Noah Does the Math on Hillary’s Chances

From Timothy Noah in Slate: Hillary Clinton, Fairy Princess:

Here’s a rule I would like every political reporter, campaign official, TV talking head, and politician in the United States to follow. Go ahead and say, if you like, that Hillary Clinton retains a serious chance of winning the Democratic nomination. If you say this, however, you must describe a set of circumstances whereby this could happen. Try not to make it sound like a fairy tale.

He goes on to explore this in detail. For an Obama supporter, it’s a reassuring exercise.

159 Responses to “Noah Does the Math on Hillary’s Chances”

  1. shcb Says:

    The one thing that Noah doesn’t take into consideration is how the general public including soft Republicans and Independents poll closer to the election. I think this will play more into the decision of the super delegates than the popular vote in the primaries or the pledged delegate count. Remember the super delegates were instituted by Democrats after the far left nominated an anti war liberal, Mondale, during an unpopular war. He was trounced, loosing every state but Massachusetts. The purpose of the super delegates is to keep this from happening again, they are for the most part political insiders who understand politics. It will be up to them to determine who is the most elect able.

  2. enkidu Says:

    I predict a good size win for Obama in NC (+6 to +9 % pts)
    narrow loss to Clinton in Indiana (+2 to +5% for Clinton)
    the slugfest continues

    unless the supers stampede over to the Obama camp (that has been slowly happening, tho stampede wouldn’t be accurate, more like whittling away at the Clinton ‘inevitability’)

    The numbers don’t look good for HRC unless she can ramrod thru the Michigan vote (Obama wasn’t even on the ballot!) and the FL vote (hey, you wanted an early primary that wouldn’t count? well you got one that wouldn’t count, now sd&stfu). I predict the Clintons insist upon ‘going nuclear’ which is going to burn millions of voters and hand the election to McSame. Brilliant move fucktards (please excuse my language, just quoting the queen of civility)

  3. enkidu Says:

    wow I was close in IN, but underestimated the Obama wave in NC

    IN +1.8% Clinton

    NC +14.7% Obama

    Delegates IN Clinton 37, Obama 33
    Delegates NC Obama 58, Clinton 42
    net gain of 12 more delegates for Obama

    The math for Clinton does not look good at all (unless she can break the rules and seat MI (where Obama wasn’t even on the *%&#^!% ballot!) and FL)

    Expect more supers to move to Obama.

    Either Dem will defeat McSame in Nov, but Obama will have giant coat tails helping to win many other Dem races. Rethugglicanism is dead, the rethugs killed conservatism with their greed, perversion, corruption, hubris and just plain stupidity. Good riddance @$$holes!

    Maybe the race in 2012 will be Dems vs Progressives?

  4. shcb Says:

    Don’t get too cocky, look at what happened in the elections in England, the Labor party lost big, these things are cyclical.

  5. enkidu Says:

    The cycle as you call it is still swinging hard to the left. Dem turnout is at record levels, dissatisfaction with the direction of the country is at an all time high, the economy is in tatters from mismanagment and corruption and your one big solution is to cut taxes? grow. the. fuck. up. will you? If this is the big civilizational war that you douchebags keep whinging about, then you 1%ers damn well better step up to the plate and accept whatever tax burden it takes to WIN the damn thing. I only mention the 1%ers because they are the ultra rich who actually set the course of the rotten ship Republicanism.

    shrubbie is the most unpopular president in modern history. The R brand is so bad that even conservatives are describing it as dog food (tainted dog food that would be taken off the shelves to be more precise – google it).

    rwnj – you should set your sights on the 2010 midterms and unseating President Obama in 2012. A good role for you wingnuts would be fiscal conservatives: restraining and focusing Fed spending so it isn’t as wasteful as it might be. The social stuff is laughably 18th century (eeek! a brown person!) so good luck with that in the globalized 21st century.

    Personally I worry that you rwnjs are going to JFK BHO. The secret service lapses in Dallas (of all places) makes this a very real possibility. Especially once the new administration starts digging up evidence of the real corruption volcano that is the neocon/shrubbco regime.

  6. NorthernLite Says:

    I think Hillary should finish out the rest of the primaries, and then gracefully step aside.

  7. shcb Says:

    Ok, so one of my bosses is a big Democrat, but a reasonable one. The scuttle butt he heard is that Hillary has worked out a deal with the Obama camp that will pay for the personal money she has put into the race if she will bow out in a few weeks. He said she dumped another 6 mil into the race just recently. Have you heard anything like that?

    I told him I wouldn’t trust Hillary with that deal for all the tea in China. I can just see her in a couple weeks with tears saying it was the hardest thing she has ever done to quit the race, then a few weeks before the convention, after she has cashed the check come back with an announcement that Michigan and Florida count and she’s back!

  8. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb has a trusted source for scuttle butt. You get your talking points from Senator Craig?

    shcb, I do not think your Hillary scenario is too plausible, see, there would have to be a number of people in on the plot and all would have to keep quiet for quite a long time, and Obamaa is much smarter than that. However, it is much better than some of your other wild conspiracy theories.

  9. shcb Says:

    But Knarly a conspiracy is usually an illegal act when it is discussed in a forum like this. A conspiracy theory is derogatory term for a goofy, far fetched conspiracy that only has a snowball’s chance in hell of being true. I don’t think there is anything illegal in the Democrats paying off Hillary’s campaign debts, even if they were to herself. It would probably be a fiscally wise move. Ten or twelve million to get her to go away would probably be cheaper than fighting her. And that doesn’t count the time Obama is wasting on Hillary that could be better used on McCain. From what I read today that seems to be what the Obama camp is doing, they are gearing up for the general election. But she is shrewd, I wouldn’t count her out yet.

  10. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb, why the quibble? I was complimenting your improved ability to construct scenarios. There is no need for such a lame quibble as that you had presented a conspiracy to deceive theory rather than a conspiracy to commit a crime theory.

    By either description, the conspiracy theory you have shown here is a great improvement from past attempt such as your conspiracy theory about 19 loser Arabs outwitting NORAD, the FBI, the CIA and others to completely destroy three skyscrapers in Manhattan, inflict massive damage to the Pentagon and crash flight 93 into a strip mine (yet send wreckage miles away) using nothing more than boxcutters and the magical ability to temporary suspend the laws of physics.

    However, your conspiracy to deceive theory about Hillary, while an improvement on your silly official 911 conspiracy theory, still does not have the ring of truth.

    Besides, if HRC is as shrewd as you say then she probably wouldn’t be losing in the first place.

    As for this new conspiray to deceive theory you [present here, do you think Obama or his supporters are stupid enough to hand over millions of dollars to a Clinton when the race is already all but won? Also, even if that was in America’s greater interest to “pay her off” do you really think they would be so naïve as to do so without an iron-clad arrangement that would ensure that the slimy Clinton would keep her word?

  11. shcb Says:

    There are no “iron clad” agreements with the Clintons. The agreement would probably be more with the DNC than Obama, but Obama would be involved in the negotiations because money is fungible and money that goes to her wouldn’t be going to Obama later on. I’m guessing she is using the 12 million from Simon and Schuster and by my calculations she only has about 3 mil left. I would think she will stay in until that is gone hoping for a scandal that would knock Obama out of the race, the Clinton camp is working around the clock trying to find or manufacture one. Then she will settle for 6 to 8 million for her next Senate run. I would think this is her only chance at the presidency so she may as well go for broke. She didn’t do much for the 12 million but S&S won’t make that same mistake twice so this is it.

  12. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb,
    Interesting theories. You obviously know more about this than I, so what would you say about my suspicion that Hillary has access to far greater $ resources than is publically known? That’s is just a wild speculation based on her connections.

    Off topic, but I wonder if you are giving PR support to McCain?

    His campaign office’s attack on Obama (because of Obama’s statement that McCain “is losing his bearings”) has all the characteristics of your usual comments. It is attacking a straw man argument, it is hypocritical by being a great example of exactly what it is condemning, it is relentlessly misleading).

    Perhaps this is just all that Republicans still know how to do, or that all Republicans fight in this same dirty way? http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/05/mccain-advisor.html

  13. knarlyknight Says:

    BTW, The Republican attack was easily repuilsed: “Clearly losing one’s bearings has no relation to age,” Burton said in an e-mailed statement.

  14. knarlyknight Says:

    repulsed – thwarted

  15. shcb Says:

    I really don’t listen to much of the back and forth bickering in these elections, unless there is some substance to it. McCain is old and Obama is a Democrat, Democrats are perceived as being softer on defense than Republicans so our enemies would like that. Other than both statements being stereotypes what substance is there. Many Democrats have been strong on defense and many good leaders have been old in the case of FDR, both at the same time. An election is kind of like a sword fight, statements like these are like all the flailing around between lunges. They’re meant to test the opponent, see where his weaknesses are, what gets under his skin. It also tests what tweaks the voters, in either direction. The trick is to send out these test balloons without alienating voters that may vote for you. Like in the sword fight, you want to test your opponent without opening yourself up to a lunge.

    To your question, yes she has money coming in from other places, but I think that 12 mil is all she has of her own money that she is willing to spend.

    As to my predictions above about Hillary staying in to the bitter end, I don’t have a very good track record when it comes to predicting these things. The smart money says she is all but done, so if you have a trip to Vegas planned, take what I say and bet the opposite. It’s just too much fun to play the what if game, and I have nothing to lose by being wrong.

  16. leftbehind Says:

    shcb – you should know better than try to waste Knarly’s time with conspiracy theories. He doesn’t have time for that crap! :-)

  17. shcb Says:

    At least this one is plausible, and probably not even illegal.

  18. knarlyknight Says:

    That’s right Lefty, my times bin a’wastin sorting through so many of your administration’s stupid conspiracy theories, like all them Iranian explosives & other weapons flooding into Iraq:

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2008/05/iraq-the-elusiv.html

    No-one has any time left for all that Repugnant bushlit anymore. The clock is ticking, you rwnj’s better pull another 911 or you’ll never win the election this fall.

  19. shcb Says:

    we aren’t going to win this year, unless the D’s give it to us, it’s cyclical. we’ll be back, we will win one of the houses in two years and an R will be president in 8. It’s cyclical.

  20. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb,
    Looks like you got a keen sense of predicting past trends. I’m a sucker for forecasting more of the same (cycles) too.

    Actually, I’ll give you more credit than that. I recall you have some theory about balance or a pendulum and the swing vote being those who eventually become disenchanted with the incumbants or something. Alex Jones or someone like that I think has a similar theory, except it is more like the people are being played back and forth with the press alternately demonizing the D’s or the R’s so that the sheeple think that they are voting for real changes.

    An R will be POTUS in 8 only if the D’s can fix the current mess in that time. Things could be truly ugly what with the dollar dropping, little room to lower interest rates, oil at levels that no one believed would be reached (except for Michael Rupert who was forecasting these current oil and food price / problems back in 2002 or 2003, wish I’d paid more attention!), record deficits, etc. Expect some truly remarkable bad news about the economy once the D’s get a look at the books (any idea what’s being done with the M1 money supply, or is that still a secret since the R’s decided last year (or the year before?) that it was best not to let people know what they were doing to the economy? Anyway, what I’m trying to get to – and not being very convincing about it – is that there could be some real bad times blamed on the Bush legacy and if, a huge enormous if, Obama is the kind of uniter everyone hopes that he is (people are dreaming, it’s like LSD and 1968 all over again) if he is such a uniter then maybe there will be real reforms so that after 8 years the choice ahead will be clear. If Hillary is his VP I’d expect disaster.

    Did any of that make sense?

  21. shcb Says:

    It didn’t make a lot of sense, but I know what you are saying. Obama isn’t going be a uniter, Bush wanted to be a uniter and he found out the people he wanted to unite didn’t want to. The old lead a horse to water can’t make him drink thing. Even if he could unite everyone the problems would be the same. We would all be looking at the problems in the same way, but that way may be wrong.

    It also looks like the dollar is starting to show some improvement, the economy had a very small amount of growth last quarter, not even a full percent but it was a sign the economy might have bottomed out. Historically Democrat policies hurt an economy because among other things they raise taxes, Enky is going to send a bunch of stuff on the economies during Democratic administrations, which is why I was so careful to say policies, not administrations. Obama has already said he wants to raise the top marginal rate from 34% to 39%, and the D’s can’t wait to get rid of the Bush tax cuts including restoring the estate tax to its full glory, these changes will slow the economy just as it was making it’s turn. But McCain is a soft Republican without much knowledge of economics, so unless he hires Jack Kemp and listens to him, the result will probably be the same.

    The solution to oil prices is fairly simple, drill some holes and build some refineries. But again Democrats are a poor choice if want results in this area. They are too tied to the environmentalists. R’s haven’t been much better because they are afraid they will lose elections if they drill holes, they lost anyway. So the economy will continue to founder and it will be blamed on Bush for a year or two , then the R’s will be in a position to promise more than they can deliver, people will be ready for “change”, they will believe the R’s, vote them back into power and the process will continue. It has nothing to do with the Mystical powers of press, just human nature.

  22. enkidu Says:

    As a life-long progressive and Independent voter, I find your “us vs them”ism slightly tired (and indeed quite ridiculous). When Rs actually work at the problems facing our nation rather than pandering to the 3Gs (gunz, gawdz n gayz!) we might think about electing more of them. Giant giveaways to the very richest Americans hasn’t exactly been a huge success story (unless you are ultra rich, then you are probably thrilled to return a small % of those gains as campaign contributions)

    Sadly, there are something like 25% of Americans who are just intractable idiots. These are the folks who think the sun goes around the earth. The morans who still support the Worst president of our lifetimes (you make Nixon look good).

    To mis-quote the bard “we come to bury you, not to praise you” (if you know much about WS then you might spot the multiple ironies)

    I want us to look back on the Republicans of the late 20th century (newt! raygun! nixon! dumbya!) as the overwhelming failures that they really were. The trend is towards liberal democracies. Not towards ‘unity executives’ dictators and GOOPrz.

    Me, I want even more progressive, more liberal leaders, not red dog Dems who won’t vote for Jim Webb’s new GI Bill (McInsane won’t btw – moran). I get the distinct feeling that whoever Obama picks for VP better be ready to go from day 1, as the rwnjs are all too likely to JFK BHO (see Dallas, secret service ‘lapses’). Whut th hell do you think they wants all them boomsticks fer?

    Oh and economics? WJ Clinton lead our nation during the longest strongest economic expansion in modern history. Heck if they could guarantee another Clinton Boom, then I’d be happy to vote for Hillary! (twice even! ;-)

  23. shcb Says:

    So to gain credibility all I have to do is give up all my core beliefs? Why don’t you give up your beliefs, then it won’t us against them, D’s against R’s we’ll all be one happy Republican family.

  24. enkidu Says:

    really? You admit R core beliefs are gunz, gawdz n gayz, tax giveaways to the richest, and the Sun goes around the Earth?

    A refreshing burst of honesty shcb! There may be hope for you yet!

  25. shcb Says:

    Enky, yes those are a part of my core values, you have exaggerated them in a pejorative way for effect of course. Guns and God, traditional values, self reliance and a belief in the rights the constitution gives us, those are my core values. Gays, all men are created equal, but not more equal, marriage is between a man and a woman, again traditional values. The tax cuts for the rich is just a platitude unless you can give me an example, a house bill number would be helpful. I’m not sure what the flat earth stuff is all about, I guess it has to do with us R’s being stupid, If you wish to underestimate your foes that way I’m certainly not going to stand in your way. We’re just a bunch a hayseed plowboys out here in flyover country, dumber ‘n a box a rocks, not nearly as perty. Probly all that cross breedn’. (that was Knarly’s assertion).

  26. knarlyknight Says:

    Sorry about that shcb, if I could take it back I would.

    In my defence I learned most everything about Americans from Gilligan’s Island, Mayberry and the Beverly Hillbillies.

  27. enkidu Says:

    wow, my posts were filled with typos! my apologies
    the word “unity” in paragraph 4 from May 12 should read “unitary”

    “gunz” should read “guns”
    “gawdz” should read “gods”
    “gayz” should read “gays”

    other than typos, there isn’t anything pejorative about my 5/12 2:43 summation of your ‘traditional values’. You added a bunch of stuff (it is the Constitution – I assume you are referring to the sacred document rather than your health, the same US Constitution dumbya referred to as ‘jes a gawdam piece a paper!”)

    dumbya’s tax cuts have benefited the rich more than the rest of us
    youtube.com/watch?v=SA1f2MefsMM
    view it thru about 6 to 7 minutes, but the whole thing is excellent!
    I favor upping taxes on the richest 5% and when I get back to that level, I’ll thank President Obama for the extra taxes I’ll have to pay (which I certainly won’t mind, as I’ll be making much more than that in income – duh!)

    I aint misunderestimatin hayseeds n zealots, racists, wackjobs, angry rwnjs and good ol Duhmurkkkin stupidity. Hence my reference to you 25%ers and your comical belief the sun goes around the earth – bible tells us so! – and that dumbya has been anything other than an unqualified disaster.

    btw
    Cross breeding increases genetic diversity – inbreeding (which you must be intimately familiar with judging from your posts) is a decrease in genetic diversity, health and fitness. You rwnjs really don’t understand genetics do you? Check the calendar: it is the 21st century. Get with the program.

  28. shcb Says:

    No problem Knarly, we all have our stereotypes and the reason they are stereotypical is, well, they are right. We went back to Kansas over Easter, we stopped in Tribune (pop 1100 or so). A customer walked in and said to another “well hey LeRoy, how’s it shake’n” in an accent that was right out of all those shows. I looked at my wife and said “so this is where rednecks come from” (a line from a country western song). But I still love those folks to death. You guys have made disparaging remarks about Canadians, ‘cause, well you is one. No harm no foul. Enky gets under my skin because there seems to be a raging hatred in his tone. If we were talking face to face maybe it would be different… don’t worry about taking it back, I couldn’t use it against you over and over again if you did:-)

    Say a prayer for the folks in China, sounds pretty bad.

  29. enkidu Says:

    hatred?
    I am jes havin me a good ol time!
    a lil levity (with some real world facts n figures on occasion)
    You are just used to arguing with folks who insist on using sporks in a knife fight. Too many strawmen. The next 8 years should be quite an eye-opener, but I doubt it, too fixed in yer ‘ways’

    I bet anything dear ol rwnj did not watch that video on dumbya’s tax cuts for the richest Americans. No need to take in information that doesn’t agree with your ‘values’. What is McSame’s slogan this year? More wars, fewer jobs, McSame! That’ll be a winner, fer sure.

    The people in China need relief, not prayers. They need bulldozers and cranes and medical supplies. Open your hearts AND your wallets. Oh wait… ooops… the US is the stingiest country in the world based on per capita contribution to aid/dev funds (true we are nearly twice the total dollars of the second largest contributing country – but our economy is many times the size of Germany’s or France’s economy to be sure, tho with the incredible shrinking dollar… hey knarls, what is the CND$ up to now?)

    globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

  30. enkidu Says:

    that should be “one of the stingiest countries”

  31. knarlyknight Says:

    enk – Cdn $ is at par with US $ now.

    Interest rates have not been dropping as fast as in the USA, that’s a big change we used to track your fed rate changes closely.

    Fruits, veggies and other foods imported from the states have stayed about the same price even though the US $ has dropped 20 or 25% or so. Gas is $ 1.30 a litre which works out to about $4.30 a US Gallon.

    If, as you say, the USA is being stingy, it’s only because the statistics do not include all efforts and money being spent to help free the Iraqi’s from oppression.

  32. shcb Says:

    I think I have heard those numbers before, the money Enky is talking about is government $, most relief money in the US is given in private contributions to the Red Cross etc. in European countries those contributions are made by the governments. Correct me if I’m wrong.

    There was a great article written by a Canadian in the 70’s talking about all the good America has done, chastising Canadians for criticizing the Americans, I’ll see if I can find it.

  33. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb,

    I recall you’ve posted those before. I know how that works. Little Johnny gives away 50% of his $5 allowance for Myanmar, all the schools, orphanages and parishes around the country save a big portion of their measly funds for charity, while the guys working at (the former) Enron spend their paycheques on champagne and trips to Vegaas. Not a very enlightened approach to contributing to world crises.

    The Canadian government has a tradition of making a certain level of donation for a crises and also matching private contributions dollar for dollar. So if the government initially underestimates the will of Canadians to contribute to a cause that gets taken care of when they match the private contributions. I’m not saying that’s good, that’s just what our gov. does. .

  34. shcb Says:

    And I guess in the end as long as those in need get what they need that is all that matters. I prefer to know how much of my money is going where. If I want to sent $ to help the Chinese I can. I have something of a vested interest in the country now and have friends there so I will probably give a hundred or two to a charity sending relief to the area. If the same thing happens in Italy I probably won’t, but someone else will. I’m not totally against the government helping though, especially with things like airlifting those supplies our donations are buying. It’s another of those personal liberties things. How does a government know how much it’s going to need? How does it know what natural disasters are going to occur? If the disasters don’t happen do they give you the money back? Including interest? I would prefer to keep my money and then dole it out as I see fit, when the bad things happen.

    Enky I watched some of the slide show, there is too much to explain, and you wouldn’t accept it anyway. The reason the population has expanded is primarily emigration, we have been at an almost 0 natural population growth for decades, the people that are emigrating are low income, but much higher income than where they came from. The middle class has gotten more affluent, I think that is a good thing.

    You have to understand the “poverty level” in these examples is usually based on a percentage not abject poverty so by definition it never changes unless you move the bar. The mid/low income includes people just starting up the economic ladder, kids just out of school, that type of thing, or old people at the end of their careers, and with the baby boomers retiring, that number is increasing. That doesn’t mean these people are poor, they just have low incomes. The house is paid for, the car, all the toys, they have savings and portfolios that aren’t shown in these numbers, you get the picture. And in the end it simply is what it is, those that have, have worked for it.

    It isn’t government’s place to take it from them just because someone else doesn’t have it. Unless you believe in socialism. Or in your case you just covet the stuff of anyone that has more than you, jealousy.

    It simply isn’t worth the effort to explain it to you just to have you spit back a bunch of misspelled bile.

  35. enkidu Says:

    “It simply isn’t worth the effort to explain it to you just to have you spit back a bunch of misspelled bile.”

    like you just did o bilious one?

    You’re ‘explanation’ for the increasing poverty in America is all them illegal immigrants eh? You really need to get away from hate radio my friend, it is poisoning your soul. You see what you want to see and nothing else. But just keep smacking down those strawmen and convincing yourself it is always The Other.

    But why use my words? How about the words of the US gov census folks?
    “Almost one-third of the current population growth is caused by net immigration.”
    census.gov/population/www/pop-profile/natproj.html

    So less than a third of our population growth is due to immigration (legal and illegal one would assume). Let’s use the nice round numbers of 30% immigration and 70% birth rate. That doesn’t jibe well with your obsessions (I forgot immiGrants in my Guns, Gods n Gays description of your hot button issues).

    Your analysis of people with low incomes is also fatally flawed (since you refuse to see anything that doesn’t support your strawmen). For example my parents are retired, and their income is very low (and taxed at low rates), but their assets are huge. They aren’t counted in the rising tide of the dumbya era poverty stricken. The middle class is shrinking, squeezed by rising prices and lower wages, the incredible shrinking dollar and mismanagement of our government and economy.

    But just keep making stuff up
    (I’m jealous of the richest 1%? If you say so pal! ;-)
    and providing us with your usual schtick of rwnj hate radio talking points.

    (ps – dumbya isn’t misspelled btw – and I can’t see any typos – who knows what you’ll complain about next!)

  36. leftbehind Says:

    Heady stuff to be sure, but I’m more interested in your earlier paranoi… I mean reasonably cautious statement regarding a possible JFK scenario involving Barrack Obama. You don’t think they’ll try to run him over with a tank, do you?

  37. leftbehind Says:

    …and SHCB, you really need to leave Inky’s spelling alone. He’s really touchy about that…

  38. enkidu Says:

    star-telegram.com/667/story/486413.html

    upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2008/02/21/report_security_relaxed_at_obama_speech/8649/

    Of course the Secret Service denied this the next day (despite multiple Dallas police officers denying the denial). But lets stop to take a look at this for a second: 1) it is in the south (dumbyaland) 2) it is Dallas where JFK was assassinated by a rwnj 3) JFK was another inspirational figure, delivering change, making rwnjs look like the incompetent fools they really are 4) rwnjs love them some boomsticks…

    Nothing to see here (of course).

    Hey did you catch the news article about the goopr in GA selling Curious George t-shirts that say Obama ’08? Nope, no racism here! At least you made the news lefty!

  39. shcb Says:

    LB, Enky evidently wasn’t schooled by nuns.

    By today’s standards JFK was almost a conservative. I think he did a better job making Liberals look like fools.

  40. shcb Says:

    Wasn’t Oswald a communist?

  41. leftbehind Says:

    Yes he was, for the record.

    Inky – Since Obama’s in such danger, and the Secret Service isn’t doing their job (or is it…a conspiracy!) don’t you think you should step up to the plate and give the man a fighter escort?

    …and yeah, I saw the shirt you’re referring to. I thought the monkey was you, until I realized that the object in his hand was a banana.

  42. knarlyknight Says:

    …a banana …rather than a sword or the mighty pen?

    So what’s your point Lefty? It seems you have resurfaced here to destroy the discussions with irrelevant and juvenile posts. If so, this thread is dead. Congratulations loser.

  43. enkidu Says:

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald

    70% of Americans believe that JFK was assassinated as the result of a plot

    didn’t you lose our wager lefty?
    shouldn’t you be lurking in a men’s room someplace?

  44. leftbehind Says:

    Pork sword?

    This thread was already irrelevant and juvenile before I happened along. If you guys haven’t killed it by now, I doubt I’ll have that chilling an effect.

    Here’s an interesting question that should keep the hilarity ensuing at a feverish pitch – since we’ve established that Oswald was a left wing communist, rather than the right winger Chuckles the Factless tried to pawn him off as, the question arises: just how many right-wing nuts have tried to kill either the President or a presidential candidate in recent times? Since I’ve been around, the highest profile, would-be assassins have either been apolitical nuts or delusional left wingers. In fact, most of the assassination attempts I can think of have either been against Republicans (Reagan, Ford) or right-wing Democrats (George Wallace was crippled by an assassin.) Maybe it’s not the right wing nuts Inky needs to be so paranoid about.

  45. leftbehind Says:

    Inky – I don’t know why you go on and on about this but I’ve told you, time and time again for months now that, even if I did lose some sort of wager with you or Knarly, I don’t want to go to the men’s room with you guys. Get over it. The closest public restroom to my house is fifty feet from a school, so you wouldn’t be able to go in there, anyway.

    I know, I know, you keep telling me that your…ahem…work…ahem…for the airlines has won you the the…ahem…friendship…ahem…of some important people in Congress, but I don’t think “Pooky” can pull the strings you think he can when it comes to registries and child welfare and stuff like that. I’m sorry to break it to you, but the only string that guy’s pulling for you is your’s…or is that the other way around? Maybe that wasn’t a banana in the monkey’s hand after all…

  46. enkidu Says:

    makes about as much sense as your “jimberjawedflopperrejuicenik”
    (or whatever that babble was)

    I had no idea that your men’s room had wifi lefty
    now flush and slink back home to your cellar

  47. enkidu Says:

    meanwhile, back in reality

    The Iraq War is expected to cost over $45,000 for every man woman and child in America. That number stuck with me and cropped up again when I read this article about solar power.

    “Five years ago, I spent about $45,000 and got a brand new car (the RAv4EV) and the solar system,” he says. “We’re still driving the car every day, and the solar system will continue to make fuel for whatever EV we drive in the future. For $45,000 we bought a new car and fuel for the rest or our lives.”

    Asked how long it will take for the PV system to pay for itself, Dickey replies: “If we think of everything in terms of what it costs us in the short-term, we’re screwed. It’s the same argument people use against the Prius: When will it pay back in gas savings? But that only accounts for the money paid at the pump. What of the billions of dollars that leave our economy for oil, or the billions of our tax dollars that go toward tax incentives for oil companies? What of the cost of the military and the lives lost to protect our oil?”

    $45,000 is no doubt a significant amount of money. But if we invest in this now — like we should have been for the past 20+ years — the price will naturally come down. We need to think of this modest investment in contrast to the billions of dollars that leave our treasury every year for oil.

    sierraclub.org/wecandoit/home/electric_cars.asp

    Who do you think is more likely to change our policies on energy?
    McBush? Hillary? Or curious george?

    The math doesn’t look good for Hillary (unless she can seat MI and FL as is).

  48. knarlyknight Says:

    Lefty probably thinks he’s smart, “hey guys let’s just figure out which political party the assassins belong to and then we’ll be able to tell who the bad guys are!” Another f*ckin brilliant idea from the 28 percentile fools, or has the percentile dropped to new record lows for any president, ever?

  49. shcb Says:

    One small problem Enky, the CBO estimate is $1,866.00 for 5 years. As we saw from previous discussions, that number is really close. So for six years it would be $2,240. What logical fallacy is it when you exaggerate by a factor of 20?

  50. enkidu Says:

    I can’t dig up where I read 45,000 for every citizen – I might have confused it with 45,000 for a family of 4. Note that this doesn’t change the math really in my example: a family of four spends $45,000 on new PV panel system and RAV4EV and tells greedy oil tycoons to go fuck themselves (both texan and saudi).

    ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=40043

    “The total economic cost of the war in Iraq to a family of four is 16,500 dollars from 2002 to 2008,” the report asserts in its main conclusions. “When the war in Afghanistan is included, the burden to the American family is 20,900 dollars.”

    “The potential future impact on the family of four skyrockets to 36,900 for Iraq and 46,400 dollars for Iraq and Afghanistan from 2002 to 2017,”

    or
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War

    “According to a Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report published in October 2007, the U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could cost taxpayers a total of $2.4 trillion dollars by 2017 when counting the huge interest costs because combat is being financed with borrowed money. The CBO estimated that of the $2.4 trillion long-term price tag for the war, about $1.9 trillion of that would be spent on Iraq.[5]

    Stiglitz, former chief economist of the World Bank and winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics, has stated the total costs of the Iraq War on the US economy will be three trillion dollars in a moderate scenario, and possibly more in the most recent published study, published in March 2008.[6] Stiglitz has stated: “The figure we arrive at is more than $3 trillion. Our calculations are based on conservative assumptions. They are conceptually simple, even if occasionally technically complicated. A $3 trillion figure for the total cost strikes us as judicious, and probably errs on the low side. Needless to say, this number represents the cost only to the United States. It does not reflect the enormous cost to the rest of the world, or to Iraq.”

    No word on the costs if McBush keeps us there for a hundred years. We are only talking the costs already incurred and the downstream costs of caring for 30,000 wounded US soldiers.

    3.5 trillion dollars
    heck of a job bushie!

  51. enkidu Says:

    your CBO numbers seem to be bunk – please cite a reference other than Macho Mike or Thrust Limp-baugh

    thx

  52. knarlyknight Says:

    Enk, I think he got the numbers from Lefty. Cheers, Knarl

  53. shcb Says:

    These are the prewar CBO numbers, there was a recent New York Times piece that was complaining about the high cost of the war, 300 million a day I believe, that coincided with the CBO predictions before the war. Unfortunately I didn’t keep that link. We were talking about it a couple months ago if you want to look through the archives.

    http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=3822&type=0

    The answer to the question of what is the payback: 28 years with financing and 20 years if he pays cash, which he almost did, they fail to mention he either put down $40,000 as a down payment, or he has a big balloon next year. Admitidly this does not take into consideration the savings of running his house totally on solar, I’m skeptical as to whether he really does. With the electricity savings the payback is 17 years (with financing).

  54. leftbehind Says:

    Knarly – I don’t see why it’s so absurd that I should try to label all the bad guys by party. JBC’s been doing the same thing for ten years, at least, and look at the rest of us swinging off his dick!

    Inky – of course you can get wifi in a men’s room! I thought you were all learned up on this technology stuff now that you’ve moved away from your “genocidal Republican” father’s top secret militia installation. No matter – even if you don’t ever catch on to all this new fangled computer technology, your 23 brothers and sisters will probably learn it fairly quickly, now that the feds have raided ol’ Dad’s “compound d’amour” down there in Texas.

    If it wasn’t for wifi, I’m not sure what I’d do while I was in the men’s room. I’m kind of a slower shitter, and I don’t have as much luck as you do meeting interesting friends in the john. That, and I think that I probably mean something a lot more innocent than you do when I say that I’m “fooling around with my laptop.”

    70% of Americans believe that Kennedy was assassinated due to a conspiracy, according to Wikipedia, huh? Well, the Sci Fi Channel says 72% of Americans believe in UFO’s. Maybe Sasquatch shot John Kennedy, and now he’s after Obama, too. You better round up the rest of the Blackhawks for an emergency sortie over Roswell. HAWKAAAAAAHHHHH!

  55. leftbehind Says:

    …and why is it you can spell “jimberjawedflopperrejuicenick” correctly but you can’t spell “moron?” Were you, in fact, taught by nuns? (I guess that might explain your apparent obsession with homo-sex in bathroom stalls, which are an awful lot like confessional booths, I would think, especially if you’re on the floor, looking up.)

  56. shcb Says:

    I’m not saying this solar car is bad idea here, I‘m just pointing out some of the things the Sierra Club glazed over or omitted. This is an advocacy piece not a technical analysis so they should be given some wiggle room. I think they took a little more than they should have but what the hey.

    A couple other things. He hasn’t had much in the way of maintenance, but at seven years he is coming up on the life of the batteries. Now if these batteries are anything like a forklift battery, he is looking at a substantial bill, probably 4 or 5 thousand dollars. I didn’t figure that into my numbers above since I don’t know what the number is. But it will obviously make the payback quite a bit longer. Also the batteries at his house. If he is charging the car off batteries at his house the bank to charge the car would have to be larger than that in the car, there would also have to be several times more capacity to operate the house, these would also be in need of replacement.

    A more likely scenario is he is putting power into the grid during the day spinning his meter in reverse all day while they are at work. Then he uses power from the grid like everyone else in the evening and to charge his car all night giving him a net zero bill. This is all fine as long as only a small number of people are doing it, when the amount of power being delivered this way gets out of the single digits the grid becomes unstable.

    At some point technology may change this dynamic, learning whatever we are learning from this experiment is a good thing, but it is not practical on a large scale at this point, the Sierra club should have mentioned that.

  57. enkidu Says:

    shcb – thx for taking the time to think about this without the partisan filter (if even for a moment)

    I am not saying this is the one true solution, and I don’t think the sierra club is either. The point is the price tag $ number just happened to be the same as the costs of our current foreign fubar (or close enough, I was under by $1400, but close enough right?) The point being we had choices to make in 2002 and 2003: Afghanistan was the correct choice, but Iraq was not. At a cost of $45,000 per family we could eliminate consumer consumption of oil/gasoline. Entirely. With 10 year old tech. Believe me that people have been working on better lithium ion batteries (no lefty, not the kind of lithium you take in such massive quantities) or ultracapacitors or fuel cells or… With 3.5 trillion in gunmint money being spent on your wars (note that I am not opposed to the Afghan war, so call it 3 trillion), that choice has costs associated with it other than the hurling of bullets, bombs and blood. There are synergistic costs associated with developing new tech solutions to real world problems: jobs, infrastructure, science output, lower pollution and so on.

    The grid becomes unstable? Solar works in the daytime, when folks are using electricity. We can start replacing coal fired plants (or at the worst, clean up the pollution from our current plants and not have to build as many new ones), if we have the national will to do so. Think of it like going to the moon.
    Yes.
    We.
    Can.

    And yes, we will.

    And as to your CBO numbers, it is quite laughable that you choose to only throw out numbers from before the war started (2002? talk about ridiculous). I’ll stick with 2008 numbers. Real world numbers. Next year it’ll be 2009 numbers etc.

  58. knarlyknight Says:

    Thanks for the last two posts Enk & shcb.

  59. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb,

    I thought you might get something out of this article. http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/20797485/chinas_allseeing_eye/1

    What is most disconcerting about China’s surveillance state is how familiar it all feels. When I check into the Sheraton in Shenzhen, for instance, it looks like any other high-end hotel chain — only the lobby is a little more modern and the cheerful clerk doesn’t just check my passport but takes a scan of it.

    “Are you making a copy?” I ask.

    “No, no,” he responds helpfully. “We’re just sending a copy to the police.”

    Up in my room, the Website that pops up on my laptop looks like every other Net portal at a hotel — only it won’t let me access human-rights and labor Websites that I know are working fine. The TV gets CNN International — only with strange edits and obviously censored blackouts. My cellphone picks up a strong signal for the China Mobile network. A few months earlier, in Davos, Switzerland, the CEO of China Mobile bragged to a crowd of communications executives that “we not only know who you are, we also know where you are.” Asked about customer privacy, he replied that his company only gives “this kind of data to government authorities” — pretty much the same answer I got from the clerk at the front desk.

    When I leave China, I feel a powerful relief: I have escaped. I am home safe. But the feeling starts to fade as soon as I get to the customs line at JFK, watching hundreds of visitors line up to have their pictures taken and fingers scanned. In the terminal, someone hands me a brochure for “Fly Clear.” All I need to do is have my fingerprints and irises scanned, and I can get a Clear card with a biometric chip that will let me sail through security. Later, I look it up: The company providing the technology is L-1.

  60. shcb Says:

    I don’t know if you remember me mentioning it, but I could not get Lies.com when I was in China, Hong Kong yes, China no. It was a strange dichotomy, driving across the countryside our host asked if we knew some name, when we said we didn’t he proudly said it was China’s first president, obviously proud they had something like democracy. At almost the same time we asked what RMB, their currency, stood for. Just as proudly he said “the peoples money”. On one hand they want to be exactly like us, on the other they don’t. They seem perfectly accepting of more government scrutiny than we would. Maybe that will change as they get more freedoms. I don’t know if this is related but everything over there is fake. In this same trip a song was playing on the radio, out host said “that is Carlos Santana!” Tim and I looked at each other and said with our eyes “no it’s not” it was close, but it weren’t Carlos. As we listened to the music closer none of the recordings were the original artists even though they were singing in English. Boy they were good imitations though. We were polite enough to not say anything and Raymond never said anything like “we don’t have the real artists’ songs in China” or anything like that, so I assumed he thinks he is listening to the real thing.

    One last thing, before you enter the country you have to sign a paper that says you will not say or write anything critical of the government, or anything that will reflect on China’s image negatively. The threat is real, what constitutes the infraction is vague.

  61. knarlyknight Says:

    Good observations.

    Your last line applies to what some credible people say about The Patriot Act; law enforcement think that run of the mill protest groups are prime picking for, at the very least, monitoring which includes infiltrating as if they were criminals or potential terrorists. There’s been a few good video’s on agent provocateurs lately, but the first I heard about that was in MM’s F911 where a San Fran pro-peace group found out later that one of their former members was an undercover FBI agent scoping them out (he was not suspected at the time even though he never once brought cookies to their meetings like everyone else did.)

    Please read the article if you haven’t, I think you could get a lot out of it. After reading your comments, one of the things I recalled from the article was this:

    I ask Zheng whether China’s surveillance boom has anything to do with the rise in strikes and demonstrations in recent years. Zheng’s deputy, a 23-year veteran of the Chinese military wearing a black Mao suit, responds as if I had launched a direct attack on the Communist Party itself. “If you walk out of this building, you will be under surveillance in five to six different ways,” he says, staring at me hard. He lets the implication of his words linger in the air like an unspoken threat. “If you are a law-abiding citizen, you shouldn’t be afraid,” he finally adds. “The criminals are the only ones who should be afraid.”

    Then it continues…

    One of the first people to sound the alarm on China’s upgraded police state was a British researcher named Greg Walton. In 2000, Walton was commissioned by the respected human-rights organization Rights & Democracy to investigate the ways in which Chinese security forces were harnessing the tools of the Information Age to curtail free speech and monitor political activists…

  62. NorthernLite Says:

    I’m already starting to see the Dems starting to strongly unify. John McCain is f*cked.

  63. shcb Says:

    Enky first.

    You aren’t a few hundred dollars off, the total cost of the war is under $2,000 per person not 45, or even 8. The GAO estimate has proven to be accurate. The NYT article was about the same amount, the change in GDP percentage for defense is in line with a half trillion not 3.5 or 12. think about it the total budget of the United States is around 3 trillion. In perspective the cost of the war is a little over what his wife would have spent on gasoline in her Rav4 in a year at $3.50 per gallon, or half the cost of the replacement battery, not the whole system. That is for the whole war. You are right about solar working when people need electricity, business people. But the car is at the office when he has power so he has to charge it from the grid when his wife gets home. His system can’t exist without the grid to support it. If everyone, or something over 10 percent of everyone were using power at night and pumping power into it in the day, the grid will become unstable. If you don’t understand why let me know and I will explain.

    Knarly,

    We should be vigilant of course but there is no comparison between the Patriot act and China. Our facility there is four or five buildings on maybe 80 to 100 acres, enough for probably 10 more buildings with a village in the middle of it. They had been in their offices less than a week when we were there in July last year. There were 40 people working there with plans for 300 by now. That sets the stage. I’m guessing there were 6 to 10 guards for the 40 people. Here we are used to seeing an old retired police officer behind the front desk. These guys were all young, they had impeccable uniforms and red berets. Two to four of them greeted our bus every morning. As you were walking between buildings if you encountered one of them and made eye contact, they went into a ritual, feet came together, pointed in the direction you were going to be, arms slowly went to the side, slightly bent, heels came together, the right arm was raised slowly until it was 6 inches from the cap and them snapped to the brim in a perfect salute. The salute was held until you broke eye contact. After a couple days we realized if you ignored them they would not salute. But they never ignored us. They were always around.

    We asked our hosts if they worked for the company, were they military, should we salute back, were they allowed to talk to us (they didn’t seem to, not even a smile). We never got an answer, nothing, our hosts who were so friendly and helpful in every way ignored our questions. Pretending to not hear or not understand. We knew going in we were in a place unlike any we had ever been, we never felt threatened, in fact I hope to go back later this year or early next. But you realize quickly you’re not in Kansas anymore.

  64. enkidu Says:

    no
    you simply aren’t using facts

    2003 – Director, OMB
    “The administration’s top budget official estimated today that the cost of a war with Iraq could be in the range of $50 billion to $60 billion, a figure that is well below earlier estimates from White House officials.

    In a telephone interview today, the official, Mitchell E. Daniels Jr., director of the Office of Management and Budget, also said there was likely to be a deficit in the fiscal 2004 budget, though he declined to specify how large it would be. The administration is scheduled to present its budget to Congress on Feb. 3.

    Mr. Daniels would not provide specific costs for either a long or a short military campaign against Saddam Hussein. But he said that the administration was budgeting for both, and that earlier estimates of $100 billion to $200 billion in Iraq war costs by Lawrence B. Lindsey, Mr. Bush’s former chief economic adviser, were too high.”

    I am sure someone with more time could find plenty of YouTube clips of dumbya admin toadies saying this in front of a camera.

    2008
    The war now costs $12 billion a month and rising. Those are just the moneys directly allocated for the Iraq War, it doesn’t include the cost of replacing the equipment, the stateside care of the 30,000 wounded, swollen DoD budget, and the interest on the national debt (since this war is financed with debt, not including this cost is simply not correct on a accounting basis).

    Let’s take grandpa McBush at his word and say we are out of there or in a reduced presence by 2013. At an average of $12 billion a month, $144 billion a year and then another five years, we are talking something like $1.5 trillion just in direct war supplemental funding requests. Since we are half way through I might expect the $12 Billion/mo. cost to be about the median for the entire conflict.

    The damage dumbya has done to America, is even more staggering. From our relationships with allies (other than good ol Israel!), to our inciting and inflaming islamic extremist nut jobs (ienjs, the counterpart to good ol rwnjs), to our occupation of a country that didn’t attack us, didn’t have the means to do so and didn’t have them scary WMDs that rwnjs are now so strangely silent about (other than to say “it was the global intel consensus!” to which anyone who bothered to check the facts in 02 and 03 would politely reply “bullsh*t”).

    And dumbya’s damage to America as a nation? Nearly beyond price: our Constitution in tatters (or as dumbya proclaims “jes a gawdam piecea paper!”), our debt soaring, prices of basic commodities rising sharply, stagnant wages, below inflation stock markets and rising inequality.

    Really, heck of a job bushie! But just keep calling anyone who disagrees with y’all a “nazi appeaser”. It worked back in ’02, right?

  65. NorthernLite Says:

    Obama just verbally bitch-slapped Bush and Grandpa McCain for that.

    It was sweet.

  66. shcb Says:

    Your early quotes don’t specify how long those making the estimate thought the war would last. The CBO is very careful to say the costs are per month, and make no prediction as to the length of the war.

    So let’s recap, the war is costing us 13.5 trillion ($45k per person times 300 million persons). Then it is costing us 3.5 trillion (13.5 divided by 4 people per family) now it is costing 1.5 trillion. We evidentially are getting more efficient. That 1.5 tril is for the war and the aftermath. Now if we use the CBO numbers which have proven to be pretty accurate, the cost so far is 560 billion, if we occupy anther 5 years, assuming the Iraqi’s can handle the bulk of the fighting, which they seem to be doing, the total cost will be 800 billion (that is the high estimate it could be as low as 620 billion) that is $266 per person per year. Not a small amount of money but not three quarters of all the money spent by the government either. Total expenditures of the government 2002-2006 inclusive were 19 trillion adjusted to 2007 dollars.

    Deficit spending is certainly too high, but it is in line with the first few years of the Clinton Administration, those golden years.

    I read the statement Bush made in Israel, sounded reasonable to me.

  67. enkidu Says:

    no one would ever think of making a joke about assassinating a leading democratic candidate… nope…

    politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/16/huckabee-jokes-about-obama-ducking-a-gunman/

    Mike Huckabee — who has endorsed presumptive GOP nominee John McCain — joked that an unexpected offstage noise was Democrat Barack Obama looking to avoid a gunman.

    “That was Barack Obama, he just tripped off a chair, he’s getting ready to speak,” said the former Arkansas governor, to audience laughter. “Somebody aimed a gun at him and he dove for the floor.”

    har har har!

    quite the rwnj kneeslapper

  68. enkidu Says:

    wrong again rwnj

    $1.5 trillion in direct war funding (thru 2013 or if we get the hell out now, $1.5 trillion in money already spent and ‘incidentals’ as listed above, not that adequate medical care and anew GI Bill are incidental, they are required if you really support our troops)

    $46,400 for a family of four (same family of four who said goodbye to oil for $45,000)
    Other costs that rwnjs don’t put into their ‘numbers’ could be as much as another $1.5 trillion to $2 trillion

    war supplementals are as follows (not counting all black box stuff, off the record graft, DoD bloat or interest, all real world costs that shrubco doesn’t include):

    via wikipedia

    FY2003 Supplemental: Operation Iraqi Freedom: Passed April 2003; Total $78.5 billion, $54.4 billion Iraq War

    FY2004 Supplemental: Iraq and Afghanistan Ongoing
    Operations/Reconstruction: Passed November 2003; Total $87.5 billion, $70.6 billion Iraq War

    FY2004 DoD Budget Amendment: $25 Emergency Reserve Fund (Iraq Freedom Fund): Passed July 2004, Total $25 billion, $21.5 billion (estimated) Iraq War

    FY2005 Emergency Supplemental: Operations in the War on Terror; Activities in Afghanistan; Tsunami Relief: Passed April 2005, Total $82 billion, $58 billion (estimated) Iraq War

    FY2006 Department of Defense appropriations: Total $50 billion, $40 billion (estimated) Iraq War

    FY2006 Emergency Supplemental: Operations Global War on Terror; Activities in Iraq & Afghanistan: Passed February 2006, Total $72.4 billion, $60 billion (estimated) Iraq War

    FY2007 Department of Defense appropriations: $70 billion(estimated) for Iraq War-related costs[10][11]

    FY2007 Emergency Supplemental (proposed) $100 billion

    FY2008 Bush administration has proposed around $190 billion for the Iraq War and Afghanistan

    $666 billion in direct appropriations just for Iraq (there are many other costs that would have to be added to just the raw costs to keep our men and women fed clothed, housed, and armed/armored adequately). I could have included the Afghanistan costs in all of those numbers, but I used the split out numbers for Iraq where available, one might argue we would have a lower cost in Afghanistan if we had stayed on target – plus Osama would be dead (but you rwnjs need your bogeymen)

    So approx $750 billion dollars in 5 years and another 5 years to go for McBush’s grand vision of whatever, to the tune of another $750 billion add all the ‘incidental’ costs I meantioned above (the ones with dollar signs, like the new GI Bill the Rs are opposing, or decent medical care etc etc etc) and we are easily at or above the estimates I outlined.

    But just stick with your 2003 numbers and ignore reality.

  69. NorthernLite Says:

    shcb, of course what Bush said sounds reasonable to you and the other 24% like you. That’s not the point.

    But Obama sure put those two old-timers in their place.

    Seriously, Obama is going to destroy McCain in debates.

  70. NorthernLite Says:

    666 billion seems like an appropriate number for this endevour.

  71. shcb Says:

    Well Enky I come up with 474 billion for Iraq, not counting 2008, we were talking 5 years, so we add another 100 which is more than the previous years, and we are at 574, about the amount I have been citing. Since we are winning now and the Iraqi’s are taking a much bigger role one would think the costs will start to go down. (that is what the CBO said)

    NL, in the Washington Post article I read they said Obama has repeatedly said he will not negotiate with terrorists, but he has said he wants to open a “dialogue” with Iran, what are they going to do exchange meatloaf recipes? If America wants to go soft on terrorism, and vote in someone like Obama that’s ok, we may or may not pay for it later. Bush and McCain are telling it like they see it, and citing historical references that are similar to today’s situation. Obama can rebuff them if he wants, but he may be wrong too. Let the voters decide.

  72. shcb Says:

    Enky,

    $46,400 for a family of four (same family of four who said goodbye to oil for $45,000)
    Other costs that rwnjs don’t put into their ‘numbers’ could be as much as another $1.5 trillion to $2 trillion

    what “other” costs are going to treble or quadruple the direct costs?

  73. knarlyknight Says:

    NL,
    McCain will suddenly develop a coherent, logical speaking pattern for the debates, just as Bush did at times when his suit “buckled” into the shape of box on his back. i.e. McCain will have high tech help. So, it is not that Obama will destroy McCain, it is that Obama will destroy McCain and all his backstage handlers too

    Is it true that McCain supports all the propoganda about Iran too? Paul Roberts tells it like it is: http://www.rense.com/general82/lies.htm

  74. NorthernLite Says:

    Oh, the voters will decide.

    Because they know that closing your eyes and ears and pretending something isn’t there isn’t effective foreign policy.

    And they have the last 8 years of evidence to prove it.

  75. NorthernLite Says:

    I know that trying to develop effective diplomacy between cultures may sound a bit out there, but diplomacy has to be more effective than using the Quran for target practice.

    h t t p ://w w w . c n n . c o m /2008/WORLD/meast/05/17/iraq.quran/index.html

  76. shcb Says:

    You mean like the threat Islamofascism poses?

  77. NorthernLite Says:

    huh?

  78. shcb Says:

    NL,
    I’m referring to:

    Because they know that closing your eyes and ears and pretending something isn’t there isn’t effective foreign policy.

    It seems to me the left are the people that are closing their eyes and ears. Effective foreign policy isn’t the absence of war either. Effective foreign policy is a bit of both depending on the situation. Libya for instance was open to negotiation, we negotiated. We have been in negotiations with Iran since well before 911. Our first and nonnegotiable item is the Iran and the other Islamic states must acknowledge the right of Israel’s existence. They don’t have to be buddies with the Jews, but their stated mission in life can’t be the destruction of the Jewish state either. Iran has refused this reasonable condition to further dialogue. If Obama wants to drop that condition, I’m sure Ocy-Jahd would love to sit down give his other conditions for our surrender. Obama could then return to the United Stated with an envelope raised high over his head proclaiming he has a deal that will prevent further war.
    http://www.zionministry.com/PlanofGod/Chapt10/Image232.jpg
    That is what Bush was referring to. I’ve seen people post comments here that say maybe we should let the Jews fend for themselves, on this thread in fact Enky says

    The damage dumbya has done to America, is even more staggering. From our relationships with allies (other than good ol Israel!)

    It seems some don’t care if history repeats itself.
    http://www.beth-elsa.org/be_s1112.htm

    Only this time the Arabs may finish the job Hitler started.

  79. knarlyknight Says:

    What the hell you talking about shcb? Condensed version please, and leave out the wiping Israel off the map, NO-one here believes that is a good thing; and Ahmidijaan (sorrry PM Iran) was talking about wiping Zionism off the political map (not Israel) like we now see neo-cons wiped off map (well PNAC is Kaput, but that’s just becaaaause they achieved all their objectives including wealth unimaginable from war profits and high oil prices)

    Some day Barrack and Ahmidijan and a new ISraeli Pm might be signing a new 1000 year peace plan from the Mount in Jerulalem.

    Sorry for all the spellign, beer got to my fingers…. shcb, please explain in brief what the heck you wuz talking about then I’ll go back and read your links in more detail… for example, what was the picture of?? ?

  80. shcb Says:

    It’s Neville Chamberlain as he’s getting off the plane on his return to England. The treaty in his hand is one he and Hitler signed, the Munich Agreement.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement

    Of course history now tells us that Hitler had no intention to abide by that silly piece of paper, or any other (Treaty of Versailles) he just needed time to mobilize his forces. He invaded Poland 11 months later and 50 million people died. Of course you don’t want Israel wiped off the map, the Arabs do, they have said so repeatedly, appeasing these people will make wiping Jews off the map that much closer to a reality, it was in the original mission statement of Hamas or Hezbollah, forget which. There have been comments here on Lies.com that Israel may not be worth the effort to defend, just like no one wanted the St Louis, the Jews weren’t worth it, and we all know what happened to those Jews. If we don’t stand by them they will meet the fate of Czechoslovakia in 1938. The Arabs don’t want to wipe Zionism off the political map, whatever that means, they want the Jews dead, and they have said so.

    I’ve read quite a bit lately on the mind set of this enemy. In one book the author said they only see honor in winning, there is no honor in abiding by an agreement with your enemy. Agreements with the enemy are only used as a tool to gain an advantage by lulling you adversary into a false sense of security. If Obama seriously thinks he can get the Arabs to stop killing us and the Jews with a piece of paper (like Chamberlain) then he is dangerously naïve, but he is electable. I think he is smarter than that. I agree with the Rev Wright, Obama is just another politician that will tell you whatever you want to hear to get your vote.

  81. knarlyknight Says:

    Thanks shcb.

    So, who is your enemy? Shiites, Sunni, other Muslims? Iranians? Some Arabs, all Arabs?

    Hamas?

    Who exacly are you fighting? (Other than the people whose land you are occupying now.)

    Are you afraid they want to convert you to Islam or kill you? How do you know this is what they want (whoever “they” might be.)

  82. shcb Says:

    That’s the problem who are we fighting? And how do we know if we have won? Hamas and Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, those are pretty obvious. But who are even those groups? Members come and go they switch sides. This is the hard part of fighting a bottom up movement. Our system, the worldwide system, UN and such is set up with imaginary lines of countries they, ignore these boundaries, they ignore any kind of international treaties or laws, national or international. Now the thing that makes a bottom up movement so dangerous also limits its ability to pull off a major attack like 911. On a scale we are all interested in all we can do is limit the help these small cells get from countries, because those countries have the ability to produce arms, ammunition and such. The battle against the cells is fought on a much smaller scale, that is where the war is won, and in the hearts of the locals. While terrorists aren’t guerillas they use guerilla tactics and depend on the local population for some support, willing or unwilling.

    I’m not afraid they will convert me or kill me. They kill and maim every day because that is what they want to do however. They disrupt the fabric of society for this silly notion that everyone should think like they do, they won’t succeed, but they will leave a bloody trail trying.

    Here is the worst case, they get a nuke and decide if they level a big part of a major city we will all convert. They kill a hundred thousand or so, we don’t convert, we retaliate, we kill 10 million, they finally give up. And for what, so we replace dusty Bibles in our homes with dusty Qurans? On a conventional military scale all we can do is keep countries from giving the big guns to the radicals, and the small guns as well. The reason this war is going to take so long is to win we have to change attitudes, and that takes generations. In the meantime all we can do is play defense, but sometimes the best defense is an offense.

  83. enkidu Says:

    sorry for the delay, was away on a 3 day camping trip w my eldest and some friends

    shcb your numbers are just plain flat out wrong

    Direct war supplemental of $162.6 billion to continue funding the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan well into 2009. Once again, this is just the money to keep operations supplied etc over there. This number simply does not include equipment losses/replacements, care of wounded, bloat in DoD budget, black box stuff, interest on money we are borrowing to finance dumbya’s folly. I have listed these ‘other’ costs several times, but you refuse to read or understand or whatever.

    the costs are going UP, not down

    as to your whole islamonazi bullhooey, riiiiight… if we didn’t buy gigadollars worth of oil from these idiots their foolishness would be a quaint aboriginal footnote. Solution: reduce our dependence on ME oil. Drill in ANWAR, go solar, go green, raise the CAFE standards, manhattan project for alternative energy etc etc etc. Dumbya is wasting $1.5 to $3.5 trillion dollars searching for his WMDz, can President Obama spend $1.5 to %3.5 trillion getting us off fossil fuels? Thanks!

    Second solution, broker a lasting peace between Israel and her neighbors, you know like the Camp David Accords? 30 plus years of peace between Egypt and Israel is a good start (for a piece of paper). Clinton got the Jordanians on board, now we just need to convince the Syrians and the Iranians we want an equitable peace and Obama will go down in history as one of our greatest leaders (like Carter, Raygun and Clinton). Force Israel to the table and to get out of most of the Occupied Territories.

    But your solution seems to be if we immolate 10 million of them damn dirty apes then the whole problem will disappear in a puff of (radioactive) smoke? No wonder so many people see rwnjs as genocidal idiots: you are genocidal idiots!

  84. enkidu Says:

    or even more

    That would bring the total Iraq – Afghanistan war supplemental for military spending to $178 billion (with more no doubt to be appropriated after the next President assumes office in January 2009). And don’t forget that in a series of votes in October, November and December 2007, Congress already appropriated $86.8 billion for the Iraq – Afghanistan war for this fiscal year.

    This is a far cry from the $50 to $60 billion they promised us.

    heck of a job bushie!

  85. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb,
    Is Hamas and Hezbollah engaged in operations against America, or is it more of a cold war? snicker.

    Why so many soldiers in Iraq if the enemy is in Palestine? snicker.

    Sounds like your big enemy is a criminal element, al Qaeda, not a major political force. If Al Qaeda nukes something in the USA then you are going to kill ten million (innocent people???) in retaliatiation by a nuclear weapon aimed WHERE??? What if an Al Qaeda terrorist cell, based in New Jersey, gets a suitcase nuke and blow up Washington, are you going to nuke New Jersey???

    You said to win we have to change attitudes. The only attitudes you are trying to create in these people is to be subservient and very scared of America, like a whipped dog. Whipped dogs just lie in wait wait for their best opportunity to bite back. You want to change hearts and minds? Start by acting like a moral and civilized people who do not torture and get your military out of lands they have no business being in.

  86. enkidu Says:

    Whoa knarls whoa!
    Not every American backs bushie’s grand misadventure in Iraq.
    And (as every rwnj is eager to tell anyone who will listen) we are winning the hearts and minds Over There with incredible cross-cultural outreaches like this one:

    cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.quran/index.html

    We are electing a new set of reps, senators and a CinC/top nitwit this November. If the Diebold machines don’t steal the election, it should be a landslide for Obama. Just look at three recent special elections, the last one in a MI district that went for bushie big time in the last two elections, the D won in all 3. Now the Ds have to deliver (or clean up after Rs, again) and we can start building out better progressive and liberal ideals like universal health care, green energy, high paying jobs (not just CEOs), smarter taxes, improving education (step one: new GI Bill), a cleaner environment and a humbler foreign policy (no more invasions under false pretenses, k?)

  87. shcb Says:

    Ok, I’ll play the straight man and answer your questions, these are so elementary I’m sure you’re just fun’n me.

    Is Hamas and Hezbollah engaged in operations against America, or is it more of a cold war? snicker

    This is a world war, it is being fought on many fronts by many countries. It is being fought with police and military depending on the situation. Israel is fighting the two H’s we and the Canadians are fighting in Afghanistan, we and the Brits in Iraq. The Russians are fighting Muslim extremists in Chechnya, we are helping the Philippines on their soil, China, France, and Denmark are all having their own problems. This war is being fought by America and our allies, and in some cases our enemies.

    Why so many soldiers in Iraq if the enemy is in Palestine? snicker.

    See above

    Sounds like your big enemy is a criminal element, ….Whipped dogs just lie in wait wait for their best opportunity to bite back. You want to change hearts and minds?.

    That may be what it comes down to. We would rather not turn them into whipped dogs for all the reasons you state, that is why it is so important to win this war in the manner we are winning it. Turning them into whipped dogs will just perpetuate hatred as you say, but if you kill enough of them, civilians included, the will to fight will cease, that is what they are trying to do. We will just be doing it in more a conventional way on a larger scale. The whole idea of terrorism is to kill a few people to intimidate the majority. That is why it is used by weak forces, it is a force multiplier.

    Start by acting like a moral and civilized people who do not torture and get your military out of lands they have no business being in

    We will as soon as they surrender, leaving sooner would be us surrendering.

  88. enkidu Says:

    So your solution is incinerating 10 million muslims and they will ‘surrender’? I think it safe to say that will have exactly the opposite effect. But in your world, ienjs murdered 3000 Americans so we are justified in invading any country we don’t like (or that has things we want, like oil) and we can kill (or be responsible for the deaths of) anywhere between 100,000 and a million (or two?) innocents, and this is your best option for ‘winning’?

    And will you ever address the Iraq war costs? Nope, because your numbers just aren’t based in reality. You are too busy falsely conflating Neville Chamberlain giving away Czechoslovakia with Obama trying to open up some sort of dialog with people we don’t like, we don’t agree with, but must share the planet with (unless McBush goes your route of nuclear holocaust). RWNJs see every problem as a bullet that must be fired to kill The Bad Guy, then reload (and repeat endlessly). Put down the gun Tex, your aim is way off.

  89. shcb Says:

    That’s the way the world works.

    I didn’t address the Iraq numbers because there is nothing else to add. My numbers check out in several different ways and yours are based on a bunch of what ifs that haven’t happened yet. Also mine have not varied, you started out 12 times over where you ended and are still off by a factor of a few.

  90. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb,

    Thanks, I think I understand your thinking about “the enemy” and can safely say that it has virtually no relation to reality.

    I’m not surprised, given that this is who you, and the other 28%rs, want to be your next leader:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtZlR3zp4c

  91. enkidu Says:

    Direct costs of the Iraq War
    So… rwnjs in the dumbya admin promise $50 to $60 billion, but you think they are right on with your low ball On indirect costs of the Iraq War
    I’ll try to use small words for rwnj, but I have gone over this a couple times already: this war is being paid for almost entirely with credit. A strict accounting of the costs of the war must include its financing. Similarly, you can’t leave the 30,000 wounded soldiers with no healthcare, so their care will be a future or indirect cost (I know how fervently rwnj support the troops blah blah blah so I am sure he is behind Jim Webb’s new GI Bill, funny how the rwnjs in congress aren’t). Other costs like DoD budget bloat, black ops, replacing all the equipment, replacing manpower and so forth simply aren’t in the numbers you use.

    Here is a link on DoD bloat: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States
    btw – we spend almost as much as the rest of the world combined (not sure if this included the hundreds of billions a year for Iraq/Afghanistan, probably not)

    A conservative estimate of the current Iraq War costs would be $750 billion for 5 years in direct costs and a similar amount in indirect costs (unless you also plan on incinerating wounded US soldiers with those 10 million Bad Guys). Future costs for another 5 years would be at least what we have spent so far (direct and indirect). Probably more, lots more.

    The McBush Magical Ponies Plan
    If we stay in Iraq for 100 years like gramps McBush wants us to do, we are looking at anywhere from (low side – and here I am cutting in half even your low ball $#s) $50 billion a year x another 100 years = $5 trillion up to (high side) $150 billion a year x 100 years = $15 trillion in direct costs. Indirect costs (which you magically disbelieve) would double these totals. Hmmmm, $10 trillion dollars so rwnjs don’t have to say they fucked up. Or a high side of $30 trillion or more that rwnjs can blame on Dems, sounds like a bargain, eh? If we take the increasing cost trend lines of the last five years and extrapolate them out over 100 years (not generally acceptable accounting principles) the numbers get even bigger and more ludicrous.

    Of course this 100 years of ponies exercise doesn’t include the care and feeding of all the ponies and unicorns and magical goodness that is just going to come pouring out of the Middle East. Hooray!

  92. enkidu Says:

    sorry to post twice but a greater than symbol mangled the start of my post

    Direct costs of the Iraq War
    So… rwnjs in the dumbya admin promise $50 to $60 billion, but you think they are right on with your low ball $500 billion to date. The 2007 supplemental alone was about $170 billion (see reference above). The CBO says we have spent about $666 billion so far in Iraq (see numbers and refs above – some part of this is for Afghanistan, but it is a small part that wasn’t broken out in the last few years of those ref #s) with some estimates going as high as roughly $750 billion for 5 years so far. The cost trend is increasing, but estimates put the direct costs of the Iraq War at $1.5 trillion thru gramps McBush’s promise of ponies for everyone in 2013 (5 more years of multi-billion dollar boondoggle).

    On indirect costs of the Iraq War
    I’ll try to use small words for rwnj, but I have gone over this a couple times already: this war is being paid for almost entirely with credit. A strict accounting of the costs of the war must include its financing. Similarly, you can’t leave the 30,000 wounded soldiers with no healthcare, so their care will be a future or indirect cost (I know how fervently rwnj support the troops blah blah blah so I am sure he is behind Jim Webb’s new GI Bill, funny how the rwnjs in congress aren’t). Other costs like DoD budget bloat, black ops, replacing all the equipment, replacing manpower and so forth simply aren’t in the numbers you use.

    Here is a link on DoD bloat: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States
    btw – we spend almost as much as the rest of the world combined (not sure if this included the hundreds of billions a year for Iraq/Afghanistan, probably not)

    A conservative estimate of the current Iraq War costs would be $750 billion for 5 years in direct costs and a similar amount in indirect costs (unless you also plan on incinerating wounded US soldiers with those 10 million Bad Guys). Future costs for another 5 years would be at least what we have spent so far (direct and indirect). Probably more, lots more.

    The McBush Magical Ponies Plan
    If we stay in Iraq for 100 years like gramps McBush wants us to do, we are looking at anywhere from (low side – and here I am cutting in half even your low ball $#s) $50 billion a year x another 100 years = $5 trillion up to (high side) $150 billion a year x 100 years = $15 trillion in direct costs. Indirect costs (which you magically disbelieve) would double these totals. Hmmmm, $10 trillion dollars so rwnjs don’t have to say they fucked up. Or a high side of $30 trillion or more that rwnjs can blame on Dems, sounds like a bargain, eh? If we take the increasing cost trend lines of the last five years and extrapolate them out over 100 years (not generally acceptable accounting principles) the numbers get even bigger and more ludicrous.

    Of course this 100 years of ponies exercise doesn’t include the care and feeding of all the ponies and unicorns and magical goodness that is just going to come pouring out of the Middle East. Hooray!

  93. shcb Says:

    So let’s look at your latest numbers. If we have spent 750 billion which sounds reasonable, then we have spent $2,500 per person total. If the total cost of the war including health care for the injured and such is double that over the next couple decades, again reasonable, that is about $250 per person per year, $20,000 for a family of four in 20 years, still half or one eighth your original assertion depending on whether the $45,000 was per person or a family of 4. (And I’m giving you the 20 years, our discussion was 5) So let’s go long term, 30 trillion over 100 years is $1000 per person per year still a long way off from your assertion. Now this doesn’t include increases in population that too would help me.

    One would think replacement costs would be included in the direct cost. Long term costs (100 years) wouldn’t be included in the cost of the war unless we were still fighting an active war which is highly unlikely. The ongoing cost would be for maintaining and staffing bases in the area. This would be included in the normal operating budget. Soldiers have to serve somewhere, whether it be Iran, Iraq, Germany or Alabama.

    So why do I keep pressing on this issue? Because it is so typical of liberals. Why is it you guys insist on exaggerating facts so? 13 trillion for the war, 650,000 killed, or was it a million, or 1.3 mil? The amount of life and treasure is huge even without exaggeration, this war has cost more than the GNP of Argentina, it is costing enough to pay for Canada’s entire defense budget for the next 50 years (operating costs of one carrier battle group is more than their whole budget, and we have 12 or 13 Nimitz class carriers). I’m baffled, you guys can make good arguments without exaggeration.

  94. shcb Says:

    correction, we have 10 Nimitz class carriers, I think I was thinking of Ohio class subs. I was wrong even there, we have 18.

  95. knarlyknight Says:

    Lies the media tells us, exposed. Look at the McCain Paul comparison. Cool.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iW5kOB1pmg

  96. knarlyknight Says:

    what’s the cost of US military labour? $50,000 x 150,000 troops serving in Iraq? It’s peanuts (billions of peanuts) compared to the Billions of choppers, humvees bombs etc. getting blown to bits or warn out and left to rot in the sands.

  97. shcb Says:

    Its about 7.5 billion, so what’s your point? We have about a million and a half soldiers on active duty with about the same number in reserve. It takes a bunch people to support one soldier, I forget the number but it was 4 or 20, something like that, enough to make you go “wow”. Of course how you account for those support people and other things is why numbers of the cost vary. If a tank or plane is destroyed but it is just a couple years from being replaced with a new model do you write off the original purchase price, the cost of the new model, or prorate it somehow? You have an accounting degree, you understand there are proper ways to account for things because those methods just make sense, but there is some wiggle room at the margins. The main thing is to be consistent, this war is going to cost what ever it will cost, all these numbers are just to compare it to other wars and other budget items.

    A company is hiring a new CEO, they have three candidates, an engineer, an accountant, and a guy from marketing. They are all fairly equal in qualifications so the board of directors asks them all for one more interview, the question asked each is “what is two plus two”. The engineer spends several frantic minutes punching numbers into his calculator, looking at tables and such and finally looks up and declares “4.02”. The marketing guy asks an array of personal questions from the board, confers with his assistants who are on their laptops doing market research while he stalls, in the end he proudly states they can have 2 plus 2 for only 3.98. (but only today). The accountant ponders the situation for a few minutes, scrunches his eyes a bit, tips his head to the right just a little and says “what do you want it to be?”

  98. enkidu Says:

    my numbers are:
    roughly $750 billion in direct costs so far (wiki says $500 B thru fYr 2007 ending in 3/08, with another $170 B+ for fiscal Year 2008)
    indirect costs of approx $750 billion so far
    total $1.5 trillion

    neocon estimates were $50 to $60 B… total

    McBush sees us in Iraq for at least the next 5 years (perhaps as many as 100 magical pony filled years!), so double those numbers (ignoring the plain fact that the costs are rising, not falling) $3 trillion dollars.

    Siglitz says the true numbers may be even higher, but I am using conservative estimates throughout. The costs are horrendous and debilitating to America and the world economy. This is the second most expensive conflict ever (only conflict more expensive on inflation adjusted dollars is WW2).

    But just keep pretending you are the one pressing the issue (actually I am, and I finally have you agreeing the war is about $750 B direct thus far but you still magically disbelieve any costs not directly associated with the $750 B in direct expense budget supplementals). Is it any wonder I added the satyrical 100 years of magic ponies in Iraq part? RWNJs just can’t use real world numbers without partisan distortion.

    And the answer to your little fable is 4.
    I am sure this is quite the surprise to you. 2+2=4

    But please continue to act like a child and the libs n dems n progs n greens and the good and true heartland of America will sweep the corrupt remains of the Rethugs into the trash bin come November.

  99. shcb Says:

    Are the costs going up into perpetuity (my exaggeration) the same as JBC’s comparison with Vietnam and Iraqi death counts mirroring each other? Didn’t happen by the way, only wishful thinking on anti war types. That monthly comparison kind of petered out didn’t it?

  100. knarlyknight Says:

    enk,
    take it easy on shcb, it is sad enough for him that his political heroes are being stampeded by the voters to a buffalo jump; if they are not frog marched out of office first.

    shcb,
    What’s my point? Pretty much the points that you raised. Glad we’re on the same page.

    By the way, accounting is a long way away from economics. The economist would tell you that 2+2=5.05, because there is a “lost opportunity cost of 1 from the suboptimal use of the first ‘2’ – since that ‘2’ could have been used for a more profitable / productive calculation, and because using the first “2” in the equation causes an inflation so that the true cost of the second “2” is actually 2.05; therefore 2+2 = 3+2.05 = 5.05

  101. knarlyknight Says:

    “That monthly comparison sort of petered out didn’t it?”

    Yes, it served the purpose(s) that jbc stated in each introduction to the graphs.

    And you are right that it did not serve the purpose proposed in your straw man argument against it. Congratulations for acheiving nothing except our dissappointment in your incessant attempts to re-frame arguments into cartoonish partisan paradigms.

    By the way, how are the totals for the last couple of months? Hopefully they are still trending down…

  102. NorthernLite Says:

    Question:
    What do McCain, Bush and Osama Bin Laden have in common?

    Answer:
    They won’t talk to their enemies.

  103. enkidu Says:

    NL, um, they are all extremist nutjobs?

    rwnj – perpetrating a nuclear holocaust against 10 million (mostly innocent) muslims is just going to piss off the other 1 Billion muslims, big time.

    They won’t ‘surrender’, they will simply ask the Pakistanis for their nuke arsenal to use against US coastal cities. What then? Do we incinerate another 10 million innocents? Another 100 million?

    Negotiation and talks are not the same as appeasement, despite your islamonazi wetdreams.

    The ienjs are criminal fringe elements that you rwnjs are giving power to, they would be marginalized and powerless without the big bad Satan to rail against. Force the Israelis and arab nations to the peace table and don’t stop until we have the Camp David Accords II. That will take most of the wind out of the ienjs. Sure they don’t like western culture (neither do rwnjs for that matter), but the future marches on. Get with the program: more freedom, more liberal societies, more trade, more interdependence, more tolerance of other cultures etc.

  104. knarlyknight Says:

    Enk,
    You reminded me of a thought percolating for a while. That is that the projection (through the mass media) of rwnj fears about a miniscule portion of the Arab population onto virtually the entire Muslim world has created a self-perpetuating and growing problem that is only benefitting: (i) the most radical extremists who can use abuses like Abu Ghraib for promoting their causes; and, (ii) those who want to hold on to power in the USA and those who profit from war. rwnj’s do not understand that ignorance begets fear which begets intolerance and intolerance begets violence and violence begets violence ad nauseum.

  105. NorthernLite Says:

    enkidu – your answer would be acceptable as well.

  106. enkidu Says:

    actually NL, I’m an Independent voter (actually NA or No Affiliation, or as I like to call it “None of those Assholes”) and to be quite honest I think McBush is the least extremist nutjob of the three.

    But after watching him dry hump dumbya’s leg for the last 8 years, there is no way in hell I’ll vote for him. 2000? He would have been a much better R candidate. It would have been a real toss-up for me back then… Gore? McCain? I prolly still would have voted for Gore, but dumbya? A dry drunk jesus freak with a spotty military record and a cocaine problem? It would have taken a Diebold machine for my vote to register as ‘for’ dumbya.

  107. shcb Says:

    Knarly,

    By the way, accounting is a long way …therefore 2+2 = 3+2.05 = 5.05

    I like that, you probably learned that in economics 101, I’ll bet it got real screwy after that. Some of the justifications I’ve seen companies use must have come from guys with doctorates. One division renting space from another to the point the renter was inefficient, that sort of thing. :-)

    Yes, it served the purpose(s) that jbc stated in each introduction to the graphs.

    It’s my contention JBC had ulterior motives, kind of like when liberals say they support the troops right before they trash them, or conservatives say they are against corporate welfare as they are lobbying for another pork project that will enhance their company’s bottom line. I think he was hoping the Iraq death toll line would rise, without wishing ill on any soldiers.

    I haven’t looked at the numbers for quite a while.

  108. shcb Says:

    for what it’s worth

    http:// shcb.blogspot.com/2008/05/iraq-dead. html

  109. shcb Says:

    it didn’t go through the first time, you’ll have to take out the spaces, I don’t know why I’m telling you guys that, I learned the trick from you.

  110. enkidu Says:

    so 50+ dead last month is good?
    I would want that to be zero

    you can’t count May until it is over (only 2/3s done thus far and reporting lags the end of the month btw) Actually the trend line was going up for the last few months. The surge lowered US casualties, but is unsustainable.

    I wonder what the chart of Iraqi dead looks like? Oh right, we don’t count anyone else. And any dead Iraqi is a dead AQI anyway right? Booya! We’ve killed about a million Bad Guys so far! Only 9 million to go, right rwnj?

  111. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb,

    Support for the troops does not mean support for the mission.

    I support the troops’ right to refuse to fight in the illegal (and infinitely immoral) Iraq war.

    I support the troops right to refuse illegal orders to torture.

    I also support the troops to the point of getting them home alive, out of the monstrous Iraqi civil strife that they had a major role in bringing to life.

    Seems that you support the troops continuing right to die horribly expensive deaths for the possibility of ever diminishing probabilities of success after sinking ever increasing billions of America’s treasure into middle eastern black holes. Either that or you support the troops in order to protect prez dumbya’s egotistical desire not to be seen as a loser in yet another stage of his life (Harkin Energy debacle, baseball franchise owner, tainted victor of highly divisive and disputed elections, etc.)

    As for the JBC having ulterior motives, I’d say it was more cautionary. If the line started to track Vietnam, and ever increasing number of your children were being enlisted to go there to die, his graphs would have presented a highly cautionary picture. As it is, perhaps it serves an even more important purpose for him now: to re-assure himself that America is not hemmoraging young American lives at the same despicable rate as you did in 1968 or earlier until 1972. Your leaders have done a great job of keeping the press far, far away from all the funeral services. Had they had such powers in the Vietnam era to control the press you may have had triple the number of deaths then before the public finally caught on to the madness of your military industiral debacles in SE Asia.

  112. shcb Says:

    When I criticize liberals for not supporting the troops, it is in reference to them almost automatically assuming any report of abuse or atrocities by soldiers (and police) are factual when in most cases they aren’t. In some cases the charges are true, Abu Ghraib and a case where three or four guys raped and murdered a girl have proven to be true and the people involved have been punished. But remember the deserter who ran to Canada saying he had been part of two hundred atrocities and we then found out he hadn’t even been to Iraq. (I may be mixing two stories there). At that time I said we should wait to see if his story holds up, all you guys were writing that this is typical of soldiers and the like. The guy was a complete fraud but you all couldn’t wait to stereotype the entire military. You guys do the same thing with any story of police abuse, you assume they are guilty way before the facts, or ever the other side of the story are out.

    Criticizing the mission is ok, but liberals, you guys included, typically criticize anymilitary action that is defending the United State’s interests. You have no problem if we are helping some poor fourth world country but let there be a drop of oil to be found and you are against it. There is no legitimate analysis there. Most of you have had to swallow Afghanistan because of 911 but when I listen to people like you on the radio and in person you can tell in their voices they would rather be getting a root canal than admitting support for Afghanistan, but they have no choice if they are going to have even a thread of credibility.

    I’m a little confused by the last half of the last paragraph, we were informed every night on the news of the deaths that day in Viet Nam, we also saw pictures of them dying just a few hours before. In this war we are informed of the deaths almost immediately. The press doesn’t need to be at the funerals, that is a private time of great sorrow and emotion for some very private citizens, leave them be.

    My contention still is that liberals in the press and in general pride themselves on stopping the Viet Nam war, we lost, liberals and the communists won. Liberals want to win this war as well.

  113. shcb Says:

    Enky,

    that is why I said “for what it’s worth” I too was hoping it would be lower. actually civilian deaths and even attacks are way down as well. By about 50% I believe.

  114. enkidu Says:

    Please show me the post, any post where I said “200 hundred atrocities? typical!” or something to that effect.
    Allow me save you the time, you simply won’t find it.
    I’ll hazard to guess that my Canadian friends were just being supportive of someone who wanted out of dumbya’s fuckup.

    Based on your comment above, you haven’t listened to a thing I have ever said on Afghanistan.

    So Alan Greenspan is now a dfh as well? Because he admits it was always all about the oil in Iraq: it was never about the WMDz. There never were any WMDz and we knew it (well, anyone who bothered to look into it).

    Just keep wrapping yourself in the flag (more like the bloody shirt), pretending everyone else is to blame for your neocon screwups. Liberals do want to win this war, and bring our boys home. Dumbya’s folly must come to an end. You rwnjs can whine about getting out of Iraq for the next forty years, but getting the hell out of there is the right thing to do.

    btw where is that dead or alive fella, ol whatsizname? Osama bin Forgotten?

  115. knarlyknight Says:

    For the record, I supported America’s Afghanistan mission, but not for the reason you cite. The Taliban did not commit 911 and offered to hand OBL over on a very reasonable condition: that evidence against him be provided first. The USA did not do so because they had no credible evidence to make the claims against him that they were making starting on 9/12. I supported the mission in Afghanistan because the Taliban are barbaric, hypocritical assholes much like your Commander in Chief, only the Taliban are a little less tolerant of cultural differences.

    I say supported, as I no longer support the mission there as it is obviously a lame duck effort due to diversion of resources to Iraq. That has caused an inability to keep enough security to complete the most basic public works that would be required to win the hearts and minds.

    Politically it is problematic as some of the worst war-lords are now governing the most corrupt administration imaginable.

    The police are feared and hated, the people consider them a nuisance at best for their roadblocks to extort cash from travellers. Few, if any, Afghani at all would approach the police with a problem.

    I do not support the current mission in Afghanistan because it is, in fact, aiding and abetting the Taliban in re-establishing their hold over vast areas of the country.

    Besides, the USA and its allies in Kandahar hand over children as young as 13 to the secret police who are known torturers, rather than to UNESCO and other NGO’s who are there specifically to protect the rights of children and withdraw tem from conflict, as established by treaties in international law, which, by the way Canada and the USA are now in clear violation.

    A “few” people who committed the crimes in Abu Ghraib were punished you say? The prison holds thousands upon thousands of people and the torture is systemic NOT a few isolated cases as you so willingly wish to believe.

    Funerals may be private, and that may be a bad example EXCEPT in the cases where the family wants the press there but are not allowed. I’m talking about more than that, like the establishment of “free speach zones” for protesters and the banning of photos of coffins and the embedding of reporters rather than a freedom to report the news as the reporter sees the news rather than as what the military wants them to see or tells them to print. You know that’s true, quit playing stupid.

    I didn’t hear about the deserter in Canada turning out to be a complete fraud. Are you sure? As sure as you are about the army’s story about Pat Tillman? I mean the army’s first story about how he was killed bravely fighting the enemy, no wait the second story where … , no wait not those lies I mean the story told by his buddy right beside him when he was shot by friendly fire, no wait, I mean … whatever. Are you as sure as that?

    Vietnam. You say you lost that war??? OMG, you are more arrogant than I thought. That was not a loss for America, you Americans simply went home. The Vietnamese people LOST, they paid for it with their lives and with years and years of birth defects from agnent orange etc. and with having to endure the communist sadists who took over. America lost nothing, except their excuse to support weapons manufacturers at the same rate.

    I hope America never really loses a war, the whining from the likes of you would be too much to stand.

    America could leave Iraq and save a whole bunch of cash; Iraq would be in turmoil for years. That is not even close to losing a war.

    Losing a war is being subject to genocide, or having to pay reparations to the victor or living under conditions established by your enemy’s occupying forces. That last one sounds a lot like what most Iraqi’s think has happened to them. American military going home would make most Iraqi’s celebrate, heck they might even figure out eventually how silly it is to fight among themselves now that the big bully is gone (America the bully I mean, not Saddam the bully). Stranger things have happened.

  116. knarlyknight Says:

    By the way, I looked up the three US army deserters to Canada that have been in the news and one of them served in Iraq and was involved in over 200 house raids. In my opinion (not his words): he got sick of BEING A TERRORIST against Iraqi civilians, by acting according to standard operating procedures and terrifying obviously innocent people. Google reveals nothing (nothing!) to suggest his account is false.

    So again, shcb, it seems you are wrong, mixed up, confused. Or maybe I missed something? Tell me, what part of his searing and candidly honest account can you demonstrate to be false? http://www.joshkey.com

    If you can’t demonstrate that substantial elements of Joshua Key’s account are false, then that qualifies as another of your stupid straw men arguments. I’ll throw that on to the back of the camel that is trying to take you seriously, sooner or later its back will break and I won’t be able to take you seriously at all.

  117. enkidu Says:

    Well done knarls, I suspected it was rwnj’s usual conflation and partisan douchebaggery. Kick down the door of a few hundred innocent Iraqi’s homes and eventually you get sick of being dumbya’s tool.

    rwnj – one word for you: google (before you spew your usual partisan crap)
    the extra seven words are a free

  118. enkidu Says:

    tell you what, I’ll even help you out by showing you how it works:

    go to google.com
    select advanced search
    next find the area that allows you to limit your search to a specific domain
    enter “lies.com” (without the quotes)
    now scroll back up and enter your search terms
    use quotes around exact phrases you want searched
    I put in “atrocity” and then “canada”

    turns out shcb is the only one accusing this poor sap of any sort of Iraq atrocity

    I refer to the “atrocity of 9/11″ (in reference to Ghouliani basing his entire campaign on 9/11 9/11 9/11 (9/11)

    pwnd

  119. knarlyknight Says:

    “In their own words,” we the people DO NOT KNOW the whole truth about why these two wars were started. shcb thinks we’re in Afghanistan in response to 911. Maybe, but likely not. The investigation has not been made public, secrets are being hidden at it looks like some very bad people are being protected. Take the stock exchange money trail that could implicate people responsible for the 911 attacks for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd0Vwg6DVPI

  120. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb said:

    You have no problem if we are helping some poor fourth world country but let there be a drop of oil to be found and you are against it.

    No, a drop of oil is not enough. It is only when a LOT of oil is at stake that questions of an ULTERIOR MOTIVE naturally arise in the minds of all people except for the most gullible fools. http://www.business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article3964957.ece
    Congratulations.

  121. shcb Says:

    Thanks for the tips guys, that helps a lot. As I feared I mixed a couple of these guys together in my example, Keys is the deserter from Oklahoma that ran to Canada, Jessie MacBeth is the guy that never went to Iraq, was never a Ranger, in fact he didn’t even make it out of basic. This is the first thing Knarly said about Joshua Key;

    I was against the war from the outset because GI’s act like this to people when they invade foreign lands:

    (March 7, 2007 22:17 What would have justified war)
    That was his first reaction, we continued the discussion on “Dwyer on loose change”. After I cautioned we should wait and see if there was any truth to his story, Knarly backed off a bit, now Knarles is back stating Key’s statements as fact. I have searched all over the web and have not found one instance of his stories being verified. Places like the Daily Kos love the guy and repeat his statements many times. There are thousands of sites that quote him but none that I saw give any evidence he is telling the truth, they just repeat the same quotes over and over. Key was simply lying to save his skin.

    Here is a site of another Ft Carson soldier that is taking Key to task over some of his statements. I especially like the parts where he gets into Keys assertions that he wasn’t properly trained. These guys train all the time for any eventuality. I had a sergeant from Ft Carson stay with me for the better part of week a few weeks ago. He was in town training for the riots at the Democratic convention in August. I was at a National Guard armory last weekend and they too were drilling for the riots, they were practicing with a couple dozen first responders from area fire departments, complete with a couple Blackhawks making mock landings to evacuate wounded.

    If they go through all this trouble for the KKK, Black Panthers, and Recreate 68 I think they probably brief the guys before they go into a war zone.

    http://rokdrop.com/2007/03/24/useful-idiot-joshua-key/

  122. enkidu Says:

    wait a second, the Army is now billeting sargents in rwnj’s home? riiiiight
    sorry, I am calling bullshit on that (and the whole, therez gonna be riots! crap… the only way there will be riots is if rwnjs start them)
    maybe he is a ‘surge’nt in some rwnj militia?

    Your claim was that “all you guys were writing that this is typical of soldiers”
    not only were none of us damn dirty libs writing anything even remotely similar to claiming this guy committed 200 atrocities, but the only person who brought up atrocities in the discussion was (drumroll please) you.

    Please, if you voted for dumbya the last two pres elections, just realize that you totally fucked up and shouldn’t vote for the next two cycles. Let’s let the grown ups run the country for a while, k? But I am certain that you will continue to just make shit up, wrap yourself in the flag and pretend it is everyone else’s fault but yours. Typical.

    You are about 0 for 200 here rwnj, quit while you are ahead.

  123. enkidu Says:

    and that rokdrop site is full of rwnj bs as well

    I stopped reading the comments after I came across this (typical of rwnj sites really) “Typical crybaby for the left. He’s a useful idiot dancing on the strings of the Islamofascists. The Dhimmicrat Party hacks are the REAL enemy of America.” (comment #21, facts are so damn liberal, eh?)

    commenter 21 (Gunny G) has no idea what being a real American really means.
    Islamofascists? Grow up little boy. You rwnjs are making ienjs immeasurably stronger. Probably the most fascist state in the ME is the Saudi Kingdom, you know, dumbya’s hand-holding bluebell-skipping buddies. When you fill up at the pump, make sure you loudly thank the pretzelnitwit for the great economy, cheap gas, world peace and American leadership! (end satire)

    I look forward to President Obama repairing some of the damage, but it will take decades to fix dumbya’s douchebaggery.

    Hey btw where is that dead r alive feller? Osama bin Forgotten?
    (crickets)

  124. knarlyknight Says:

    Enk,

    Thanks for addressing that. I am sooo tired of dealing with shcb’s incessant drivel.

    It’s no wonder the rwnj’s took over your country: balanced and intelligent people will only put up with lunatics like that for so long before they get fed up and leave to engage in more soul enhancing interactions. C ya later.

    Enk, would you agree that the first comment by ymattt on the new thread applies to shcb as much as McCain?

  125. shcb Says:

    The soldier that stayed with me is a friend, our wives were in California with four dogs at the USA Sieger show. He had to bring his wife to Denver to drop her off at the airport one evening then return the next three days for classes and then again to pick her up, the Army would have put him up in a hotel for two nights or paid mileage, but he still would have had to make two extra 250 mile trips. It seemed rather silly to do all that when I was going to be alone in that big old house ten miles from the airport. He stayed with me, he got to eat free home cookin’ drink free beer, and I got a buddy to watch Nascar with all weekend. Thanks for asking before jumping to conclusions.

    As to the rest of posts: :-)

  126. enkidu Says:

    I dunno knarls, for a while there I thought there was hope for dear old rwnj, but of late the crazy % has gone way up. The strawmen seem endless and the impugning of others and partisan whinging are just growing tiresome. I used to enjoy rwnj’s humor, but that seems little in evidence of late (other than your recipe swap – creme de cassis heh).

    McBush seems willing to flip flop on anything to get his @$$ into the oval office. This guy lost his bearings (both navigational and rotational) years ago and is now nothing but a cheap piece of summer footwear.

  127. shcb Says:

    Enky,

    I hadn’t read the comments, but I can see why you like 21 so much, you guys speak the same language.

  128. enkidu Says:

    see what I mean? not funny
    and the douchebag nonsense % is nearly 100%

  129. knarlyknight Says:

    yup.

  130. enkidu Says:

    Also, I find it extremely interesting that your Army buddy is being trained for ‘riots’ in Denver… isn’t riot control a police matter?
    posse comitatas anyone?
    and if he is undergoing official training, why isn’t he billeted on a base?
    something smells with your ‘story’

    Or are you rwnjs planning something?
    just asking, since lies.com had a post a while back about ‘agents provocateur’ (which was pretty blatant – once the police agents were confronted by the peaceful protestors, they closed ranks and basically ran away after a mock ‘arrest’)

  131. shcb Says:

    The reason he wasn’t “billeted” is because he was more comfortable here. There is nothing in the constitution that says a soldier can’t stay in a private residence, just that the homeowner can’t be forced to house him. He is a National Guardsman, if I recall his story correctly, he was soldier all his adult life, when he married my wife’s friend he found himself with a wife and son to support. He hated life in the private sector, he just liked being a soldier. After 911 they were looking for support people so the young guys could go fight. He was too old to re-enlist in the army but not the guard so they worked out a deal where he technically is a guardsman, but he is on loan to the army, and he got to keep part time employment with his old company so he is making more money all totaled, he was reinstated at his old rank and is accruing seniority for his pension. He’s a happy guy now.

    He was in town training with the police, the police will of course try and handle any riot situation. The guard are only there as back up. They aren’t being officially called up before the convention because if they were the City or the DNC would have to pay all the costs associated with that deployment. So what they are doing is scheduling “training exercises” for the weekend before and after and the week of the convention. You can bet all the beds will be full then.

    The KKK and Black Panthers have both taken out permits to protest that week. Recreate 68 was denied a permit since they were all but promising to riot. They have said they will be here anyway. They somehow think that by reliving the glory days of the ’68 Democratic convention in Chicago they can stop the war or something. Trouble is a brewn’.

  132. enkidu Says:

    unless your buddy Sgt Slaughter is a MP or medic of some kind then I am thinking the trouble may already be brewed up by wwnj forces: posse comitatus restricts the use of the Army for internal security matters better left to the police and FBI etc.

    If your pal already knows there is going to be trouble, who is starting it? Do you guys have a plan to incite violence? The recreate 68 site talks about people power(ed politics and protest). I didn’t see any incitement to violence.

    Perhaps he is part of a state army or militia?

  133. shcb Says:

    He’s National Guard asshole. I don’t get pissed often, but you guys are pricks sometimes. Oh, Knarly, my daughter is planning on serving her country after she graduates from college, it’s a prerequisite for being an FBI agent.

    What does this have to do with the right wing? Denver is and always has been a Democratic enclave in a Republican state. To the best of my knowledge there are only two Republican city councilmen, Charlie Brown and Peggy Lehmann, the rest of the city government is as liberal as they come. The convention is being held in the City and County of Denver, not the six county metro district, no right wing anything in sight. The FBI would never be involved in something like this, police first, National Guard second, you are so ignorant sometimes.

  134. enkidu Says:

    same to you
    If you don’t know what posse comitatus is about, please stfu

    you referred to him as “army’ so i took you at your word
    here I’ll quote you “the Army would have put him up in a hotel for two nights”
    sounds pretty definitive that this guy was a Guardsman but is now on loan to the Army (or reichwing militia). My question still stands (and as usual isn’t addressed by your o-so-civil asshole comments) why is the Army training for riots? Once again, is he a MP or a medic? If not, then I think your story is bullshit or you perhaps housed some extremist rwnj (oooops wwnj) who is planning on stirring up trouble. Judging by your postings the most likely of those two theories is that you are helping some right wing whackjob commit a crime by inciting violence.

    I would think anyone left of wwnj would be protesting and rioting at the Rethugglican convention (where are they holding that? Guantanimo? Ohrdruf? Baghdad?)

  135. enkidu Says:

    btw you are Wrong as usual on the FBI’s involvement with protesters:

    this is just one recent article snip:

    What they were looking for, Carroll says, was an informant—someone to show up at “vegan potlucks” throughout the Twin Cities and rub shoulders with RNC protestors, schmoozing his way into their inner circles, then reporting back to the FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force, a partnership between multiple federal agencies and state and local law enforcement. The effort’s primary mission, according to the Minneapolis division’s website, is to “investigate terrorist acts carried out by groups or organizations which fall within the definition of terrorist groups as set forth in the current United States Attorney General Guidelines.”

    Carroll would be compensated for his efforts, but only if his involvement yielded an arrest. No exact dollar figure was offered.

    “I’ll pass,” said Carroll.

    For 10 more minutes, Mazzola and Swanson tried to sway him. He remained obstinate.

    articles.citypages.com/2008-05-21/news/moles-wanted/

    note – capitalism at its best: he only gets paid if it leads to an arrest

    o yeah, those vegans
    let me get this straight, the wwnjs are scared of folks so passive that they won’t even steal honey from bees… but, suddenly they are terrorists if they want to carry a sign that says bush sucks?

    snicker

  136. shcb Says:

    Sometimes “army” is used as a catchall for the armed forces in general, in this case I should have said National Guard since they would have been the ones paying the bill not the Army, my mistake. I would guess these preparations are made in any city having a political convention, G8 summit, Olymics, or anything like this that has the potential for anarchists and such to gather and get some face time on TV. The reason wwnj’s aren’t going to protest is we don’t know how, it’s not what we do, we would have to take time off work and would probably throw out our backs.

    I’m sure the FBI and Secret Service are involved with the intelligence aspects of thwarting these riots, but not crowd control, that would be Police and National Guard.

  137. shcb Says:

    Denver could face a “dangerous situation” on the first day of the Democratic National Convention, war protesters said Thursday, after losing a coveted permit for Civic Center to the convention host committee.

    “When things blow up because the police have to enforce a permit that the Democrats got, don’t blame us for that,” said Glenn Spagnuolo, an organizer for the Re-create 68 Alliance.

    “Blame the Democrats for trying to silence dissent in the city of Denver.”

    We in Denver have a long history with Glenn Spagnuolo, he is one of the pukes that makes trouble every year at the Columbus Day parade. So believe whatever the Recreate 68 website says at your peril.

  138. shcb Says:

    More information on your bee lovers. In case you’re not familiar Westword is a small local newspaper/magazine, Patty Calhoun is the editor, fine lady, liberal to the core but very reasonable and rational. Westword is to the left of the Denver Post so this isn’t a rightwing organization by any stretch.

    The throng of demonstrators — 500 according to police, 1,500 according to protest organizers — had taken over the intersection of 15th and Stout streets, unfurling banners and emptying a bucket filled with fake blood and dismembered baby dolls…Earlier in the week, Spagnuolo had declared that “the time to talk is over,”… Spagnuolo had a white bandanna hanging around his neck, ready for tear gas. This was one of the precautions he’d urged at a planning meeting; other suggestions including packing a granola bar for a snack during arrest-processing and a credit card to secure bond quickly…And at the end of the day, all anyone could talk about was what would happen in Denver next year — not on Columbus Day, but at the Democratic National Convention..

    http://www.westword.com/2007-10-25/news/recreate-68-plans-to-do-just-that/

  139. knarlyknight Says:

    OMG shcg, that’s ! Imagine, and doll parts??? Don’t they know the wwnj’s have a surplus of real body parts in Iraq? What a waste. No wonder the rethugs are so upset.

    Be very careful: today it’s white bandana’s, granola bars and a credit card, then tomorrow it’ll be tiaras, carnation instant breakfast and paypal. The HORRORS, these guys are really bad, no wonder you are so upset.

  140. knarlyknight Says:
  141. shcb Says:

    They never most of the body parts in New York.

  142. shcb Says:

    Besides, the point of my posts isn’t about what they are protesting, the Glens will protest anything, the more violent the confrontation between the police and them gets the better in their minds. Means is the only one of the three that is serious about the cause. No, the point of my posts is that you guys are once again blubbering on and on about something you know absolutely nothing about, and have no intention of learning even the basics of the issue. Your only objective is bashing conservatives/Republicans. Republicans have absolutely no dog in this fight, this is a city run by Democrats (like New Orleans) in a state run by Democrats (like Louisiana), the event is the Democratic convention. Where in any of that is there a Republican?

    Here’s an update, it seems the Glens will get their day in the sun, just not where and when they wanted, the DNC get’s that spot, and for good reason, Civic Center park is a photogenic location between the capital and the Civic Center, it will be a nice place for the pre convention festivities. Of course the Glens wanted it for the same reason.

    http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/May/19/protesters-find-a-home/

  143. enkidu Says:

    The vegan-potluck post isn’t about some skinhead (you sure he isn’t a rwnj or wwnj?) who incites people to violent protest. Actually, reading that link you provided makes him sound, I dunno, human? My example was to counter your “The FBI would never be involved in something like this” statement. They are paying a bounty for inciting folks to inappropriate protest.

    Clearly violent protest is anti-productive, but I can see where you might have to use strong measures. Resistance to illegitimate ‘authority’ is as American as apple pie. For one example, take the Boston tea party. It was basically masked radicals damaging property and perhaps harming loyalist guards or bystanders. That we now view these actions only in the noblest light is history. The dumbya regime would seem pretty damn illegitimate to me (and about 95% of the rest of humanity).

    Perhaps I should make examples of rwnjs who openly advocate a 2xHolocaust to solve ‘the muslim problem’? Oh wait, that is you dear wwnj! You can’t shoot straight, so please stop shooting. Time to let the competent folks run the country fer a spell.

  144. shcb Says:

    I have no doubt the Glens will be the darlings of the lefty’s at Lies.com before the end of August. Spagnuolo takes your fear and loathing of police and the military to a level you don’t have the guts to go to. He taunts them hoping they will strike back. Before Spagnuolo and Morris got involved in the Columbus Day protests the battles were fought mostly in the courtroom and on the sidewalk from Means, then Morris got involved and the spectacle got uglier. It didn’t get dangerous until Spagnuolo got involved, he was younger, more brash, and he was Italian, he was of the same nationality as Columbus giving them credibility. The fact that the expedition was Spanish was irrelevant since we have seen in the last few posts and many before history is of little use to Liberals, except for rewriting it. It’s fitting Spagnuolo’s tactics of sending the old and crippled out first to distract his adversaries is also the favorite tactic of his new favorite cause, the Islamofascists.

    The danger with Glen is he is sure to be planning, wishing for in fact, a violent confrontation with police, for some reason that seems to be his objective. The problem is that the Denver Police have shown they are barely equal to the challenge of dealing with this guy. They have always been able to handle what he dreams up, but it overwhelms their rescores. He is a nobody city employee from Longmont that loves his day in the sun. The danger will be that there will be all kinds of other degenerate groups looking for their fifteen minutes as well. Spagnuolo will use those groups as cover just as he uses cripples.

    I hope the Denver Police with the help of the feds keep one step ahead of these guys and there is no violence, but I won’t be visiting Denver that week, I have advised my wife to either bring her work home or work from the Longmont branch that week. It’s going to be a mess.

    By the way, he was involved in the Ward Churchill fiasco too, I believe Dan Calpis filed a lawsuit against him, but I don’t think it went anywhere.

  145. shcb Says:

    …and that’s where the National Guard comes in.

  146. enkidu Says:

    I find it very odd that you describe your pal Sarge being in the Army or on loan to the Army or whatever next best suits your ‘reasoning’, yet the Law clearly states that the Army is not to be used for internal security purposes, except when approved by Congress (dumbya tried to grab those internal war powers too, but my recollection is the motion was rebuffed). So unless you are brewing up some kind of super duper catastrophe, why is your buddy on loan to the Army? The Army shouldn’t even be on the list of people to call for a riot. The Guard sure, maybe they borrow some vehicles and supplies from the Army, but calling in the Army for some rowdy protesters? Give me a break. Unless… you plan on something a bit bigger… some sort of false flag operation to galvanize public opinion… hmmmmm

    Plus I love how you have no problem at all with the KKK protesting the Ds. Will you be wearing your white or red robes? Or are you letting your hair grow in and beard out a bit so you can play under-cover vegan?

  147. shcb Says:

    Why is this so hard for you to understand? My buddy is in the National Guard, if he were in the Army he wouldn’t be involved. He is stationed at an Army base (Ft Carson) doing work for the Army, I believe he is a supply sergeant, he also does funerals, color guard, that type of thing if he had not retired and then re-enlisted he would still be in the Army and would not have spent the weekend with me. There is nothing sinister going on here, I’m sure the same preparations are being made for the Republican convention.

    I frankly don’t care who protests the convention as long as they do it peacefully and I don’t have to listen to them. I think it is silly to have the KKK and the Black Panthers in the same zip code but that is a price you pay for living in a free society. The closest I have to get to this impending free for all is about 12 miles, too close for me.

  148. enkidu Says:

    So lessee, your old ‘Army’ buddy is a Guardsman, but is on loan to the Army. right… Your story is doesn’t pass the sniff test. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

    iirc
    The Army can only be called in to restore domestic order by Congress.
    The National Guard can be called up by the governor of the afflicted state.
    You seem to have a curious way of confusing Army and Guard, but whatever… it sure sounds like the wwnjs have something up their sleeve.

    You are basically telling us that the Army is set to be called in to restore order. Why would Sgt Slaughter (a retired Guardsman) be on loan to the Army? He isn’t a medic or MP so… why the need for a retired Guardsgt in the Army?

    Perhaps the man-power shortage is getting to the point that they’ll plug retired guardsmen in to holes in the regular army for riot control? Something just doesn’t sound right (mostly that the planned gov response involves calling up the regular Army, not the National Guard…) It just plain smells bad.

    You do recall Kent State, right?

    Your menu of options seems pretty broad: instigate riots… mb a couple IEDs or pipebombs to escalate things (heck even a few rocks from agents provocateur) and suddenly Duhmurkkah swoons over the Law n Order candidate, Sydney McBush II. I wouldn’t put it past the neocon warmongers to decap the entire Dem convention leadership and then blame it on the vegans (or mb Osama, er Obama?)

    I never heard of your skinhead friend until you brought him up. I certainly don’t support violent anarchy/’protests’ but you keep building these ridiculous strawmen (money quote from u: “I have no doubt the Glens will be the darlings of the lefty’s at Lies.com before the end of August.”) and then playing the hero while you knock them down. Are you really that mentally deficient? If so, I will back off of making fun of you if the problem is medical. Just let us know, ok? thx

  149. shcb Says:

    If you don’t understand my soldier friends situation, you’ll just have to reread the previous posts.

    I don’t know why what I have said about the Glens that is a strawman. Let me be clearer about your money quote. My experience with the Glens, and i have no personal experience, and the reason they will be the darlings of this site is they will cause a ruckus on the edge of the law or a bit over the edge, they will get arrested and badger a bunch of their supporters to get arrested and then claim the police somehow violated their rights. For instance if the law says the police can hold you for 24 hours they will complain if it take the police 12 to process a few hundred people. Judging how excited you guys get in these cases I’m guessing you will eat it up.

    Morris and Means have some credibility in the Indian rights area, Spanguolo is a city worker in Longmont, Colorado, he has no real stake in these causes. He runs the summer kids baseball program or something like that, he is no skin head, he isn’t a druggy to my knowledge. He just likes to stir things up. As I recall, when he got involved with the Ward Churchill thing, he wasn’t invited by Churchill, he just showed up at a press conference and inserted himself into the fray. Who knows, maybe he won’t be a factor, but if he is, you guys will take his side, guaranteed. I’ll be happy if you prove me wrong, but I don’t think you will. That’s not a strawman, that’s a challenge.

  150. enkidu Says:

    I’ll put you down for mentally deficient

  151. shcb Says:

    Perhaps, but correct non the less.

  152. enkidu Says:

    I’ll try to use small words from here on out when trying to communicate, errr, talk with you. I appreciate your honesty about your mental handicap. It explains a great deal about why you are such a wrong wing nut job.

  153. shcb Says:

    thanks, it’s difficult living in a big brain world for folks like me.

  154. enkidu Says:

    i googled “riots at denver convention” and now I know where you got the idea: Rush Dimbulb was “dreaming of riots in Denver”

    must be part of the Operation Chaos thing – is that what ‘the Army’ (your wwnj militia unit) is calling it too?
    what about the skunkworks fake protestors? will the police learn to change their boots before provoking riots? and avoid the glare of the omnipresent phonecams and video cameras… hard to deny you provoked something when you are caught on camera…

    but just keep pummeling those strawmen and waving the bloody shirt

  155. shcb Says:

    I don’t get the chance to listen to Rush much anymore but I imagine he got the information of plans to riot from the same place I did, quotes of threats (promises) of riots in the Rocky Mountain News and Denver Post from the future riot instigators, the Glens. I think the fake protestors were in a foreign country weren’t they?

  156. knarlyknight Says:

    Yea, some backwater nation called Quebec… but their overzealous police, La Sûreté du Québec, are just starting to learn such tricks from their neighbors to the south.

  157. shcb Says:

    :-)

  158. shcb Says:

    Quebec, I believe they are more French than American aren’t they? (socialistic)

  159. enkidu Says:

    no false flag operations ever for ‘merkuh…
    right

    ever hear of the Gulf of Tonkin incident?
    sinking of the Maine? 9/11? (that one is for knarly)

    holding your hand makes me feel unclean (the slime rubs off)
    at least it isn’t as bad as lefty – the slime that freak gives off is corrosive
    TV’s slime gives you ugly hallucinations

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