny him, if it works for him what about single moms and the kids, owners of small companies, hell everyone. Insurance can’t survive under those circumstances, it depends on many people not using the service to pay for the few that do. So eventually, the insurance companies will go out of business and people like Nancy and Harry will be there to pull the industry into the arms of big government and we will all be happy socialists waiting in line dreaming of the long ago days of innovation and service.

    There are ways of fixing this problem, this isn’t it.

  8. shcb Says:

    your last statement is absolutely correct. the question isn’t if Democrats will lose in November, it is now how badly.

  9. NorthernLite Says:

    Like I said we’ll just have to see. Judging from the way this debate was carried out I’m a lot more inclined right now to believe what Dems say over Repubs.

  10. enkidu Says:

    The usual pattern is for the incumbent party to lose a few in the off year (ie non-presidential ballot) election.

    wwnj you are aware that some of the cuts to Medicare were made law by the Gingrich congress? Then put off by every congress since? Some changes are necessary to keep it solvent. Medicare has a 3% overhead (while covering the oldest and sickest among us), the for-profit insurance industry has a 30%+ overhead (while covering the healthiest among us). Paul Ryan’s (wingnut- WI) way to fix Medicare is to kill it. That’ll go over well with seniors. Here is an idea wwnj, if you hate Medicare so much, refuse it and keep paying your private insurance: be a real man of your convictions (no, not your arrest record).

    I’m not thrilled with the bill (no public option or even better single payer), but it is a good first step.

  11. NorthernLite Says:

    Yeah they really f*cked up with the Public Option. I don’t know why they didn’t include that in the bill.

  12. enkidu Says:

    one other note: interesting how neither Craig or wwnj object to (former gwb speechwriter) Frum’s framing: that if you call Obama hitler, then you can’t negotiate with him. The right wing really has lost its mind. And its balls.

  13. Craig Says:

    I was only commenting on the quote that John pulled out of the article. I didn’t read the full article itself in order to comment on anything else. But if Frum made an argument that by demonizing a political opponent, it then makes it tough to explain to a frenzied voting public just exactly why you negotiated any compromises with him, I’d say that it has some truth, politically. Same as when Democrats encouraged, or refused to tap down the persistent narrative of Bush being Hitler, or of him ultimately planning to turn the U.S. into a full-fledged theocracy. People on the hard-left certainly didn’t want any agreement with anything that was Administration- favored.

    The political circle of life is unending and wholly predictible.

  14. NorthernLite Says:

    Yes We Can!
    Hell No You Can’t!

  15. enkidu Says:

    “this is a big fucking deal”

    yes it is

    A victory for decency, a step towards better outcomes, a stride in the endless journey of human progress. From the heretics like Galileo and Rev Martin Luther King Jr, to the great men and women of all colors and creeds… yes, we can.
    yes, we will.

    I urge Rs everywhere to run against healthcare for children, against lower drug costs, against requiring ‘insurance’ companies to not drop the sick. I think Sarah Palin would be your ideal spokesperson. Run with it. Go crazy! (well… crazier)

  16. NorthernLite Says:

    Actually by the looks of it shit’s getting pretty crazy down there. Seriously…

    Somebody with authority (Obama?) needs to come right out and tell these people you lost the fucking (Biden? ;) elections, this is how democracy works. Dems campaigned on reforming health insurance, reforming the financial system, addressing climate change and now they’re following through on their promises.

    They hold the majorities. Just because you lost power through free and fair elections doesn’t give you the right to threaten and intimidate people and act like a pack of rabid wolves.

    Grow up and stop acting like a bunch of spoiled brats who lost all their marbles (pun intended).

  17. enkidu Says:

    I guess copying and pasting wwnj manifestos bumps my latest comment into the moderation queue. I’ll wait a day or two and see if it shows up.

  18. shcb Says:

    This is how democracy works, when you guys were out of power did you shut up and let us run things the way we wanted? No, hell no, you screamed to the heavens, and you won, we are doing the same. We have slowed a perfectly terrible idea and an even worse piece of legislation. We are forcing the Democrats to actually vote on this piece of legislation so the voters can have a track record to decide who they want in office, that is a good thing. The way the Democrats wanted to work this was to be able to say they voted one way but didn’t vote the other depending on how their particular constituency wanted them to vote regardless of how they actually voted.

    Obama is calling out the Republicans to overturn this legislation, now they will have to decide how much they can overturn and how much they can’t if they can win in November but what can and what will they promise in November? They have the opportunity, the majority of voters didn’t want this, they didn’t like the Democrats passed it, but can the Republicans capitalize? This is democracy my friend, wanting to squash the loyal opposition ability to speak out isn’t democracy.

  19. NorthernLite Says:

    I wasn’t referring to the shouting. I know that’s how democracy works.

    I was talking about the smashed windows, death threats, racial and other slurs being hurled, bullets being fired, gas lines being cut, nooses being faxed to black lawmakers…

    That’s NOT how democracy works.

  20. shcb Says:

    Not unlike what they did to Ann Coulter?

  21. NorthernLite Says:

    What? I didn’t realize that she was a lawmaker in my country and that we threatened her with death…

    She didn’t like the fact that protestors out numbered ticket holders 2-1 so SHE withdrew from the University of Ottawa event. Victory for intellect, loss for hate.

    Apparently she received a somewhat warmer welcome in conservative Calgary yesterday. Seems she thinks its fine when tea baggers yell at town halls but gets a little upset when the same happens at her events.

    Basically we chased her and her radical propaganda out this country so fast it made her head spin. Yup, pretty proud to be Canadian right now.

  22. shcb Says:


  23. enkidu Says:

    NL – isn’t Calgary part of Canada? ;-)
    seriously though, the irony here is beyond funny and gets into the territory of wtf

    Libertarian Militiaman Who Urged ‘Patriots’ To Break Windows?
    He’s On Government Disability

    “Before we go to guns…” whoopsie!
    “The pros and cons of the civil war” hello? you lost
    “tarring and feathering”
    “treason” “treason” “treason”
    “a sitting United States President who provokes a civil war…”
    “he gets himself assassinated”
    “he he he he ats what I’m talkin bout”

    The ridiculous and ironic juxtaposition of the quotes and the 1776 imagery is so far beyond ironic, I think there isn’t really a word for it. If his wife loses her job, they can get COBRA for healthcare (btw the RA stands for Reconciliation Act) or more probably Medicaid. I am sure he’ll be sucking down the Socialist Security and Medicare soon too.

    wwnjs: you lost an election, please don’t lose your mind
    we elect our government, participate civilly or move to Somalia
    this is my country as much as it yours wwnj
    your angry rhetoric isn’t improving America

    conservatism has become a sick parody of itself

  24. enkidu Says:

    edit: the juxtaposition of the 1776 quotes and imagery with the psycho audio

    even funnier? I clicked on the link to the WaPo, read a bit and there is an ad with a crazy old man sticking his tongue out selling life ‘insurance’

  25. NorthernLite Says:

    Ah this Coulter thing. Some of it is pretty funny.

    So at Western University in London, Ontario (my hometown, woot!) a young Muslim woman asks Ann since she thinks all Muslims should be banned from flying, and since she “doesn’t own a magic carpet” how should she get around? In true form, Ann replies “take a camel!”

    The next day, in Calgary, another young Muslim woman is shown protesting outside with a sign that reads: “Hey Ann I Don’t Have a Camel or a Magic Carpet. Can I Borrow Your Broom?” Good stuff!!

    And just to bring it back to the topic of the post, apparently Frum has been fired for speaking his mind…. from the “Freedom” Institute… or some lame name meant to imply patriotism.

  26. enkidu Says:

    TN Man Enraged By Obama Sticker Slams SUV Into Car With 10 Year Old Child Inside This is no ‘accident’ it is attempted murder.

    Actually I think this is entirely on topic: Frum is saying if you ramp up the rhetoric to the level of toxic bilge that is routine for wwnjs, anger and violence are the result.

    oh wait, i forgot, when wwnjs slam their plane into an IRS office, it is just an isolated incident. When wwnjs murder people in ‘liberal’ churches, why that is another isolated incident. When an abortion doctor is murdered in his church… isolated incident. Antigov whacko starts shooting people at the Pentagon… isolated incident. Smash the windows of Dem offices… isolated incident(s). Faxing nooses to black congresscritters? isolated incident(s). Scream n!gger and f!ggot at lawmakers… isolated incident(s) Assassination threats? isolated incident(s) Cutting the gas line to a congressman’s (oopsie, his brother and wife n kids home) perhaps hoping to blow the place to smitherenes? isolated incident

  27. Craig Says:

    How the Left fakes the hate: A primer
    by Michelle Malkin
    Creators Syndicate
    Copyright 2010

    If you can’t stand the heat, manufacture a hate crime epidemic.

    After years of covering racial hoaxes on college campuses and victim sob stories in the public arena, I’ve encountered countless opportunists who live by that demented mindset. At best, the fakers are desperately seeking 15 minutes of infamy. At worst, their aim is the criminalization of political dissent.

    Upon decimating the deliberative process to hand President Obama a health care “reform” victory, unpopular Beltway Democrats and their media water-carriers now claim there’s a Tea Party epidemic of racism, harassment, and violence against them. On Thursday, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi issued a tepid, obligatory statement against smearing all conservatives as national security threats. But her lieutenants had already emptied their tar buckets. Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee chairman Chris Van Hollen blamed Republican leaders of “stoking the flames.” Democrat House Whip James Clyburn accused the GOP of “aiding and abetting” what he called “terrorism.”

    Yet, the claims that Tea Party activists shouted “nigger” at black House Democrats remain uncorroborated. The coffin reportedly left outside Missouri Democrat Rep. Russ Carnahan’s home was used in a prayer vigil by pro-life activists in St. Louis protesting the phony Demcare abortion funding ban in President Obama’s deal-cutting executive order. Videotape of a supposed intentional spitting incident targeting Missouri Democrat Rep. Emanuel Cleaver at the Capitol shows no such thing. Cleaver himself backed off the claim a few days later. He described his heckler to the Washington Post in more passive terms as “the man who allowed his saliva to hit my face.” Slovenliness = terrorism!

    The FBI is now investigating the most serious allegation – that Tea Party activists in Virginia are somehow responsible for a cut gas line at the home of Democrat Rep. Tom Perriello’s brother. But instead of waiting for the outcome of that probe, liberal pundits have enshrined the claim as conclusive evidence of the Tea Party reign of terror.

    Need more reasons to treat the latest Democrat hysteria with a grain of salt the size of their gargantuan health care bill? Remember:

    *In November 2009, Kentucky Census worker Bill Sparkman was found dead in a secluded rural cemetery with the word “Fed” scrawled on his chest with a rope around his neck. The Atlantic Monthly, the Huffington Post, and liberal media hosts stampeded over themselves to blame Fox News, conservative blogs, Republicans, and right-wing radio. Federal, state, and local authorities discovered that Sparkman had killed himself and deliberately concocted a hate crime hoax as part of an insurance scam to benefit his surviving son.

    *In mid-October 2008, news outlets from Scranton, Pa., to ABC News, to the Associated Press and MSNBC reported that someone at a Sarah Palin rally shouted “Kill him” when Barack Obama’s name was mentioned. In fact, the Secret Service (which was at the event in full force) couldn’t find a single person to corroborate the story – other than the local reporter for the Scranton Times-Tribune who made an international incident out of the claim. Agent Bill Slavoski “said he was in the audience, along with an undisclosed number of additional secret service agents and other law enforcement officers and not one heard the comment,” the paper reported in a red-faced follow-up. Maybe the shouter is hiding with Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman’s real killer.

    *In late October 2008, a gaggle of liberal blogs spread the rumor that a Republican supporter of vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin’s had shouted that Barack Obama was “a nigger” during a campaign rally in Iowa. Video and first-hand accounts showed that the protester did not shout “he’s a nigger,” but “he’s a redistributor.” A lefty activist at the “progressive” Daily Kos blog confirmed the truth – but to this day, the crisis-manufacturing smear lies uncorrected and unretracted across the Internet.

    *In September 2009, supporters of Colorado Democrat Rep. John Salazar falsely accused a town hall protester of hurling a death threat at the congressman. Liberal blogs again disseminated the angry Tea Party mob narrative. A week later, the local press quietly reported that Grand Junction police had investigated the incident – and determined the claim was “unfounded.” A police spokeswoman revealed that “[p]eople who witnessed the interaction between the man who made the complaint and the suspect confirmed they never heard any direct threats made regarding Congressman Salazar; the witnesses included a Grand Junction cop “in close proximity when the interaction took place.”

    *In late August 2009, as lawmakers faced citizen revolts at health care town halls nationwide, the Colorado Democratic Party decried a vandalism attack at its Denver headquarters. A hammer-wielding thug smashed 11 windows and caused $11,000 in property damage. The perpetrator, Maurice Schwenkler, turned out to be a far Left nutball/transgender activist/single-payer anarchist who had worked for a SEIU-tied 527 group and canvassed for a Democrat candidate. Nevertheless, State Democrat Party chair Pat Waak continued to blame “people opposed to health care” for the attack.

    Then, as now, being a Democrat Party official means never having to say you’re sorry for smearing conservative dissent.

    I post this while knowing the following:

    Anything Malkin writes will be automatically discredited by many here, regardless of content.

    Malkin will have convieniently left out anecdotal cases that were clearly initiated by far-right extremists or loons tied to a conservative narrative.

    Malkin is an obvious partisan as a conservative supporter/apologist/shill, just as most other media notables are for their preferred ideology.

    It will not change the opinion of those who prefer to play the gotcha game anecdotal one-upsmanship.

    The point is, some of the things she mentions are being used by enkidu and being passed along as factual. Thus establishing that if enough untruths, or unprovens, are continued to be discussed as facts, they will be resistant to correction in the public discourse (this is not strictly a liberal fault, by the way).

    The problem with anecdotal-based arguments is that it reduces serious discussion to a Jerry Lewis telethon tote board of “which side is ahead in the loon count”. It also ignores the bigger truth that each side of an ideological difference is populated by humans, a portion of whom are asses and nut cases who will act out in ways that are politically leveraged to spotlight how one side contains “the crazy ones”. A pointless and unending loop, which resolves nothing.

  28. shcb Says:


    I’m a little curious why you posted this down here and not under the thread Enky just started?

    I still smile when I hear NL justify threats to Coulter but decry threats to Democrats, just because he doesn’t like her opinion. Since she’s not an elected official it is ok justify threats of violence, but what can she do but talk? She can’t pass a law that affects someone’s life. She could say something that would trigger a violent reaction that would get a crazy to kill someone like Obama’s confidant Al Sharpton did, but in the Democrat world that gets you invited to the White House. Look, as inflammatory and anti Semitic as Sharpton’s words were it was the crazy man that killed those people, so yes it will happen. To the extent racism is alive and well in America we don’t need people like Sharpton creating Tawana Brawley’s, and to the extent a few crazies are going to threaten lawmakers we don’t need to create incidents that didn’t happen.

  29. enkidu Says:

    craig, your big rejoinder is… Malkin?
    you sir have lost your moral compass (did you ever have one?)

    confirmed facts:
    wwnj IRS plane terrorist – fact

    liberal church killer – fact
    read this if you have the stomach

    Dr Tiller murdered in his church – fact

    anti-gov whacko shooting up Pentagon train station – fact

    militia moran on disability inciting teabaggers to smash D windows – fact

    faxing nooses to D lawmakers – fact

    screaming racial and anti-gay epithets – no video yet one way or the other, but more than one D confirmed this was the case, multiple witnesses (oh right they are Ds so craig/malkin doesn’t believe their eyewitness account)

    assassination threats – this cuts both ways, but it is a fact

    cutting the gas line to a congressman’s house hoping to blow it to smithereens – on going investigation
    curious tho that the gas line is severed the night after wwnj teabaggers publish this address and suggest wwnjs ‘visit’. I suppose it is ok since they targeted the congress critter’s brother (and wife and children) by mistake

    wwnj freaks out at obama biden bumper sticker and attempts to murder man and his 10 year old daughter – fact

    So out of my list of examples exactly two haven’t been confirmed by law enforcement or other non-partisan sources as a wwnj hate crime.

    Or you could do like Eric Cantor and just manufacture some vandalism of your own: he claimed a bullet was fired through his office window. Only problem? The Law investigated and found it was a random bullet fired into the air. It didn’t hit his office window. It hit the bottom floor of an office bldg where his office is on the top floor.

    So, craig/malkin… how many more libtards have to die before it is ok for normal folk to stand up and say enough is enough? wwnjs have been murdering my people in increasing numbers.

    You don’t bother to even deny (former bush speech writer!) David Frum’s Obama=h!tler framing… pathetic in the extreme.


  30. Craig Says:

    You’ll notice that I qualified my Malkin article by specifically stating that people would discredit the article even before reading it, because of who wrote it. You may (or may not) have noticed that I acknowledged Malkin’s partisan political bias (what media political analyst doesn’t have an ideological filter with which they write from?). You are naive to the extreme if you think “your side” is all about truth to power. ALL media political opinion is bias to some extent. Anyone who just reads those whose opinions they like, are political children (to use John’s favorite analogy).

    It frankly gets old when people call out others for using a partisan blog/author/website to make their point, and then bloster their own opinion by submitting equally slanted sites (e.g., crooks-and-liers which is no better than Newsbusters, in terms of worthwhile analysis). Just how much credit for unbiased insight would you give to a website called

    I believe that I commented on your Frum-Obama-Hitler question earlier, but you seem to have missed it.

    The bigger point which seems to be getting missed is that anecdotal gotcha games do NOTHING to move the needle in terms of worthwhile political discourse. Much of the time such stories are twisted and continued to be used by one side over another, even if they have been debunked. Its like two kids in a mudpit, vying for the “least filthy” award. The “winner” is hardly distinguishable from the loser.

    Some may find it to be a fun diversion, but it has no real usefulness.

  31. enkidu Says:

    wow craig/malkin you sure are an easy mark
    the entirety of my malkin comment consists of three letters: l o l
    yet you fell for it hook, line, sinker, float, rod n reel

    perhaps you didn’t – you know – actually read that link other than to dismiss it because it said something you didn’t like (o’reillysucks). Yet if you had actually bothered to click the link and read it, you would have found the actual words of the liberal church shooter.
    is a link to the actual scans of the wwnj shooter’s ‘manifesto’. I urge you to read it if you have the stomach (or in your case craig/malkin, the spine).

    The words are simply transcribed on o’ and easier to read (other than their actual content). The content of the liberal church shooter’s manifesto hasn’t been twisted by the media: quite the opposite. The media tried real hard to pretend this never happened. isn’t some pinko commie sociamalistical dirty f’ing hippie site (as far as I can tell). Final irony here? wwnj Adkison was on food stamps (sounds a lot like that wwnj who was urging teabaggers to smash the windows of Dem offices – he’s on government paid disability…. just another ‘coincidence’ eh?)

    My list of wwnj violence isn’t opinion and bias, it is a simple factual list of wwnj violence, terrorism, murder and attempted murder. True, the gasline cutting incident is still under investigation, but unless the congressman’s brother had security cameras everywhere, it’ll be near impossible to finger the perps. But of course the wwnj who published that address for targeted teabagger ‘action’ is just a heck of coincidence, right? Nothing to see here folks? Sorry craig/malkin, but that just doesn’t pass even the most biased of sniff tests.

    Until decent ‘conservatives’ reject this Obama=h!tler stuff, reject these constant calls to violence (by elected officials, foxnewts bloviators and teabaggers) your whole whinging nonsense about “move the needle in terms of worthwhile political discourse” isn’t worth the electrons it takes to display it.

    You are wrestling with yourself down in that mudpit, craig/malkin.
    And you are losing.

  32. Craig Says:

    I’m not going to get into a back-and-forth with you since you seem to prefer to label people and talk past them rather than engage in a meaningful way one-to-one. As long as you insist in seeing one group as the bad behavior guys who need to straighten up to your level before anything discussion can occur, then nothing tangible will happen.

    Calls for conservatives to end their Obama-Hitler links during their protests such look embarrassingly slanted after nearly 8 years of protest signs of Bush-Hitler, and Kill Bush, and Bush calling off elections to form a full-fledged theocracy!! Can you imagine a foreign documentary-maker today promoting his new docu-drama in which Obama is assassinated?? Many liberals were not sure why people should be offended by that film when it featured Bush being killed. “Why its just silly to think that it promotes violence against a sitting President, and that those who would want to see it weren’t at some level enjoying a violent hate-fanasty on film.”

    Both Hitler connections are wrong and are simplistic, unthinking attempts to tarnish someone in an inflammatory way.

    I’ll say it again. Anecdotal arguments are pointless and insure that discussions are forever on an endless loop of fruitless debate. No one is a winner in such arguments.

  33. enkidu Says:

    So craig/malkin, you are saying it is OK to call Obama h!tler because his trying to improve the overly-expensive-yet-fails-to-cover-everyone healthcare system is equivalent to bush launching an illegal and immoral invasion based on a pack of lies?

    Invading other countries is way more h!tler than trying to fix the healthcare mess.

    So now American liberals need to answer for foreign fictional films? wtf?

    You jumped the shark a long time ago.

    Calling the increasing wwnj violence ‘anecdotal’ fails to even tangentially address the root cause: wwnj anger fueled by jokers like you saying ‘o them dirty libs is just the same!’ I invite you to make a similar list of extremist lwnj violence (and my list is current, within the last two years…) go ahead, make that list, I’d love to see it.

    I’m having a discussion with you right now, I just wish you could say that wwnjs are indeed ramping up the violence and it needs to stop. You aren’t saying that. Instead you are trying to draw a false equivalency. Or pretend it just isn’t happening. It is and you are doing your biased best to pretend it isn’t.

  34. NorthernLite Says:

    shcb, please point to where I justified threats against Coulter.

  35. enkidu Says:

    this’ll be fun
    I suppose it’ll be easy for you to scour the intertubes for the heinous crimes of lefties… not. NL was celebrating reasonable Canadians protesting unreasoning wwnj hatred. gosh!

    I think craig/malkin is going to have a real hard time finding all that lwnj murder and mayhem. And remember, we’re talking about American lwnj hate crimes, not something Castro said to give rush or beck or mike ‘savage’ their morning wood.

    I’ll start you off: a couple bricks were thrown through the window of a GOP office. No arrests, can’t tell if this was a dirty f’ing hippy covert op or a false flag ‘attack’ (judging by the timing, the latter). I think it is the wrong thing to do to GOP offices, even in retaliation. Wrong. Regardless, I still want wwnjs to ramp down the violence. Smashing the windows of the ______s isn’t patriotic, it’s Kristalnacht.

    But please craig/malkin if you can find all those instances of a left winger, angered by left wing bloviators who murdered a bunch of people in their church for their tolerance, inclusiveness and outreach to the oppressed, well I’d like to hear about it. Just make sure it is in the last few years and the perp was American. Cheers!

    Only problem? You won’t. Why? Because normal folk don’t shoot up churches, murder doctors and froth at the mouth about Secession.

  36. NorthernLite Says:

    There’s also a big difference between talking heads saying things about each other and elected officials saying insightful things.

    I keep hearing that “the American people are angry about this” as some kind of justification for the crazy shit that’s been going on lately and that Bush was called some pretty nasty things when he was in office.

    And they’re right. Americans were super pissed over the Iraq invasion and Bus was called some nasty names. But if I recall, they didn’t resort to violence and threats. They channelled their anger at the ballot box and they gave the Dems control of the House, Senate and White House. If the majority of the American people are truly angry about this health care bill then the opposite will happen.

    That’s how democracy works.

  37. shcb Says:

  38. enkidu Says:

    wwnj – ?

  39. shcb Says:

    Nl wanted to know where he justified threats to Coulter, sorry, I was busy, I should have waited until I had more time to explain

  40. NorthernLite Says:

    Was that supposed to be reference to me/Canadians threatening Coulter? The protest was peaceful, dude. Please try again.

    And even if I did say something threatening towards her why would you compare that (joe blow me talking smack about somebody who talks smack for a living) to political and party leaders inciting hate and violence, death threats, racial/sexual hate speech, smashing windows, etc.?

    But if you really want to know, I think Ann was at one time a man. That jaw-bone ain’t fooling anybody…

  41. enkidu Says:

    nice adam’s apple

  42. shcb Says:

    All I can go by is the news report, and it said the organizers told her they couldn’t guarantee her safety so somebody must have been threatening.

  43. shcb Says:

    Why would it matter if she were once a man? She/he doesn’t get to have an opinion after the operation? Hmm, glad I’m not as open minded as liberals.

  44. enkidu Says:

    funny how wwnj and lefty are so cool with LGBT issues, you might think they would support liberal efforts to gain better hate crime protections, equal rights, marriage equality and so forth. Oh wait, they are both strident wwnjs who tirelessly apologize for narrow minded wwnj hate speech and judicial activism to deny these very same essential human rights. pwnd

    How is saying Andy has a nice adam’s apple not open minded?
    Some of our best friends are _______s. ;-)
    I don’t care what gender Ann/Andy is: his/her virulent hate speech is loathsome in the extreme. His/her calls for arab genocide, intolerance and similar angry wwnj garbage is what normal people object to.

    Hey did you hear Michael Steel (or some GOPr consultant?) was caught spending almost $2000 at a leather and domination strip club down in LA?

    Which reminds me of that CA lawmaker and his stridently anti-gay agenda…
    busted DUI after leaving a gay club with a ‘companion’

    geez if you guys would just come out of the closet and accept these things we’d all be better off. Less repression and anger, more acceptance and understanding. It’s the liberal way.

    Me, I thought NL’s recounting of the whole: camel, magic carpet, broom thing was extremely funny. touché Canada touché!

  45. Smith Says:

    It appears as though shcb was the first person in this discussion to suggest that transsexuals do not have a right to an opinion. What a surprise.

  46. enkidu Says:

    oh snap!

  47. Craig Says:

    I regret having to come back to this thread one more time, But I get pissed when someone deliberately and blatently misrepresents my words.

    I said: “Both Hitler connections are wrong and are simplistic, unthinking attempts to tarnish someone in an inflammatory way.”

    Enkidu’s response was: “So craig/malkin, you are saying it is OK to call Obama h!tler because his trying to improve the overly-expensive-yet-fails-to-cover-everyone healthcare system is equivalent to bush launching an illegal and immoral invasion based on a pack of lies?”

    Either you’re hard of reading, or you deliberately misstate my very clear statement. Which is it?

  48. shcb Says:


  49. NorthernLite Says:

    That news report was BS, shcb. She was under no threat. She just didn’t wan to be challenged. But if people were making threats towards her that’s not right.

    Like I said though, holding a bunch of college kids and Ann Coulter to the same standards as politicians and party leaders is a little strange to me. Coulter makes a living inciting hate.

    So what do they do when a race is rained out? Reschedule?

  50. enkidu Says:

    golly craig/malkin, for someone who is so nasty about other posters lack of wwnj reading skills, you seem to have missed some basic English grammar and punctuation training. Here let me help you – I’ll bold the bits that are most important (for the ‘hard of reading’ wwnj)

    So craig/malkin, you are saying it is OK to call Obama h!tler because his trying to improve the overly-expensive-yet-fails-to-cover-everyone healthcare system is equivalent to bush launching an illegal and immoral invasion based on a pack of lies? <- see the question mark?

    Clearly a question, not a statement. But continue to savage that strawman down in your mudpit. Frum (bush’s speechwriter fer gawds sake!) makes the ‘Obama=h!tler so negotiation is impossible’ observation. sheesh!

    How is your Big List of Evil Liberal Murder and Mayhem coming along?
    Found anything yet?

    NL the answer to your question is wwnjs whine like a bunch of babies on blogs and Meet The Press.

  51. NorthernLite Says:


  52. shcb Says:

    yeah, the race was yesterday, they will try Monday and Tuesday, then move it to the end of the year.

    “The news report was bs”. Were you there? You guys have crazies on your side too, and some of them live in your country.

  53. shcb Says:

    BTW, Hamlin won, great finish, you can see the last few laps on

  54. NorthernLite Says:

    Oh for sure there are crazies everywhere, no denying that.

    But if somebody from say, the Progressive Conservative Party I tend to vote for here in Ontario, were to start saying the shit I’ve been hearing I would let them know right away that I will not support a party that encourages, participates in or incites that kind of stuff. This ain’t the 1800s we voice our displeasure at the ballot box, not by hurling vulgar insults, making threats and destroying property.

    I guess that’s the difference between us.

    Anyways, things seem to be calming down, so that’s good to see.

    I caught the “Top 10 Finishes” when it was raining on Sunday, pretty cool.

  55. shcb Says:

    So let me bring back in Al Sharpton, to date I don’t think what Coulter has said has let to a bunch of people dying, I don’t think she has trumped up a court case that incited riots, and I think she has a law degree. I’m not defending everything she says, I just think she should be able to say it without being threatened. She isn’t the first conservative to have the stage rushed or be shouted down, that kind of thing happens more with conservatives than liberals. Conservatives just aren’t very good at protesting, which is one reason this is such a big deal, we don’t do it very often.

  56. NorthernLite Says:

    You seem more concerned with a bunch of college kids protesting outside a hall (there were no threats, she chickened out) than you are with actual violence and threats, from both sides, taking place in your politics down there. Doesn’t that stuff bother you?

    And yes, Conservatives tend to suck at protesting. But what they’re doing is not protesting.

    There’s a difference between protesting and being an enraged sore loser.

  57. enkidu Says:

    wwnj – since you must have missed it the first time, here is the link for the liberal church shooter’s manifesto. Sounds like boys have been drinking from the same tainted well.

    Inside the shooter’s house, officers found ‘Liberalism is a Mental Health Disorder’ by Michael Savage, ‘Let Freedom Ring’ by Sean Hannity, and ‘The O’Reilly Factor,’ by Bill O’Reilly.

    No word on if Coulter’s angry right wing tomes were found.
    What was Coulter’s quote about discussing issues with liberals?
    oh right:

    LINDA VESTER (host): You say you’d rather not talk to liberals at all?

    COULTER: I think a baseball bat is the most effective way these days.
    [FOX News Channel, DaySide with Linda Vester, 10/6]

    har har har! yup, no incitement to violence there

    Look if you want to discuss a single case from 23 years ago, then can we discuss all the other cases where real rapes happened? Where real racism exists? You really shouldn’t open that can of worms. No one is defending someone who cried wolf and then got some wolf legal counsel.

  58. shcb Says:

    No, you misunderstood me, and that is my fault, I haven’t been clear enough, but we’ve been through this enough in past discussions I didn’t think I needed to repeat myself.

    If there are idiots out there legitimately threatening these politicians they should be arrested and appropriately punished, same if they were threatening Coulter, and all I can do is go by the news reports and they said the organizers asked here to not show up, this isn’t the first time this has happened to conservatives so there is a track record, I don’t know why you think they were just there to peacefully protest, seems someone tought there was danger there.

    Democrats won the last election, they have the right to pass whatever legislation they want as long as it is done constitutionally. As far as I can see most of this was done properly and what wasn’t will be tested in court, as legislation in the past has been done by both parties. Now earlier in the process some of the tricks Democrats had talked about doing was not constitutional, conservatives were correct in pointing that out by yelling from the rooftops. Now they are voicing their opinions that this legislation is wrong even though it was correctly voted on (for the most part), that’s ok. Just as you thought Iraq was wrong, we think socialized healthcare is wrong. What 99.9% of the people are doing is protesting, take the handful that are violent and toss them in jail, just let me do the same when your folks get out of hand.


    What happened to this shooter? Was he killed on the spot or is he on death row? I don’t care, either is fine with me. You seem to think I am condoning these actions, I’m not, I was just pointing out that NL seemed to be fine with Coulter being threatened, he clarified that some a couple posts ago.

    I know NL doesn’t want Coulter hurt or even threatened, and Coulter isn’t going to hit someone with a bat, and doesn’t want anyone else to either, it’s a figure of speech. Don’t paint conservatives with such a broad stroke.

  59. shcb Says:

    Forgot about your last paragraph, do any of those cases you want me to look at in the last 23 years involve someone that a president has used as an advisor? Were those perpetrators you are referring to punished or are they on talk shows on a regular basis?

  60. NorthernLite Says:

    Yeah my whole point is that’s what Coulter and Rush are paid to do, incite hate and push people’s buttons. That’s how they make millions. I know this. We all know this.

    I just thought it was starting to get scary when windows started being smashed, bullets flying, nooses being faxed… etc. But like I said, it seems to be calming down so that’s good. Except for this anti-government militia I just read about… wow.

  61. enkidu Says:

    wwnj – my whole point is that your rhetoric (impaled at the stake or worse… numerous violent fantasies… death threats… etc) and the hate speech from loons like Coulter or Mike ‘Savage’ or rush or beck (see the pattern here?) incites violence.

    The church shooter’s manifesto reads like one of your posts.
    Or nearly any wwnj post from say 4 or 5 years ago.
    The guy’s library looks just like yours.
    see the pattern here?

    Maybe you and craig/malkin could work together to make up a list of all the american lwnj murder and mayhem in the last 2 years.

  62. shcb Says:


    I really don’t mean this as a tit for tat statement, but your rants could be said the same. Don’t go and give me a bunch of examples, I mean if you want go ahead, but it is just wasting your time, your rants are just as inflammatory, but no one that hears you is going to go do violence just because you said something, and if they do it is their responsibility.

    Someone unstable can be set off by the word “blue”. I’ve listened to Rush for years, not recently, last couple years or so but for maybe a decade before that I would say I listened to him at least 10 hours a week, I never heard him say anything that made me want to go cause violence to anyone. I just don’t see this as anything more than political one-upsmanship. The reason I’ve stopped watching Hannity is because this is his type of tactic, take an isolated incident and paint the whole group with the same brush, now sometimes that is correct, but there needs to more of a pattern than one or two bad apples.

  63. shcb Says:


    There are plenty of people on the left that are paid to do the same, ever hear Woopie or Randi Rhodes? The afore mentioned Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, then we have the bomber guy from the ‘70s whose name escapes me, Michael Moore, the list goes on.

  64. enkidu Says:

    Please cite a single example of my inciting violence.

    I cited a half dozen high profile murders and hate crimes by wwnjs against normal people/liberals. I am tired of hearing ‘isolated incident’ when these things are getting more and more violent and frequent. wwnj rhetoric is violent, aggressive and getting more so.

    So should we have waited until those militia nutbars killed a cop and then bombed the funeral before exposing that wwnj terrorist plot?

    jes a few bad apples (wink!) jes a turn of a (violent) phrase (wink!) har har

  65. NorthernLite Says:

    I’ve said several times on this post that there are wackos all across the spectrum. I guess a big difference seems to be the followers of these folks and how serious they take the word of said wackos.

    I think I discovered why you were misinformed on the whole Coulter thing. This pretty much sums it up.

    Coulter and her promoters canceled the show on their own. There were no imminent signs of mob violence or threats of personal harm, just good old-fashioned, raucous, campus-style debate. But faced with a boisterous crowd, Coulter took her marbles and went home, while her conservative allies concocted tales of looming left-wing violence and feasted on the publicity.

  66. knarlyknight Says:

    Michael Moore promotes such violence against his political opponents? Seriously shcb, you’ve overstretched your mind past the breaking point.

  67. shcb Says:

    Knarly and Enky,

    My point is that the things you (Enky) and Moore say can be construed in such a way as to incite violence just as much as anything Coulter and Rush have ever said.

    NL, that isn’t what the report I read said, so someone must not be telling the truth.

  68. shcb Says:

    Here is the bottom line, in a free society, anytime you allow someone to speak, you risk someone will listen.

  69. enkidu Says:

    by disagreeing with wwnj bs I have incited violence?
    so you are saying because I don’t go along with wwnutjobbery I am bringing these violent acts upon myself? really?

    you’ve personally threatened me with death more than once wwnj
    please point out even once where the reverse is true

    knowing my Canadians as I do (heck, they’re family) I think the news report that NL cites is true while the right wingers are up to their usual lying bs

  70. enkidu Says:

    btw – to all the wwnjs who say the spitting and epithets aren’t real
    watch as a fat white wwnj spits on a black congressman

    still say this isn’t happening?

    me, I am proud the congress walked right through these wwnjs on the way to work: don’t let the right wing nutbars intimidate you or it’ll just get worse.

    who wants to bet that fat@$$ tigerpetter is on the dole? anyone?

  71. shcb Says:

    “by disagreeing with wwnj bs I have incited violence?” I’ll play, where did I say this?

    here is a hint “My point is that the things you (Enky) and Moore say can be construed in such a way as to incite violence just as much as anything Coulter and Rush have ever said. ”

    a bigger hint “can be construed”

    think really hard

  72. enkidu Says:

    I’ll ask again, think really hard
    you’ve personally threatened me with death more than once wwnj
    please point out even once where the reverse is true

  73. shcb Says:

    How would I possibly threaten you, I don’t even know what state you are in.

    but as usual you are missing my point and misstating my comments, as Craig asks, on purpose?

  74. NorthernLite Says:

    Interesting headline buried on Foxnews’ site:

    Climate-Gate Probe Clears Scientists

    Investigators find no evidence to support charges that the Climatic Research Unit or its director tampered with data

  75. enkidu Says:

    NL – reading fox is funny, they really wear their hyperpartisanship right out there on their sleeve, like a red arm band of stupid. yes yes two dozen emails (out of 22,000) might be ‘construed’ (twisted) as some possible wrong doing. More likely just some belly aching whinging about all the nonsense anti-CC crowd.

    wwnj – ‘how could you possibly threaten me’? With words.
    you’ve personally threatened me with death more than once wwnj
    please point out even once where the reverse is true

  76. shcb Says:

    We’re not being very accurate here are NL? One day of oral testimony? one phone call could have done that. “Mr Jones?” “please call me Phil” “oh, quite pleasant of you Phil, so Phil, did you do anything wrong?” “no, heavens no, I’m a respected scientist, I would never do anything wrong” “well, I guess we are finished here Phil, thank you for your time” “no problem sir, glad I could be of assistance” click. “Marge, would you type up this report for me? I’m off to play cricket”

  77. shcb Says:

    With death!!!!! really!!!!! do tell

  78. NorthernLite Says:

    shcb, this was a Public Inquiry ordered by Parliament, no?

    Do you think your 9/11 Inquiry was full of shit?

  79. enkidu Says:

    lessee… wwnj death-threats:

    impalin (or worse – your phrase, it stuck with me)

    those are the ones I can recall off the top of my head

    again (and again and again…)
    please point out even once where the reverse is true

    I think we should all wait for the results of the other two investigations on the climate email theft. In all probability, there was no wrong-doing, no vast climate conspiracy to destroy western civilization (by saving it? huh?) A single day of oral testimony seems a bit thin (tho faux trumpets it like the deal is done, the coverup complete, blah blah blah)

    also, will the people who stole these things (breaking various laws to be sure) ever be prosecuted if the scientists are found not guilty?

  80. shcb Says:

    911 investigation was more than 1 day of oral testimony. I think some of it was BS, most wasn’t, I’ve read it and it seemed pretty reasonable.

    Enky your threat bar is set way, way too low.

  81. NorthernLite Says:

    I would hope it was longer, the 9/11 inquiry was just tad more important than a lame right-wing attempt to discredit thousands of honourable scientists and decades worth of research.

  82. enkidu Says:


    I guess when you are really really *really* REALLY angry, spelling is the first thing to go, then penmanship, then sanity? Or do I have that backwards?

    Any coincidence that a clear majority of the people in this set are fat, white, old and angry? craig/malkin are you in this set? wwnj?

    Some favs:

    Remember descent the highest form of patriotic
    (a mind is a terrible thing to waste)

    The borror is the slave of the lender. How do your chains feel America?
    (mimsy where the borrorgroves?)

    (note – giant confederate flag out front)
    I’m a mavrik how about you? also miss-spelled socialest on another sign…
    (three strikes and you are a moran)

    I am joe the plummer
    (dumber n dumber!)

    Birth CERTiFiet Where OBAMA
    (maybe the capital letters give it some meaning that eludes me…)

    (Please lady, those capital letters are hurting my eyes! Plus, you and gramps are on Medicare, so just go home, enjoy your Social Security and vote in November, OK? cheers!)

  83. shcb Says:


    I guess we have a different definition of honorable.

  84. enkidu Says:

    as well as spelling it differently

  85. shcb Says:

    well, given the nuns pathetic results to date, mine is probably wrong

  86. NorthernLite Says:

    Actually we’re both right. Canada’s version of english usually has a “u” in words like “honourable”, “colour” :)

    Microsoft finally realized this with Windows XP lol.

  87. shcb Says:

    Hey, Microsoft is an American company, so the American version of the English language is correct, end of story. We’re so flippin arrogant.

    I read the other day that XP has been out there for almost a decade now, I was shocked.

  88. NorthernLite Says:

    Ya, it was released in 2001… hard to believe!

    The language thing was a serious problem. You know when you type in MS Word and it underlines misspelled words? Well it was confusing a lot of people up here… especially children and those that live close to the border and get American TV signals. People would be like, “that’s not spelled wrong!” in their heads but weren’t quite sure. So now we have the option to set the language to English (Canadian).

  89. NorthernLite Says:

    By the way, complaining about shit is one of national pastimes. :)

  90. shcb Says:

    yeah, the old line was that captains of sailing ships didn’t mind the men complaining and mumbling, they got worried when they stopped complaining.

    Back to MS, it seems that the spell and grammour (is that right?) check of the later versions of operating systems or programs like Word will not flag words as they become popular, they must be updating the data bases when they do the magical updates at 2:00 in the morning.

  91. NorthernLite Says:

    I think you spelled that wrong in both countries, in Canada its “grammar”… pretty sure that’s what it is down there too.

    Yeah, gotta love when MS releases a product that’s not even finished and then tries to sneak in “updates” when in fact these “updates” should have been discovered/developed before the damn thing was released!

  92. shcb Says:

    Damn nuns, even with a 50/60 chance of getting it right in one country they couldn’t teach me to spell right. At least they I lernt math good.

  93. NorthernLite Says:


    Speaking of funny…

    You just can’t make this shit up!

  94. enkidu Says:

    hey craig/malkin and wwnj how you good ol boys doing on your Big List of Evil Liberal Murder and Mayhem? (past 2 years, usa only)

    you guys must be too busy on that hotline to be bothered with, ya know, facts

  95. knarlyknight Says:

    Unfortunately, this ain’t made up either:

    The Justice Department has quietly recanted nearly every major claim the Bush administration made about Abu Zubaydah, the alleged al-Qaeda leader who was the first suspected terrorist subjected to the torture of waterboarding and other White House-approved “enhanced interrogation techniques.”
    In a federal court filing, Justice backed away from the Bush administration’s statements that Zubaydah had helped plan the 9/11 attacks and was a close confidant to al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, as well as even earlier claims from the Clinton administration that he was directly involved in planning the 1998 embassy bombings in East Africa.
    The US government’s retreat underscores yet another problem with President George W. Bush’s use of torture. Besides its illegality and immorality, torture can be applied to suspected terrorists who have been falsely identified and who thus don’t possess the expected information, which can lead frustrated interrogators to escalate the torture until the subject provides something, whether true or not.
    Wonder what Fox has to say about that, and at what level it is profiled.

  96. enkidu Says:


    we (I almost wrote “they” but it is America under bush that did this) waterboarded this guy 87 times for 9 pieces of information, of which one was maybe useful. They were already having success with persuasive rather than coercive techniques. But bushie and the neocons wanted an excuse for war with Iraq, so they tortured this (admittedly bad) guy until he barfed up something the bush regime could use to get their war on.

    Why on earth is Obama dealing with these some wwnj nutbars? These criminals should be in orange jumpsuits, chains and hannibal lector masks.

    So craig/malkin and wwnj, if ‘left wing’ American violence is sooooo widespread, where is the Very Big List? You punks got nothing.

  97. shcb Says:

    What is it you want?

  98. knarlyknight Says:

    Sadly, people have this mental construct of the Bush adminstration’s fight against terrorism that is based nearly entirely on outrageous boasts by torturers (aka the Bush administration.) Even when the truth comes out the twisted mental construct remains…
    For example, Zubaydah is sort of pathetic, not the terrible adversary as Bush claimed:

    When asked about what the 9/11 Commission was told regarding Zubaydah, Mickum suggested that the panel was lied to by the CIA.
    “After torturing our client, the CIA knew he was never a member of al-Qaeda and that he had no knowledge of any al-Qaeda terrorist activities,” Mickum said. “And this fact was confirmed after other members of al-Qaeda like [Khalid Sheikh Mohammed] and the [alleged mastermind of the USS Cole bombing] al-Nashiri were tortured.”

    In an interview last year, Jack Cloonan, a former FBI special agent assigned to the agency’s elite bin Laden unit, said the CIA and the Bush administration were flat wrong in designating Zubaydah as a top official in al-Qaeda.
    “To cast him and describe him as the al-Qaeda emir or leader for the subcontinent or worse … I think was a mistake. … Based on his age and ethnicity, [he] would [n]ever be brought into the inner circle of al-Qaeda,” Cloonan said.
    There was also the question of Zubaydah’s personality. “My partner had a chance to look at a lot of Abu Zubaydah’s diaries [which forms the basis of the government’s case], poems and other things that he has written and he said that after reading this you just come away with the feeling that this is a guy who can’t be trusted or be given huge amounts of responsibility.”
    Zubaydah began keeping a diary in 1992, after he suffered a severe head injury while fighting communist forces in Afghanistan. The injury left “significantly impaired both his long- and short-term memory,” states a Jan. 14, 2009, motion his attorneys filed related to his diaries.
    “Long after his 1992 injury, once [Zubaydah] had recovered the ability to speak and write, he began to keep a diary. It is his memory. Without it, he is lost.”
    The diary now appears to be the chief element of the US government’s remaining case against him.

  99. enkidu Says:

    wwnj – aren’t you and craig/malkin done with your Really Big List of Very Terrible Left Wing Violence, Murder and Mayhem?

    good golly gosh it must be really long if it has taken you guys so long to put it all together

    you two fools have nothing

  100. enkidu Says:

    still waiting for that Really Big List (golly it must be HUGE!)

    found anything yet?

  101. Smith Says:

    I found a list of lists. Does that help?

  102. enkidu Says:

    sigh, nope

    If left wing nutters are every bit as crazy, angry and violent, why can’t craig/malkin and wwnj come up with even a single example?

    You could say pinkie biter was a violent lwnj, but I think that one is actually a toss up at the worst, perhaps even more of an example of wwnj violence: the bite-ee sucker punched the bite-er and then tried to gouge his eyes out. Only after being attacked did the bite-er retaliate by biting the attacker’s hand (as it was tearing at his face, attempting to gouge his eyes out etc). Defending yourself against an attacker would seem to be a basic human right.

  103. Craig Says:

    Lost in all the ensuing pointlessness of this thread, I believe that Enkidu was originally trying to suggest that David Frum himself was comparing Obama to Hitler. If so, that is a totally erroneous reading of what Frum was saying.

    Frum was suggesting that many Republican leaders might feel compelled to oppose Obama and his initiatives because the conservative media has built up a Obama=Hitler narrative in the minds of most conservative voters. Therefore, they don’t want to be seen as having compromised on legislation with “Hitler”, and thus lose their voter support.

    Frum is actually making a supportive argument for a good deal of liberal thinking regarding the reason for the current political hard-line partisanship.

    I personally think Frum is overreaching on this particular point. Republican leadership has not been afraid to work with Obama because they think people will say that they are negotiating with Hitler. They aren’t working with him because they have a fundamental disagreement with his policies, and they feel that they have the momenteum of voter preference on their side.

    This is a pure political calculation, for better or worse.

    Is it good governance for the people as a whole? No, but it’s the path our political system has been on for some time now.

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