Huffington on the Media on Dead Mine Rescuers

I’ve been only half paying attention to the ongoing saga of the miners trapped in the Utah coal mine. Something about the “Little Boy” (or adult mine workers) “Trapped in a Well” (or a mine) storyline seems so clichéd, so tailor-made for shallow, breathless coverage by a growing crush of media, that I feel a personal duty to avoid the story, the same way I feel obligated to say “no” to any extended warranty while buying consumer electronics, just on general principle. Which is callous and insensitive, I realize; those miners and their families are going through a horrible ordeal, and any decent human, given half a chance, would (and should) feel powerful emotional sympathies. Which may just be another way of saying the same thing: in a context in which large corporations are mobilizing armies of bubbleheads and technicians and equipment to tap into my essential humanity for the purpose of selling soap (or whatever CNN is hawking during the commercial breaks from the mine coverage), cultivating my inner cynic becomes an act of justifiable (if regrettable) self defense.

I did have a moment when listening to NPR the other day when it occurred to me how the rescue effort has played out like a metaphorical version of the Iraq war: ill-equipped, ill-trained (if sincere) efforts in the early going (like the True Believer twenty-somethings who staffed the CPA in the early Iraq reconstruction effort); followed by people with some sense of what needed to be done, but without the required expertise to pull it off against a tight schedule (as when the initial rescue wells went astray and missed the miners’ presumed location); followed by repeated expensive-but-doomed efforts that amounted to too little, too late. And the whole time, we had the spectacle of those in power (generals and politicians in the case of Iraq, mine owner and Bush-appointed mining safety official in the case of the collapsed mine), posing for the cameras and apparently focused at least as much on maintaining a fiction that they bore no blame for the unfolding disaster as on actually living up to their obligations.

Sigh. And now the metaphor gets an extra layer, as we grapple with the sunk-cost fallacy: More are continuing to die as a result of the initial mistakes. Do we keep going as a tribute to the fallen? Or pull out and face the realization that they died in vain?

Anyway, I was interested by Arianna Huffington’s commentary on the media’s coverage of the affair: It Shouldn’t Have Taken the Deaths of Three Miners to Get the Media to Focus on Mine Safety.

So last night, suddenly, after the tragic second collapse at the Utah mine, there was a dramatic shift in the TV coverage of the story. All at once, faux folksy mining boss Bob Murray, who had been everywhere, was nowhere to be found (even sending in a junior executive to handle this morning’s press conference). In his place, at long last, were actual scientists, and experts on mine safety and the workings of the Mine Safety and Health Administration. Bush mine safety czar Richard “Recess Appointment” Stickler was also absent last night, and did not appear again until this morning’s press conference.

So many questions were finally being asked. Prompting one more: What took so long? Why did it take a tragic second collapse before the Murray and Strickler PR Show was finally replaced by actual journalism?

On the specific question she raises about the media, I think it’s just the latest in a long line of examples of how entertainment and business values are displacing journalistic ethics. Bloggers are gradually assuming the role of journalists. Which I realize is problematic in various ways, but it’s also just the reality of the situation.

169 Responses to “Huffington on the Media on Dead Mine Rescuers”

  1. leftbehind Says:

    I did have a moment while I was reading this, that I was reminded of a Stretch Armstrong action figure I had when I was five or six. A fellow can turn any discussion of anything into a discussion of anything else if he stretches his metaphors far enough, but its up to the reader to decide how elastic those metaphors really are.

    The idea that bloggers can be journalists is silly. Bloggers aren’t journalists, they’re editorialists. They’re guys who either a) read news stories and write their opinions on them ,which isn’t journalism or b) read other people’s blogs with which they are predisposed to agree and re-write the blog entries they like in their own words and provide a link to the original blog. That isn’t journalism either. Other than a few at the top of the blogger food chain, there are very few people writing blogs of any political stance who have the access to the sort of first-hand information that would allow them to write anything other than opinion, anyway. If we can’t trust Dan Rather, who at least has direct access to Washington and has actually interviewed the major players to get the story straight, how are we to trust whatever array of basically anonymous commentators, armed with nothing more than the morning newspaper and a gut feeling to keep us straight, no matter how intelligent, well-educated, or well-intentioned they may be?

    Bloggers are also partisans. Nobody ever started a political blog because they wanted to remain neutral. Nobody trusts a partisan, not in the real world, anyway. There’s too much partisanship in the media, already without compounding the problem with the further introduction of an anonymous internet where basically anyone can say anything he wants to utterly devoid of any editorial restraint. None of this is to insinuate that everyone (or anyone) who writes a blog is dishonest; its just saying that we are who we are, we calls ‘em like we sees them whether we really sees them with our own eyes or not and even honest people filled with that ol’ party zeal are far too eaten up with the cause to be trusted as impartial sources on any level.

  2. shcb Says:

    LB,
    I also tend to trust people who make their living at a given profession and have a lot to lose. If a blogger tells a bald face lie and is caught, who cares, he goes to his nine to five the next day and brings home a check at the end of the week. Whereas someone like Dan Rather throws a carrier away when he not only gets caught promoting forged documents, but continues to stand behind those documents even after they are found out.

    But I think there is problem with real journalists as well, part of it is that they are lazy, and part is the 24 hour news cycle. It is more important to get it first than to get it right. Some of the laziness comes from having a monopoly for so long, Bloggers, Fox, and talk radio have introduced a level of competition even if it is partisan that is helping there some. I am stuck with getting breaking news from CNN and Fox news because the pictures are still worth a thousand words. But I prefer to get in-depth analysis from talk radio and newspapers, then fact check them a little as best as I can. They have careers to lose if they get too much wrong.

  3. leftbehind Says:

    Yes, and as much as internet and radio talk sources present themselves as alternatives to TV news and print media, they are ultimately dependent upon traditional media for their content. Rush Limbaugh and Josh Marshall don’t break stories. They find stories in the newspaper or on TV to interpret for their audience. They may have valid arguments that the “mainstream media” is approaching a story incorrectly, giving it too much importance or too little, but, while this can be seen as a valuable auxiliary to traditional media, it hardly constitutes an alternative to it.

    The roots of the Talk Radio / Blogger axis are somewhat troubling, as well, in that so many radio talk guys, and bloggers, are people have started their shows or blogs, based on the idea that the mainstream media is too liberal or too conservative. This notion explicitly implies that it is the purpose and duty of the talkshow host or blogger to save the listener or reader from the other side’s lies and distortions. This is a crusader mentality, and hardly conducive to objective newsgathering.

    You bring up the 24 hour news cycle. The 24 hour news cycle is problematic because it is a very rare day when there is actually 24 hours worth of important news. Realistically, its a rare week that has seven days worth of important news stories.

    This is true, even in wartime. A friend and I were watching CNN just before the initial bombing of Iraq and, even with such an important event about to unfold, the network’s stretching to fit airtime was comical: “Will the US bomb Iraq? Here is an expert who says the US will bomb Iraq. Here is an expert who says we won’t bomb Iraq. Stay tuned for a panel discussion among several experts, some who believe the US will bomb Iraq, while others disagree. Charles Von So and So is a noted historian, best known for his books on Aaron Burr and Abraham Lincoln. We’ll get his opinion on whetther or not the US will bomb Iraq in a moment, but first, Bill Bennett…”

  4. ymatt Says:

    Interesting points all around. If you’ll pardon my selective quoting:

    leftbehind:

    The idea that bloggers can be journalists is silly. Bloggers aren’t journalists, they’re editorialists.

    … as much as internet and radio talk sources present themselves as alternatives to TV news and print media, they are ultimately dependent upon traditional media for their content.

    The 24 hour news cycle is problematic because it is a very rare day when there is actually 24 hours worth of important news.

    shcb:

    I also tend to trust people who make their living at a given profession and have a lot to lose.

    But I think there is problem with real journalists as well … It is more important to get it first than to get it right.

    I think all of these statements together get to the bottom of what’s changing about the media. I’ll just add this: I believe what is fundamentally missing is in-depth reporting, which is currently often confused with in-depth analysis.

    It’s absolutely true that bloggers and talk radio hosts and other editorialists are not reporters. But too much news I think has become simply reporting the event and it’s immediate consequences. And I think this is where the 24-hour news cycle comes in. I’ll modify leftbehind’s statement about there being not enough important news to fill 24 hours and say that there are only just enough important events in 24 hours to fill a 20-minute (or so) news loop.

    News reporting is a business, and the free market has optimized that loop (or in the case of the internet, a page of news links) to be the size of news chunk that best fits the demand. The 24-hour news feed isn’t a long sequence of different news stories — it’s a regular repetition and evolution of that news loop, so that anybody tuning it will get the latest version of top event reporting within the time available.

    The really unfortunate thing is that when news reporting is so optimized around that chunk size, theres no time for fact-checking, for reporting on a news-makers’ history, for putting events in the context of relevant facts and other stories. This makes the news is easier to game (by making statements that nobody will have time to debunk), and tends to favor stories that can be completely covered within the least time (human interest, celebrity news, political talking points, violent acts etc). So for those of us who very basically want more depth and are willing to spend the time on it, the only thing that can fill the demand is editorialism, so we listen to talk radio and write lengthy posts on political blogs, scraping for facts to back up our opinions and intuitions.

    So what’s the solution? There probably isn’t one. Although pulp reporting has always been with us, there was a time when reporters were more inclined to push the meaty, harder-to-tell stories because it was the Right Thing to Do. And really, I think there are a lot of these people still working at the newspapers, where the format is more friendly to in-depth reporting; we’ve mostly gotten what we’ve collectively asked for in TV coverage (and this is why I never watch TV news in large part).

    It’s just sad that the TV news loop seems to set the agenda, and too much in-depth news reporting is dismissed as editorialism (and vice versa).
    To take one example, I think it’s a real shame that al Jazeera has been cast as anti-American propaganda, when it really does seem to merely be reporting news that’s close to home that happens to be unflattering to the interests of people in power.

  5. shcb Says:

    to borrow the tag line of my favorite liberal pundit, Linda Ellerbee, “and so it goes”

  6. leftbehind Says:

    Good points, YMatt, and you’re a good man to point out the essential difference between reporting and analysis. I think that’s at the heart of what all three of us are trying to get at here.

  7. knarlyknight Says:

    I’ve got no objection to anything said on this thread, great analysis all around. To be added, perhaps, is how much of “news” is pushed forward to help fulfill some agenda (and whether any stories repressed.) This refers to a wider scope than the 9/11 blackout/hit pieces (if any journalist dared write a balanced article pointing out the flaws in the official conspiracy theory they can be assured it would not make it past their editor’s desk.) Who owns the media, are their interests in general and overall served by the stories that are run? Absolutely. Are the injustices of the world that our press reports upon “of interest” on their own merits (rarely) or because the reporting of them serves a military, political and corporate purpose (almost always.) Does anyone have a good idea about how much the CIA spends (never mind the present government administration) on ensuring “the news” goes in the general direction that they want?

  8. shcb Says:

    Well, so much for a civil discourse, let’s do it again sometime guys.

    Knarly,

    You are an idiot, I don’t mean to insult you, I am using that term in the clinical sense. You are certainly well read on the subject so you are not ignorant of what happened on 911, you seem a smart enough guy, capable of making rational decisions, so you are not stupid, that only leaves an idiot.

    In America we have the first amendment that protects the press and individuals from congress passing laws abridging free speech, this amendment of course is not absolute, none of them are. This amendment only gives you the right to speak freely, it doesn’t give you the right to be heard. News agencies are private endeavors, they are under no obligation to publish your hogwash, and they certainly are under no obligation to publish your hogwash until every man woman and child is brainwashed into believing it. Besides, your nonsense has been published, it has been discussed by Rosie on primetime, movies have been made, articles have been written and published. Everyone has seen, few have bought. Now you can be a true believer, and as far as I can see you can write about it to your little heart’s content here and other blogs, climb the fence of the White House and yell at the top of your lungs and you may even get to profess your beliefs on national TV. But guess what, we don’t have to listen.

    Sorry guys, but it needed to be said.

  9. NorthernLite Says:

    I think more and more people are tuning into news stations because they are telling them what they want to hear, not necessarily what the real story is. I think that is especially true for talk radio. And I totally agree that “in-depth analysis” is becoming blurred with “in-depth reporting”.

  10. jbc Says:

    I’ve been thinking some lately about the way the Internet (in particular, though talk radio and cable tv and the trend away from real journalism in which subject-matter experts do in-depth investigating and reporting are all part of the picture, too) has made it easier for people who are inclined, for whatever reason, to favor a particular interpretation of reality to convince themselves that that version is correct.

    Basically, if your personal “scientific method” is more about seeking out confirming data, rather than disconfirming data, the ease and efficiency that the net brings to the creation and distribution of information (and the intentional elimination of intermediate filters via the net’s “dumb in the middle” design) means you will be able to succeed spectacularly in that effort.

    In a way, it’s analogous to the way the steam engine magnified human muscle power, or the way the internal combustion engine and the highway system magnified humans’ ability to move themselves from one place to another. Except in this case what got magnified was our sensory abilities, our ability to use our eyes and ears to gather information about the world and integrate it with our mental models of what’s happening out there. Our perceptions, basically.

    Obviously, this process has been going on for a long time; there were newspapers and telegraphs and radios and televisions, and all of them have had an impact on human perception. But the Internet has, I think, carried us past a certain threshhold that makes this effect especially powerful. These days, a person can take a suspicion and amplify it into a full-blown conspiracy theory, amassing data and coordinating with fellow conspirators from all over the globe, building what looks to that person like an overwhelming case in practically no time at all.

    Of course, this isn’t all about people deluding themselves. The same forces also make it easier to quickly identify and amplify accurate perceptions. The technology itself is “truth neutral”; you can find whatever it is you’re looking for. It’s up to you to decide what you’re going to look for, and the seductive nature of confirmation bias means that for a lot of people, what they end up looking for is confirmation of their pre-existing beliefs.

    I think I’m going to write up a longer version of this idea and post it on the site under the title, “The Perception Engine”. I’m interested in what you all think about the idea.

  11. shcb Says:

    JBC,

    Sounds fun, the thing that I wonder is does it matter? But I will wait to discuss that on your next post.

  12. knarlyknight Says:

    jbc – Sounds valid. “Seductive nature of confirmation bias” is clever, the concept is something I have been mindful of in trying to be objective when examining the flip side of articles by certain “out there” bloggers. Most importantly, that concept fits like a glove with the stated principles of Operation Mockingbird.

    I would strongly suggest familiarizing yourself if you are not already with that program.

    shcb – I liked your post, basically you are asserting your right to remain ignorant, and I guess we’ll have to respect that. Further, your continued name calling and vociferous angry opinions in response to what are basically questions in my previous post simply puts a spotlight that you have a deep fear to consider the uncomfortable. “Cognitive dissonance” is the clinical term for you.

    shcb, if you had written that post for a 9th grade civics class, you would probably get a C+ or even better, as it reflects well the principles one would find in a textbook. It does not reflect what is seen in the real world, where yes you do see all kinds of diverse points of view but dissenting voices are placed on page 13 or ridiculed not on their merits or lack thereof but rather they are ridiculed for their divergence from the well – groomed common perception.

    For example, where were all the dissenting voices in the lead up to the Iraq war? Answer: they were almost totally buried in the American press. That is the observation. Go find your own theory, but in so doing you will need to research the available evidence:

    Consolidation of major media

    Ownership of major media (subsidiaries of companies that make what???)

    Stated objectives of CIA and societal “leaders”
    (a) historical context of societal manipulations
    (b) operation mockingbird
    (c) subsequent activities

    Opinions of independent experts (i.e. try to avoid the Fox News shills)

    There are tons and tons of examples that support the opinion of a less than completely free press. For example:

    “Many Americans still insist or persist in believing that we have a free press, while getting most of their news from state-controlled television, under the misconception that reporters are meant to serve the public. Reporters are paid employees and serve the media owners, who usually cower when challenged by advertisers or major government figures. Robert Parry reported the first breaking stories about Iran-Contra for Associated Press that were largely ignored by the press and congress, then moving to Newsweek he witnessed a retraction of a true story for political reasons. In ‘Fooling America: A Talk by Robert Parry’ he said, “The people who succeeded and did well were those who didn’t stand up, who didn’t write the big stories, who looked the other way when history was happening in front of them, and went along either consciously or just by cowardice with the deception of the American people.”

    Also, recall this:

    “The CIA owns everyone of any significance in the major media.” –Former CIA Director William Colby

  13. leftbehind Says:

    The press has always been accused of trying to hide dissent against the Iraq War. If that was their aim, they have done a spectacularly poor job of doing so. The dissent against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have been among the most well-documented protest movements in American history. Was there a single college student who marched anywhere in the world who wasn’t on CNN for at least 30 seconds? Has there been a single celebrity who has garnered less attention by dissenting against either war? How many mothers of dead servicemen have become famous in their passionate support of the war?

    If you have a moment, take out a piece of notebook paper and fold it down the middle. On one side of the fold, write the names of well-known people (i.e. people who are well-known to the average person, who only watches ABC, NBC and CBS) who are not traditional political pundits but are known for their outspoken views against the Iraq War. On the other side of the fold, make a similar list, only with well-known people who are known for their outspoken support of the war. The list of well-publicized dissenters will certainly outgrow the other.

    There is a good argument, however, that while the media wasn’t hiding dissent, it was sabotaging the cause a bit by promoting the wrong face of dissent. There were certainly better, more credible voices against the War than Eminem, the Dixie Chicks and Jeanine Garafolo, but media’s emphasis on celebrity tended to crowd intelligent dissent out of the picture in favor of more flashy celebrity commentators. I’m not sure how far Steve Earle got in school, but he dissects world affairs as if he never got past the 6th grade. Couldn’t the media have found someone more intelligent to present an educated commentary on the Afghan War? How many serious students of history and politics were never even heard as Sean Penn giggled to himself about WMDs at the Oscars? I’m no great fan of Noam Chomsky, but shouldn’t he get more airtime than Rosi O’Donell for chrissakes?

  14. knarlyknight Says:

    In response to “leftbehind Says:
    August 23rd, 2007 at 10:34 am”

    Was there a single college student who marched anywhere in the world who wasn’t on CNN for at least 30 seconds?

    Yes, in fact very, very few were. Further, that coverage was microscopic relative to the overwhelming pro-war commentaries.

    Has there been a single celebrity who has garnered less attention by dissenting against either war?

    Yes. Celebrities who dissented against the war in 2002/03 were marginalized. Ed Asner might be a good example.

    How many mothers of dead servicemen have become famous in their passionate support of the war?

    that’s a pretty despicable question even for you to be asking Leftbehind. anyway, seems the president mentioned one or two in many speeches, so they are not ignored.

    If you have a moment, take out a piece of notebook paper and fold it down the middle. On one side of the fold, write the names of well-known people (i.e. people who are well-known to the average person, who only watches ABC, NBC and CBS) who are not traditional political pundits but are known for their outspoken views against the Iraq War. On the other side of the fold, make a similar list, only with well-known people who are known for their outspoken support of the war. The list of well-publicized dissenters will certainly outgrow the other.

    Nice try, sneaky. People are more likely to remember the people who display remarkable courage by being outspoken critics of the military industrial media complex war machine, while those who sing with the choir are unlikely to be remembered. You might benefit from taking some time to learn about sampling techniques and statistics.

    There is a good argument, however, that while the media wasn’t hiding dissent, it was sabotaging the cause a bit by promoting the wrong face of dissent.

    a bit ???

    Couldn’t the media have found someone more intelligent to present an educated commentary on the Afghan War?

    It was not a matter of finding, it was CHOOSING those people deliberatly

    How many serious students of history and politics were never even heard as Sean Penn giggled to himself about WMDs at the Oscars? thousands

    I’m no great fan of Noam Chomsky, but shouldn’t he get more airtime than Rosi O’Donell for chrissakes?

    No. It does not make any difference as long as the level of debate amounts to basically misquoting people and then calling people names. Rosi is much more susceptible to insults about appearance and lifestyle than is Noam.

  15. leftbehind Says:

    Knarly – What? Alex Jones didn’t have a protestors on his show? It was probably because they were being interviewed everywhere else. You and I can both agree that the media didn’t handle the protest movement as it should have, but it was hardly ignored.

    How was Ed Asner marginalized? Was he passed over for Brad Pitt’s role in “Troy” or something because of his antiwar stance? How were the Dixie Chicks marginalized by their anti-war views? They probably have twice the fan base they had before the war, have won a grammy and are the subjects of a sympathetic documentary. Steve Earle was a cult figure before he wrote “John Walker’s Blues -” now he’s the subject of a serious biography and a documentary of his own. Every entertainer should be so marginalized. Sean Penn’s won an Oscar since he spoke out, and how, exactly, has Jennifer Aniston’s career been impacted by her “fuck Bush” statements?

    Yes, people are more likely to remember people who are outspoken critics of war, particularly if there are a lot of them, they are very vocal, well known and you see them a lot.

    A despicable question? There are no despicable questions – only despicable people who won’t answer them (and I think I asked you a question you never found your way towards answering on the “Admiration and Envy” thread, while we’re on the subject. Suffing Sucatash!)

    And yes, I realize that Noam Chomsky is probably one of the Shadow Police or something, but I’d still consider him more of a go-to guy on the Iraq War than Rosie O’Donell, and can’t imagine why you would feel differently.

  16. leftbehind Says:

    Make that Suffering Sucatash!

  17. leftbehind Says:

    Another question you probably won’t answer is this (and it’s an honest one): when you talk about the “overwhelming pro-war commentaries” from the pre-war media, who are we talking about? If we eliminate all the cronies, all the partisans such as Rush Limbaugh, Michael Medved, Hugh Hewitt, Sean Hannety and the Fox News crowd, was the media really all that unified behind the War in Iraq? Was the New York Times for the war? Was the L.A. Times? Were CBS, ABC, NBC all presenting a unified front in favor of war? Were most of the nation’s major newspapers? Was CNN? C-Span? Was MSNBC unilaterally pro-war back then, which was a while before they started aping Fox?

    I’m not trying to say that there was no pro-war faction in the media, nor am I trying to advance that old saw about the Liberal Media Agenda. I’m simply saying that, as I remember it, a debate did take place, whether it was flawed or not. I honestly don’t believe there has ever been a shortage of anti-war voices in what we would call here the mainstream media, whether or not they were the right ones.

    I should probably ask someone other than Knarly, since I would really like a serious answer to this question. Guys?

  18. shcb Says:

    Here in Denver we are blessed with two newspapers for as small a city as we are, they combined a few years ago but still maintain some independence. The Post is left center, the news is right center, the Post moved slightly more left a few years ago when they hired a Managing Editor (I think that is his title) from the Boston Globe. There were articles pro and con in both papers, of course more pro in the News and more against in the Post. Bias plus bias equals balance. Even Fox News had people that argued both sides of the issue, you mentioned Sean Hanity, remember Allen Combs? He’s there arguing the opposing view every night. What Knarly fails to realize is that having the right to speak doesn’t mean others have the obligation to listen, and if they do listen, they have no obligation to agree. Unless everyone believes as he does, SOMEONE in the press is being silenced, because if the news was getting out, surely everyone would agree with him. I think we should be attacking Iran as we speak, but because Katie isn’t telling her few remaining listeners that we should be attacking Iran doesn’t mean there is a left wing shadow government run by Nancy P that is giving Katie marching orders, The Perky One just doesn’t agree with me, most Americans and almost all the rest of the world doesn’t agree with me on this one, I can live with that. Hell, I’m probably wrong.

    The Dixie Chicks is a great case study. Early in their career they had a small but loyal fan base because they are incredibly talented, they wanted to go big time so they signed on with Sony, who sent them to superstardom, the place they wanted to go. When they got there they didn’t like being a “pop” group and they didn’t like to be told what to wear and what to sing, so they reneged on their contract so they could get “back to their roots”, the traditional country western crowd. This is a very patriotic crowd, the girls said what they said, their audience exercised their right not to buy records, the radio stations exercised their rights not to play the songs, and congress passed no laws abridging them of their right to free speech. And speak they did, they didn’t apologize to their fans, they screamed their protests on the morning shows, they did a semi nude cover with anti-American slogans painted on their bodies, and still the country western crowd didn’t buy their records or go to their concerts, shocking. So who loves them now? The “pop” crowd, only problem, the pop crowd doesn’t like country music. But somehow they are the victims.

  19. knarlyknight Says:

    In response to “leftbehind Says:
    August 25th, 2007 at 7:40 pm”
    Knarly – What? Alex Jones didn’t have a protestors on his show?
    don’t know, I’ve never watched his show.

    How was Ed Asner marginalized? Was he passed over for Brad Pitt’s role in “Troy” or something because of his antiwar stance?
    got me there, I have no idea. I can’t tell what might have been. (stop with the asner/troy/pitt visuals already will ya?)

    How were the Dixie Chicks marginalized by their anti-war views?
    they lost much exposure, e.g. were not played on radio for a long time. yes their fan base might have grown in correlation with anti-war sentiment, but I would bet beer that there was very little if any cause-and-effect relationship there.

    They probably have twice the fan base they had before the war, have won a grammy and are the subjects of a sympathetic documentary.
    So, you say “A” then “B” therefore “A” caused “B”? More rwnj Big Bogus Logic from Lefty. Documentary? I never heard of the documentary, can’t be that big a deal – except maybe for the people who were already fans (sounds like you.)

    Steve Earle was a cult figure before he wrote “John Walker’s Blues -” now he’s the subject of a serious biography and a documentary of his own.
    (when did he write that?) Steve Earle was far, far from being an obscure cult figure in 2003.

    Sean Penn’s won an Oscar since he spoke out,
    Perhaps Sean is the exception that proves the rule, he has been a remarkable spokesperson (not necessarily a good one) (see Hurricane Katrina involvement)

    and how, exactly, has Jennifer Aniston’s career been impacted by her “fuck Bush” statements?

    Such a fair question (not)! So let me answer thus: she was passed over as the new “Cover Girl” model, turned away from a leading Broadway role, Prince Harry refused to return her phone calls until she recanted her politics, and Demi Moore turned down a lesbian scene with her out of pure spite for her comment. So “and how, exactly,” are you going to prove any of that false or prove your rwnj buddies little tiny brained pet theory that her career was aided by her political stance?

    Yes, people are more likely to remember people who are outspoken critics of war, particularly if there are a lot of them, they are very vocal, well known and you see them a lot.
    You are very wise, and good looking too.

    A despicable question? There are no despicable questions – only despicable people who won’t answer them
    okay, i’ll give you that for now without prejudice as I reserve the right to disagree; but I do not understand the relevance of your question “How many mothers of dead servicemen have become famous in their passionate support of the war?” Let’s see, a mother loses her child in a war she finds that she can not (did not or can no-longer) support, speaks out about that and in so doing she gains notoriety. So, explain to me what exactly is the point of your question?

    (and I think I asked you a question you never found your way towards answering on the “Admiration and Envy” thread, while we’re on the subject. Suffing Sucatash!)
    I’ll see if I can find it and respond if it is not another stupid question about Alex or InfoWars (which have some great stuff and some horrible stuff, for those with intelligence enough to DISCERN the difference (apparently not you from your comments on the “Admiration and Envy” thread. I haven’t looked at that thread for a while (will do so now) but most of your questions were leaning toward the ridiculous rhetorical (i.e. you and your rwnj’s have a pet answer from your Republican party speaking notes memo sheet while everyone else has a better answer encompasses far more knowledge than will ever fit into your red state.)

    And yes, I realize that Noam Chomsky is probably one of the Shadow Police or something, but I’d still consider him more of a go-to guy on the Iraq War than Rosie O’Donell, and can’t imagine why you would feel differently.
    Very insightful of you about the “shadow police”, I’ve heard mention of a “left wing gatekeeper” role but reserve judgement until (if ever) I can digest the info from both sides of that debate; …you imagined far more in my response than what I had said. All I said was that Rosie was misquoted (lots.) But I took my eye off the ball (ball=Rosi’s objections to the Iraq war) and was looking at the bat (bat=Rosi’s questions about 911). So to explain, I was referring to that fact that Rosi was presented as saying outright that “911 was an inside job” when at the time she did not say that. All she was saying was that WTC7 fell at (near?) freefall speed, symmetrically, into its footprint, in a manner heretofore never seen from anything but controlled demolition, and how was that possible? It was a question. The overwhelming rwnj media response to that was to spew frothing at the mouth comments on to the airwaves that she was stupid, irresponsible, fat, etc. which may or may not be true, but they do nothing to address the fact that her questions (not statements at the time of the debate, but questions based on observations of a building falling (as a picture perfect controlled demolition) which were basically true. WTC7 fell just like a controlled demolition. But I digress to talk apples when the subject is oranges, my bad and me apologize.

    Regarding “leftbehind Says:
    August 25th, 2007 at 7:55 pm”

    I honestly don’t believe there has ever been a shortage of anti-war voices in what we would call here the mainstream media, whether or not they were the right ones.
    I should probably ask someone other than Knarly, since I would really like a serious answer to this question. Guys?
    You’re kidding, right? RIGHT??? Why don’t you ask shcb, he’ll give you a “fair and balanced” answer (not)

    By the way, do you think you will ever get the real America back, or has it been lost thusly (per Boston Legal clip):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P682rGIhZwI

  20. shcb Says:

    Knarly,

    I won’t give a fair and balanced answer, I’m an advocate just like you. I give my side, you give yours, balance. Toby Keith writes songs with a pro American slant, he is a hero with his target audience. The Chicks take an anti-American stance, they have to go find a new audience, balance. Do you think maybe the whole Brad, Angie, Jen thing may have had something to do with her not getting the Cover Girl gig? While many companies would like to capitalize on the notoriety of a situation like this three way love affair, the Cover Girl position is somewhat long term, there is a possibility of nasty event happening with those 3, maybe Cover Girl didn’t think it was worth the risk. Personally, I didn’t realize she had made statements against the war, maybe I remember a little something about it, but no more so than any other star. She hasn’t sustained it like Penn, The Chicks, or Clooney has she?

    I always think it is funny that the boycott of “big oil” or a company that produces toy guns or god knows what else is a great and noble cause with liberals, but let a bunch of red necks decide not to purchase records from two cute and one rich fat chick and it is a crisis that threatens the American way of life.

  21. leftbehind Says:

    If you don’t know that Ed Asner was “marginalized” for his views, you shouldn’t have asserted so strongly that he was. That’s disingenuous and dumb.

    As for the Dixie Chicks, they were dropped from country stations, just about the time they were starting to re-tool their image to cross over into the pop market, anyway. Their records were still played as much on pop stations after their comments on Bush, perhaps more as the group became a symbol of dissent in the face of attempted censorship. Clearly, the group became higher-profile in the non-country music press after their comments. “Taking The Long Way,” the first album the group released after the controversy, sold 526,000 copies in its first week, which made it the number one album on the Billboard 200 right out of the starting gate. The album would go on to win a Grammy. Make whatever cause-and-effect assumptions you feel like, I’m simply saying that the Chicks were hardly the victims of an effective media black out.

    The documentary on the Dixie Chicks is called “Shut Up and Sing,” it’s no “Terrorstorm” but a lot more people have heard of it, and its actually a documentary.

    When compared to the commercial success of the Dixie Chicks, Steve Earle’s cult status is even more apparent. How much Steve Earle have you ever heard on country radio, even before “John Walker’s Blues?” In 2003, Steve Earle had not entered a single on the Billboard Charts in 13 years.

    How can Sean Penn be a remarkable spokeman if he’s not a good one?

    I never said Jennifer Aniston’s career was helped by her “fuck Bush statements.” I simply hold that it hasn’t hurt her. She’s still as high profile and popular as she ever has been. Courtney Cox won’t make out with me, either, and I supported the War.

    You’re absolutely correct when you call me wise, but I would be more flattered by your characterization of me as “good looking” if you had ever actually seen me. Granted, I come across well in conversations like this, and my naturally bubbly personality might lead you to believe I’m cuter than I actually am, but my ears stick out a bit and my hair is thinning. Thanks anyway – that was a really sweet thing to say.

    By asking my question regarding military mothers, I was drawing attention to Cindy Sheehan, who was not a media figure before the war, but who has since become a well-recognized public figure, political candidate and lightning rod for political dissent. Were the media making a concerted attempt to hide anti-war protests and marginalize anti-war sentiment, as you suggest they have, Cindy Sheehan is the last person they would have put on television, especially at the time she was at her highest profile. How does it help corporate media sweep dissent under the rug to give airtime to a grieving mother who is outspoken, well-spoken, and has become a physical rallying point for the protest movement?

    My question on the “Admiration and Envy” thread is not really about the content on “Infowars,” as it is a question regarding your reading comprehension/retention. I find it odd that you can spend as much time as you do on a site that is primarily concerned with the workings of what Alex Jones calls “The Illuminati” and have, by your own admission, never heard of the Illuminati. That’s like reading “Roots” and never realizing Kunta Kintay was black. If you’d said “yes, I’ve read what Alex Jones has to say on the Illuminati, but I think it’s foolish,” I’d understand, and move on. But for you to say that you’ve never even encountered the concept after pouring over Infowars as much as you have suggests a profound inability to read a piece of information and understand what is being said. This has a direct bearing on your credibility here – how are we to take anything you post here on face value if we can’t say for certain whether or not you’ve actually been able to read and understand either your source material, or anything we have written. The fact that you have used the term “Illuminati” yourself on this very blog, is puzzling as well.

    I’m glad my “Shadow Police” comment was so “insightful,” but I was kidding, and have no idea what you are trying to say. “Left wing gatekeeper?” Isn’t that who Rick Moranis was looking for in Ghostbusters?

    Whatever Rosie said or didn’t say, and whatever the rightwing reaction to it, my assertion that she is a poor spokeswoman for any point of view still stands.

  22. leftbehind Says:

    And no, I wasn’t kidding. I really would like a serious answer to my question and, no, I don’t think you’re capable of giving one.

  23. knarlyknight Says:

    leftbehind, my answers to your questions on the Admiration and Envy thread were provided at 12:52 am August 26th, or a full 6 hours before your insulting, stupid, and stupendously inaccurate speculations in your previous two posts above.

  24. knarlyknight Says:

    re: Ed Asner – The point all along was that it was “disingenuous and dumb” for you to suggest that people speaking out about the war enhanced their careers by doing so. There is no way to legitimately prove that inane assertion, or to disprove it. So I simply reflected your own argument back at you by saying that Asner suffered, and your response was that your own reflection was “disingenuous and dumb”. In any event, this might be of interest to Asner fans (which by now probably excludes all rwnj’s?)

    www rense com/general70/asner.htm

    re: Sean Penn – “remarkable“ was a poor choice of word, replace it with “notable“.

    re: Cindy Sheehan – I suggest we agree to disagree here. My impression is that initially giving her exposure was like walking a lamb up to for a slow slaughter – almost like a sacrifice to Molech (a joke). The safe bet in the early Cindy days was that this average housewife would implode, self-destruct or shrivel up and vanish like any ordinary person subjected to the overwhelming onslaught of the pro-war proponents. That turned out to be a bad bet by the media execs. In an extraordinary way Sheehan faced the onslaught and overcame the extreme scrutiny and ultra harsh criticisms from all you pro-war rwnj’s on the street and on radio and tv. But I do not think she was victorious or even half as effective as she could have been on a level playing field, because the media execs still had control of the manner in which she was presented in the major broadcasts. Sheehan was often presented in a confusing context and then was usually sandwiched between very politically correct looking pro-war speakers in a far clearer context, in more sedate surroundings presenting pro-war messages. I may be wrong, but that was my observation. This is all a moot discussion now anyway, isn’t it?

  25. knarlyknight Says:

    Lefty,
    re: Illuminati – again, my answers to your questions on the Admiration and Envy thread were provided at 12:52 am August 26th, or a full 6 hours before your insulting and inaccurate speculations in your previous two posts above. However, you might want to consider that the people described in the links do meet, officially, on a regular schedule; then ask yourself whether it is reasonable to assume that during the course of these official gatherings there might be instances where people with related interests or goals might discuss those matters as they relate to moving forward into the future. That sounds reasonable to me, but evil? Naaaah. You’d have to have some actual real first hand exposure to those people to make that judgement.
    http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Grove
    http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group

    re: Left wing gatekeeper – not trying to say anything about that, thought that you were. This does not interest me.

    re: Rosi – yea, whatever.

  26. leftbehind Says:

    re: re: Ed Asner – If this answer made any less sense, you’d be that bald guy in “The Princess Bride.”

    re:re: Sean Penn – I agree. “Remarkable” was a poor choice of words.

    re:re: Cindy Sheehan – Isn’t Moloch a figure of some importance to the Illuminati? I know Alex Jones discusses Moloch at some length, and William Cooper connected the worship of Moloch to the Mystery Religion on his “Hour of the Time” broadcasts. Any thoughts on this?

  27. enkidu Says:

    I wish I had more time to take apart rwnj comments, but knarly seems to be doing a decent job of it. Often feels like we are speaking completely different languages. (see post “Churchill, his arms wide”)

    But just to mix things up, I will use a universal language to expose what is a pretty obvious lie. This ‘universal language’ is of course mathematics. In another post the rwnj crowd was saying something about how the highway of death wasn’t so deadly after all, Iraqi civilian casualties exaggerated for political gain etc. Yet in this same thread there were claims of 300 to 600 Iraqis killed and 1400 to 2000 vehicles. These two numbers just don’t add up. Let us say we think 500 Iraqis were killed. And 1500 vehicles… see where I am going with this? Each driver would have had to be towing two other vehicles. Does each bad guy Iraqi nasty drive until his ride gets gibbed, then run back and grab another? A typical military truck holds more than one bad guy typically. just sayin…

    The answer is that rwnjs already have their answer: it is Whatever Supreme Leader Says It Is! (duh!)

    You may now return to bickering about Ed Asner ;-)

  28. enkidu Says:

    o and please read this:

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/16076312/the_great_iraq_swindle

  29. leftbehind Says:

    That would be utterly fascinating if it had anything to do with the conversation at hand.

  30. leftbehind Says:

    And while we’re on the subject of you being an asshole, quit trying to kiss Knarly’s ass. He read your dismissive comments regarding his “sooper dooper conspiracy theory,” and he knows what a shitty friend you really are.

  31. leftbehind Says:

    Back to the subject at hand: Knarly – Isn’t Moloch the object of worship at Bohemian Grove? Wasn’t Moloch once worshipped by the Jews and how might that figure into 9-11?

  32. enkidu Says:

    OK, so you want to discuss famous folks and how support for Fuhrerous George’s Really Bad Idea helped or hurt their career?

    How about Ted Nugent? (and can I just say it up front here: fucking typical)

    Facing a draft, Nugent bravely wet his pants

    Rocker is all talk as he calls Obama, Hillary vile names

    August 27, 2007
    BY RICHARD ROEPER Sun-Times Columnist
    So Ted Nugent roams a concert stage while toting automatic weapons, calls Barack Obama “a piece of —–” and says he told Obama to suck on one of his machine-guns. He also calls Hillary Clinton a “worthless bitch” and Dianne Feinstein a “worthless whore.”

    That Nugent, he’s a man’s man. He talks the talk and walks the walk, right?

    Except when it was time to register for the draft during the Vietnam era. By his own admission, Nugent stopped all forms of personal hygiene for a month and showed up for his draft board physical in pants caked with his own urine and feces, winning a deferment. Creative!

    Ah, but that was a long time ago. Nugent isn’t just a washed-up rocker — he’s a right-wing madman who’s not afraid to call out some of the leading Democrats in language so vile it makes the Dixie Chick Natalie Maines’ comments about President Bush sound like a love poem.

    You’d think even someone such as Sean Hannity would dismiss Nugent as a macho clown, desperate for attention.

    Yeah, right.

    In a discussion on his show last week, Hannity refused to condemn Nugent’s remarks, saying, “I like Ted Nugent . . . he’s a friend of mine,” and even laughing loudly as Alan Colmes read the transcript of some of Nugent’s remarks.

    Funny. I don’t remember Hannity being so cavalier about the Dixie Chicks went they criticized Bush.

    Not that he’s operating under a double standard or anything.”

    so
    Let us recap: the Dixie Chicks had one of their number say they were ashamed the pretzelnitwit was from Texas and the reichwing mob went nuts.

    Ted Nugent crapped his pants to get outta Vietnam, but he is a reichwing hero (and gun loving über nutcase, borderline psycho).

    Typical.

    You sure you don’t want to babble on about Ed Asner?

  33. leftbehind Says:

    Oh, Iky…Count on you to turn a serious discussion into a name-calling contest. I wish you would introduce me to guy who lets you fly airplanes? I want to suck his dick, too.

  34. enkidu Says:

    you start off with I’m an “asshole” and “shitty” then bemoan the tone?
    oooookkkaaaaaayyyyy
    Whatever you say Senator…

    “Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) was arrested in June at a Minnesota airport by a plainclothes police officer investigating lewd conduct complaints in a men’s public restroom, according to an arrest report obtained by Roll Call Monday afternoon.

    Craig’s arrest occurred just after noon on June 11 at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. On Aug. 8, he pleaded guilty to misdemeanor disorderly conduct in the Hennepin County District Court. He paid more than $500 in fines and fees, and a 10-day jail sentence was stayed. He also was given one year of probation with the court that began on Aug. 8.”

    Are ALL Rethuggles™®© closet gay hypocrits?

  35. leftbehind Says:

    C’mon, Inky-doo-doo, even you can come up with better than Ted Nugent – he’s an easy mark. Even I called him out as a jackass years ago, on this blog, back when JBC posted about Steve Earle and “John Walker’s Blues.” Your post says a lot more about you being a pussy and going after obvious targets that it has any bearing on anything I’ve posted on this thread.

  36. leftbehind Says:

    I only use “asshole” because I believe in using clinical terms.
    I’ve already declared myself openly gay on this blog a long time ago – do you have a problem with that, you social conservative bastard? Just because Jerry Falwell’s dead you think you can take his place? I’m black, too – you got a problem with that?

    Are all Liberals homophobic cheesedicks, or just you?

  37. leftbehind Says:

    What’s the matter, Anita Bryant? Cat got your tongue?

  38. leftbehind Says:

    Why don’t you climb down out of the Florida Sunshine Tree and say something?

  39. shcb Says:

    enkidu,

    Maybe the Iraqi’s left their vehicles and ran, 1500 vehicles, 1500 Iraqi’s, trucks and tanks start to explode in front of and behind, 1000 Iraqi’s run like hell to the nearest sand dune, 500 dead. That’s what I would have done.

    The Washing Post said 200-300, the article I was citing said a more accurate Minimum was 800-1000, with 6000-8000 being unrealistic and 10,000 or tens of thousands being absurd with an estimated 1800 vehicles between the two areas of attack

  40. leftbehind Says:

    I think he had to go to a Promise Keepers meeting, or something.

  41. leftbehind Says:

    See. I wouldn’t ordinarily get so mad about this, but’s just the principle of the thing. I mean here’s a guy who goes on and on about what a Liberal he is, and how right wingers are so full of hate, yet every time he wants to really insult the Republican Party, or whoever he figures to be his adversary at the moment, he throws up some example of a homosexual Republican – as if there is something immoral, insulting or comical about the very nature of homosexuality. “Not only is Larry Craig one of those stupid rethuglicans, but he’s also a QUEER!!!” This began around the time I mentioned, in one of my posts, that I am a gay man, and there are numerous examples of it on this blog.

    I know, he’ll try to make some sad argument that he really isn’t condemning homosexuality he’s merely pointing out Republican hypocrisy by outing gays within a political party that condemns gays itself. This is a bogus argument. How is he exposing any hypocrasy other than his own when he implies, just as the Moral Majority or the Promise Keepers or any of Enk’s fellow homophobes imply, that people like Larry Craig or Jeff Gannon, or myself are shameful just because we are gay – even as he tries to pawn himself off as Liberal who’s trying to love everybody and protect everybody from that bad ol’ George Bush. Maybe I shouldn’t have voted for George Bush, but at least George Bush never called me a faggot, and Enkidu has come just this short of that mark, as I see it.

    Inky is like a lot of people who call themselves Liberal, but who still harbor some of the hatreds they chastise the worst of the right wing for displaying. He pretends to be a friend to Gays because he’s willing to give lip service to feel-good concepts like civil unions, but in his heart he thinks we’re here to laugh at and use as a pawn against the “other side.” He treats gays just like he treats Knarlyknight – as a convenience, and that’s why he’s a hypocrite, an asshole and a shitty friend.

    And he really needs to stop throwing the nazi imagery around as freely as he does. The nazis were some of the most vicious homophobes in World History. Somebody might make the connection.

  42. NorthernLite Says:

    If I could jump into the Iraq war/media coverage thing for a second.

    I think the failure of the media at the time – and I’m talking about all media – was not necessarily their lack of coverage of dissent, but it was more that they were not asking the questions and providing the context that people like Moore, Dixie Chicks, etc. were asking and saying. What I do recall from that time however, is when someone was on a show expressing dissent, there would be two or three “analysts” on shortly after tearing a strip into them and their statements.

    It seemed like all the media just believed what the administration was saying, without question. It’s a shame that you can’t believe what your leaders are telling you. I honestly can’t see this (supporting military action so blindly) happening again by the media anytime soon. At least I hope not.

    Which is kind of dangerous. Because there are serious threats out there, and the protectors of the free world now have zero credibility when it comes foreign policy.

  43. enkidu Says:

    I could barely stop laughing after I read looneylefty’s “See. I wouldn’t ordinarily get so mad about this, but’s just the principle of the thing.

    I have no problem with homosexuals. It is the rightwing nutters who blather on and on about the sins of other folk (while quite a few are hypocritically tasting the fruit of the forbidden tree, or root or whatever). Why is it that rwnjs seem to pass all the laws against homosexuals? Why is it that Massachusets has the lowest divorce rate in the country yet is one of the most liberal states in the union? Why was Mark Foley sending gay come-ons to minors (or near minors) while passing laws to penalize creeps who send come-ons to minors? See a pattern here? I am sure others do, but can you?

    I have voted for every gay rights initiative and will continue to mock and deride rwnjs who do not. Even a moran’s reading of your convoluted ‘logic’ (I am using that term somewhat satyrically here) would not pass the sniff test. Tighty righties fear and despise gay folks, liberals do not.

    I have entrusted my two children to a fine lesbian couple (probably our best friends down in the city) time and time again. I wouldn’t trust you with a butter knife leftymcfrootloops.

  44. enkidu Says:

    NL – there are evil turds floating around out there. One of them currently fouls the white house (and I aint talkin Barney here, tho I hear he would like to resign as well).

    Ask yourself this simple question: are we safer after invading Iraq?
    A rational assessment of the situation would have to answer: no.

    The American media is entirely owned by corporations and moneyed interests. The internet is breaking thru this cosy and creepy arrangement. Sure there is tons of noise to any signal, and you can delude yourself that FauxNEWZ really really IS fair and balanced and stuff! Or that dailyKos is is a hate site full of nazis and the kkk or other non-sense, but there are facts and there is spin.

    Try reading something out of your usual list of web sites. I find the BBC, Al Jazeera, working for change, the daily show and colbert much more fact based than the corporate kleptocracy that is modern Duhmurkkkin big media.

    ymmv

  45. leftbehind Says:

    Reading Enkidu’s next-to-last post reminded me of a gag badge I saw in an old Mad magazine. It was supposed to be a badge for the “Bigot’s Union,” and had on it a picture of a Hasidic Jew, a black guy, a woman and an American Indian, and bore the inscription “Don’t get me wrong, some of my best freinds are…” Then again, reading Enkidu’s posts always reminds me a little of old Mad magazines…

    Glad to see you finally found your way back, Ink, but your protestations of respect for homosexuals are hollow. Let me guess: your best friend’s a black guy and you still tear up when you remember Juan, the kindly old Mexican who used to take you fishing when you were five. Your great love and history of activism for the gay community of your native Fagbash Flats not withstanding, every reference you have made to homosexuals anywhere on this blog – which is the only place the rest of us here can evaluate your remarks without having to rely on you to tell us how tolerant you really are – has been degrading and insulting.

    To say that much of the right wing hates homosexuals is all too obvious, but at least they’re honest about their feelings. They don’t pretend to be tolerant when they’re not. Many of them do point the accusing finger at others, and then turn around to do the same thing, but then again so do you. You ramble on and on about other people’s supposed hate, then you make hateful implications regarding homosexuality all over this blog. You really do act like you were raised by a, what were your words, “genocidal racist.”

    What, exactly was the point of bringing up that Senator’s homosexuality, in the context of the conversation being held on this blog? Did it have anything to do with anything anyone else has said on this thread? Do you even know what anyone else on this thread has said? Why even bring up homosexuality at all here, except to turn it into a cheap shot? Why have you never mentioned homosexuality on this blog until I brought it up pertaining to my own sexuality, after which you bring it up every time you and I lock horns? Why did you, all the sudden, come up with the insult “Fruitloop,” which you never called me before I outed myself here, and which you never call anyone else? Either you’re trying to use homophobia as a rhetorical weapon, or my sexuality has touched on an issue that is too close for your comfort. Hmm…it has been my experience over the years that homosexuality is kind of like a fart – more often than not, the smeller’s the feller, if you catch my drift, Lovey ;)

    I’m reminded of a picture I saw once of the protesters at Tieniman Square. The most striking picture taken during those protests was a picture of a brave student protestor, facing down a tank. I wonder what would have happened that day had you been in that tank and that demonstrator had been wearing a slogan of gay pride on his t-shirt.

    And while we’re on the subject of Knarlyknight, how come you were big buddies with him until I made fun of you for it, then you made fun of him and his “sooper dooper” conspiracy theory, now you’re trying to make nice with him again because I called you out for being a jackass to him? What an awful way to treat somebody, particularly somebody who has a hard time making friends, and got really excited when he thought you two had hit it off? I admit, I haven’t been all that nice to him myself, but at least I had the courtesy of being an asshole from the get-go, and I didn’t pretend to be his friend when I really wasn’t. I’m really glad you and I aren’t friends.

    Not to be the spelling nazi again, but what kind of moron spells the word “moron” wrong? You spelled it “moran.” Not that my spelling is very good, either, but it’s awfully hard to make someone else look stupid when you can’t even spell “moron” right, yourself. Sorry to be such a fag about it, but come on…

  46. jbc Says:

    Not to get dragged into any of this, but “moran” is probably a joking reference to the following image:

    http://memewatch.com/thelist/archives/pix/morans.html

    At least, most of the people I know who use that spelling are making a tongue-in-cheek reference to that image.

  47. leftbehind Says:

    That’s gayer than I am.

  48. leftbehind Says:

    It is a cool coincidence you had that image handy, though

  49. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb – so you got 1000 Iraqi’s running the hell scared into the desert, with Appaches or whatever with night vision how many would survive the night? Or the next day? Oh yea, 35 – 40 degree heat, no water, they’l be fine once they find the Howard Johnson’s.

    rwnj idiats. LOL.

  50. knarlyknight Says:

    Is this working? Posts are not sticking…

  51. knarlyknight Says:

    Leftbehind reveals a lot about himself by what he fixates upon.

    For example, leftbehind writes endlessly about homosexuality, completely missing two points. The first is that it was in response to his own trashtalk that Enkidu introduced the Senator; the second point lefty missed was that Enkidu clearly states his reason for doing so (i.e. to suggest that ALL republicans are closet gay hypocrites as per last line of the enkidu quote below):

    leftbehind Says:
    August 27th, 2007 at 11:12 am
    And while we’re on the subject of you being an asshole, … what a shitty friend you really are. …

    enkidu Says:
    August 27th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
    OK, so you want to discuss famous folks and how support for Fuhrerous George’s Really Bad Idea helped or hurt their career?
    How about Ted Nugent? (and can I just say it up front here: fucking typical)
    “Facing a draft, Nugent bravely wet his pants
    Rocker is all talk as he calls Obama, Hillary vile names
    August 27, 2007
    BY RICHARD ROEPER Sun-Times Columnist …

    Dixie Chick Natalie Maines’ comments about President Bush sound like a love poem. …
    Sean Hannity …Alan Colmes …
    a reichwing hero (and gun loving über nutcase, borderline psycho).
    Typical.
    You sure you don’t want to babble on about Ed Asner?

    leftbehind Says:
    August 27th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
    Oh, Iky… … a name-calling contest. I wish you would introduce me to guy … I want to suck his dick, too.

    enkidu Says:
    August 27th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
    you start off with I’m an “asshole” and “shitty” then bemoan the tone?
    oooookkkaaaaaayyyyy
    Whatever you say Senator…
    “Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) was arrested in June at a Minnesota airport by a plainclothes police officer investigating lewd conduct complaints in a men’s public restroom, according to an arrest report…”
    Are ALL Rethuggles… closet gay hypocrits?

    It is like driving past an accident scene to read how leftbehind turns the discussion into filth and then gets upset when all the shit ends up sticking to him.

  52. knarlyknight Says:

    Both enkidu and leftbehind are acting like juvenile idiots (except of course that leftbehind isn’t acting); what is truly disturbing is that it is clear from leftbehind’s comments that he thinks that the excerpt about Sen Larry Craig is solely about homosexuality and completely misses the fact that the arrest was for lewd conduct in a public place.

    Not sure if this applies to America, but in Canada homosexuality is upheld by our Charter of Rights and Freedoms (just think of it as an updated and improved version of your Bill of Rights) and lewd behaviour in a public place is a crime.

  53. knarlyknight Says:

    So enkidu’s post raised the issue that a LEWD behaviour (whatever that was) in a men’s restroom got Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) arrested. Lewd behaviour in a public place is an ultra-hypocrisy for ANY public figure – yet all so common with the Reichwing rulers in America. It almost reminds one of the era just before the collapse of the Roman Empire.

    NOTE: Leftbehind takes a extreme exception to the raising of the homosexual component and completely overlooks the obvious fact that the arrest was for lewd behaviour in a public place. There is a big issue there. Leftbehind sees homosexuality (acceptable) and lewd behaviour in a public place (unacceptable) as one and the same; by his vehement defending of the homosexuality apparent in enkidu’s example, without discerning that there is a lewd behaviour component, leftbehind is essentially stating that lewd homosexual behaviour in a men’s restroom is acceptable. Anyone here willing to take their child into a public restroom at the same time as leftbehind?

    Lewd behaviour in public restrooms is apparently normal practice for Lefty based on his remarks or lack of perception about this key component of enkidu’s snippet and thus it may well be just part and parcel of Lefty’s gay existence or fantasy world.

    The worst kept secret of our era is many of the elected Repugnant officials are highly repressed closet fags (let’s pick just one of many examples) … the popularity of the Jeff Gannon (a gay prostitute) visits to the White House (many apparently without sign-out times – nice work secret service!) who also favour torture (but only if it is referred to by a euphemism, like “extra-ordinary rendition” or “enhanced interrogation techniques”.) But I digress.

    The point is that leftbehind apparently had “come out of the closet” on this blog (does that mean he is a closet Republican hypocrite fag?) a long time ago but now we find evidence that he has no problem with coming in public restrooms, and thus probably does not care if children are present too.

    Normally I would have just quietly hoped that people would take NorthernLite’s queue and talk about something relevant, like the astute observation that the leaders of the free world have zero credibility, but as leftbehind says: “See. I wouldn’t ordinarily get so mad about this, but’s just the principle of the thing.”

    By the way, “but’s” is a typo. Leftbehind probably meant “butts”.

  54. knarlyknight Says:

    “on this blog” (but apparently not in real life, does that mean he is a closet …?)

  55. knarlyknight Says:

    Another of leftbehind’s fixations, that of Alex Jones with his year 2000 infiltration of Bohemian Grove which was attended by those he suspects as being members of the Illuminatii and which contains Molech a big Grove owl statue), now make a lot more sense when one considers what people say about the Bohemian Grove:

    “The Bohemian Grove, that I attend from time to time — the (inaudible) and the others come there — but it is the most faggy goddamn thing that you would ever imagine. The San Francisco crowd, it’s just terrible. I can’t even shake hands with anybody from San Francisco.” — President Richard M. Nixon, Bohemian Club member…

    “The mood is reminiscent of high school. There’s no end to the pee-pee and penis jokes, suggesting that these men, advanced in so many other ways, were emotionally arrested sometime during adolescence” — Philip Weiss, Spy Magazine journalist, who infiltrated the Grove in 1989.

    Enough about the shit that sticks to leftbehind.

  56. knarlyknight Says:

    Northernlite, further to your recent ON TOPIC post about media treatment of war dissenters, you might want to consider the following two blog entries, the first of which (911blogger) begins with this quote from the second (from obsidian wings):

    “Suppose that a President invaded another country, and adopted the unusual tactic of sending our troops in unarmed and unprotected, one platoon at a time, holding signs that said: We want to take over your country! Please surrender! And suppose that, unsurprisingly, the result of this was that those troops were all killed, one after the other. Suppose that the President was urged to adopt a different strategy, but refused, on the grounds that admitting mistakes would give comfort to our enemies; and that when some people began to mutter: not as much comfort as making those mistakes in the first place, he accused them of being defeatists. Finally, suppose that after several thousand troops had been killed in this way, the American people stopped supporting this President and his war. It would be beyond galling for the President to lecture them on their lack of will, or their insufficient concern for the people of the invaded country, when the reason for their lack of support was that his own idiocy had made any good outcome impossible. ” — Obsidian Wings

    http://www.911blogger.com/node/10902

    http://www.obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2007/08/by-hilzoy-once-.html

  57. shcb Says:

    Knarly,

    Highway of death, those are good questions, most of them were answers theoretically in the article I linked to way back when. they go through how tey came up with their numbers, citing similar attacks by Isralies and the.

  58. shcb Says:

    Oops, didn’t cut and paste the right one

    Knarly,

    Highway of death, those are good questions, most of them were answers theoretically in the article I linked to way back when. they go through how they came up with their numbers, citing similar attacks by Israelis and the resulting casualty rate, I know you don’t like numbers but they are well documented in this case. They also say, locals saw many Iraqis’ running from the area and that our forces encountered some of them the next day, it doesn’t say if we killed, captured or ignored them.

  59. leftbehind Says:

    Knarly – Thank God we’re back on topic, and thanks for fleshing out the info on Bohemian Grove. Not to get stuck on this Moloch thing, but I think it’s important, and explains a lot.

    As far as I can tell, Moloch in an Old Testament diety whose cult, at some point in Jewish history, competed with the cult of Yahweh. The Illuminati, at least as Alex Jones and some other commentators define them, continue the worship of Moloch. Does this have any bearing on 9-11? I know you won’t want to go into this, but I think you have studied the matter, and realize there is a lot more going on here than how fast a plane had to travel to hit the Pentagon. Either you’re in to tell the whole story or you’re helping prop up the lie.

    Larry Craig was not arrested for lewd behavior, although his behavior was probably lewd. He was arrested for Disorderly Conduct. None of this has anything to do with media coverage of anti-war dissent, which is what was being discussed when you initially entered the conversation, nor does it have anything to do with anything you or I have been discussing since the conversation diverged a bit. As usual, Inky barged in with nothing to say, and re-directed the conversation towards his new pet topic, homosexual Republicans. Had Larry Craig not been gay or Republican, Inky would never have interjected him into the conversation. I take the blame for introducing the gay/Republican dictomonomy some time ago, but it really seems to have excited Inky’s imagination in a way I never could have forseen. Maybe you’re right – maybe he is a closet. I wonder, if he really believes all Republicans are closeted gays. Would this explain why he spends so much time hanging around his Dad’s “genocidal Republican” friends?

  60. leftbehind Says:

    But this is not to short-sheet your own comments. Congratulations, I thought Inky was going to be the one who would come right out and call me a “fag” first. Good thing you saved him the trouble – he’s a liberal, you know.

    Thanks for establishing some important facts about fags, namely that we’re emotionally immature, that we all cruise for sex in bathrooms, and we’re all pedophiles. The scales have been lifted…now, if you’d only be so forthright about Moloch and the Illuminati.

    Speaking of the Illuminati, maybe you’re on to something with this fag/Bohemian Grove axis. After all, Oliver Stone thinks we killed JFK, maybe we blew up the World Trade Center, too.

  61. leftbehind Says:

    You should thank Alex Jones for digging up your Nixon quote for you:

    infowars.com/articles/occult/bg_nixon_tape_homosexuals_audio.htm

    The Homosexual Conspiracy seems to be a real hot topic at Infowars/PrisonPlanet:

    prisonplanet.com/Pages/300504_six_year_old_boy_wants_to_kill.html

    prisonplanet.com/Pages/270504_hate_crime.html

    everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1056095

    In picking my links from the Alex Jones, I tried to pick out the “good information,” from the “bad information,” but I get so confused sometimes. Knarly – you spend entirely too much time on Alex Jones’ websites – is this that “good information” you’ve been telling us about?

  62. knarlyknight Says:

    My info this time came from Wiki, but if you want to contiunue your plugs for Alex Jones I don’t care.

    Your twisting is blatant so I’ll not waste my time except to point out the only one I suggested is gay (and perhaps criminally lewd) is YOU. Nice of you to stick up for Sen Larry Craig, you might get some special favours from him if you point out how you discerned that it was disorderly conduct for which he pleaded guilty while the investigation was for lewd behaviour. Funny your ability to discern these differences for petty plea bargains or whatever, yet have no concept of discernment or judgement when it comes to the real issues.

    Still focused on Alex Jones andMollech I see, you poor idiot. No sense continuing this dialogue, I have better conversations with my dog.

  63. enkidu Says:

    shcb
    I posted a rebuttal to the Highway of Death numbers thread in this meta-thread, but the intertubes ate it (must have been the two links I put in there?)

    Basically, try this: go to the google, type in Highway of Death, then click Images. Peruse a few, a dozen if you have the time. Please note that a significant fraction of the vehicles are military trucks. How many armies drive around with a single driver in each truck? And note the large number of civ buses and such. Sure there are plenty of stolen mercedes and bmws and the like, but they appear to be less than a third of the total (guesstimate).

    So let us say 2000 vehicles… each with a driver… any passengers? In the rwnj world the answer is No Sir! why? because it would be embarrassing if the US of A were committing a war crime by massacring retreating enemy forces that were complying with the UN order for withdrawl (ok, that is stretching it a bit, but it plays on the arab street, sigh). The reality based answer is that there was probably significantly more than 1 driver in each vehicle. Yet once the shooting starts rwnj worldview is 75% of these 2000 guys got away. If there were on average 5 guys per vehicle (averaging a military truck with say a dozen and a stolen bmw with one driver – rounding down, way down, and guesstimating wildly). The islomonutjob answer is that we massacred 10,000 Iraqis on those two roads. Funny how my estimate is approximately 10,000 total retreating enemy soldiers (fair game imho) and the total body count are the same. I would guess there were about 10,000 legitimate targets on that road (not counting vehicles ;-) I would bet we killed… what? 1/4? 1/3? 1/2?

    That’s about 2500, 3300 and 5000 dead Iraqi irregulars.

    I’ll wrap this up by saying one reason I didn’t vote for GHWB in ’92 was they screwed up the Iraq War I (‘despite’ winning it… like a tenth rate military is going to stand up to all the USA and its broad coalition can dish out? riiiight). The highway of death should have been littered with Rethugglican™®© Guard corpses and vehicles. Instead they got away, the Rethugglican™®© Guard slaughtered the Kurds and Marsh Arab uprising (our no fly zone didn’t work too well when we let the helis fly to machine gun the anti-Saddam uprising).

    But don’t let facts or figures, reason and intellect get in the way of a good story. One where Duhmerkkkuh can do no wrong. Where shrubco is competent. Just keep the partisan bullshit spigot cranked to 11 and screw them crazy seditious libs! yeeeeehaw!

  64. leftbehind Says:

    Knarly – Your quotes came from Alex Jones, and I’ve provided the links to prove it, as I always do. Practically every time I’ve ever traced any of your facts or quotes, they’ve always ended up on either Prison Planet or Infowars, which are both Alex Jones sites. There is no fag anywhere in the world that could be up anybody’s ass as far as you are up Alex Jones’.

  65. leftbehind Says:

    If homosexuals are worshippers of Moloch, is that why God hates fags so much?

  66. enkidu Says:

    looney lefty
    you are too whacked to ‘debate’

    lets recap, shall we?
    I ‘jack the thread for a moment to make a point about statistics and how not knowing some information can lead to a fundamentally biased ‘analysis’ of the same limited amount of information (see highway of death etc)

    Your response: I’m and asshole and shitty

    I respond with a thread relavent topic: famous right wing turds
    ie Mr I-crapped-my-pants-to-stay-outta-’Nam Nugent

    and a great article about war graft and waste and stupidity (bet lefty didn’t bother to read that one!)

    Your response: flibberty gibbit!

    I then mentioned a breaking news story about a prominently anti-gay Sentator is guilty of lewd and lascivious behavior (which happened to be teh gay ;-)

    Your response: Inky hates teh gay!!!1!!!1!~

    Suddenly your black and gay? And Rethugglican™®©?
    Wow what a scary panalopy of contradictory (o lets just say it – insane!) voices must make up your society of mind. Just keep being your crazy self loony. If you are the finest the Rethuggles™®© have to offer, we sane folk will set things right starting in Jan of ’09. You just keep bein you man!

    In a word: hilarious.

  67. enkidu Says:

    jbc – thx for fielding the “moran” idiocy

    The star spangled moran is a tenacious breed of chicken hawk.

    It clings to the fetid Swamps of Hypocrisy and fouls (fowls?) the lofty peaks of the Federal (over-)Spending Mountains. Perhaps other more Ornithologically interested posters could help me fill out the life cycle, breeding habits (ugh) and psychoses that this breed exhibits.

  68. leftbehind Says:

    You should thank JBC for the Moran save, but I still have my doubts as to whether or not you really knew you’d misspelled “moron.” For JBC’s save to be valid, we’d have to believe that you’d seen that picture before, and it’s a really off chance that such a picture would run in your local paper, the Fagbash Times-Picayune. Moreover, we’d have to believe you would actually realize the word was misspelled in the picture and, judging from your usual performance, that’s a big stretch.

    All the sudden? I’ve been gay for a while, and black for a whole lot longer. You’d know this if you actually read anything on this blog other than your own posts, or do you even read those? Sorry my politics don’t fit into your stereotypes, Massa Ink. The only thing worse than a mouthy faggot is a nigger who doesn’t know his place, huh?

  69. leftbehind Says:

    Signed yout friend, teh gay.

  70. TeacherVet Says:

    Inky, did you write the script for the little South Carolina beauty queen?

  71. shcb Says:

    Enkidu,

    I didn’t go back and read that article I have been quoting, but those numbers sound reasonable from what I recall. They said the Washington post number of 200-300 was way to light and the 10,000 of the Palestinian woman was way to high. If you reread what I said, they used the 1,000 or so as a minimum. In the article they used figures of 15 to 30 percent based on similar battles by the Israelis. I recall they agreed the number of soldiers to be around 10,000 before the attack. So 2,000 to 3,000 with 1,000 as a minimum sounds reasonable. But that is a far cry from 10,000 and I’ve read things written by Joyce where she says the numbers were “in the tens of thousands”. When I hear that, I don’t think of 10,001 I think of something like 30,000 as a minimum.

    I agree with you on Bush 41, I was pissed when we stopped early and then didn’t help the Kurds, that was a black mark on the UN and Bush for not standing up to the UN. I think Clinton learned from that mistake and didn’t get UN approval before he went into the Balkans and he won the war. I like Bush 41, I think he is a decent man and a workable president, but certainly not a great president. Stories I have heard say he probably wouldn’t have had the courage to attack without Thatcher.

  72. enkidu Says:

    hey lefty, let’s make a deal.

    So… you doubt that I knew the proper spelling for “moron” and wasn’t using “moran” satyrically. So if I can come up with a post that factually proves that I used it corrrectly in context, you will please leave and never come back to lies.com again? If I can’t come up with that factual proof, I’ll never come back to lies.com ever again (I know how you will miss me sweetcheeks). You have my word that I’ll live up to my end of the bargain.

    Deal?

  73. shcb Says:

    Don’t do it boys!!!! Don’t take that bet!!!!!!! It’s not worth it!!!!!!!!!

  74. leftbehind Says:

    I WOULD miss you, you foolish, foolish, beautiful man, and I think you would miss me too. Maybe the other mooks around here think this is all about issues and politics, but you and I know differently.

    If you really wanted me gone, you wouldn’t try to call me out to on the Larry Craig thread above when I had made no direct effort to confront you. If you really wanted me gone, you certainly wouldn’t have tried to pigpile on me with Knarly over that stupid 9-11 truth crap you don’t even believe, and which you disavowed immediately after. You called me out because you wanted to argue. You like to argue. You live to argue. You don’t get to fight like this in real life, do you?

    You called me out because I’m the only one here that gives you what you want. Most of the posters on this site won’t call you on your shit because you give lip service to the same Liberal pieties they do and the ones who will…well, they won’t give you the fight I can, do they? This place would be as boring as shit without me, and you know it.

    If you wanted to have dull little conversations about Congressional rules and proper military deportment and stupid little non-issues like Valerie Plame and a bunch of lawyers nobody gives two shits about getting fired, you’d do it in the same measured, calm, flaccid way everybody else does, but that’s not what you’re after, is it? You want to rage. You want to flame like the sun. It makes it easier be Dan or Bob or whatever your real name is when you can come here for a while be Enkidu, the Man of Iron, sent down from the mountaintop from God himself to smash the jaws of the wicked and knock the Cheney’s from their jeweled thrones.

    And what is the mighty hero without an adversary? You can’t rage when there’s nobody to rage at. Flames mean nothing when there’s no one to burn. I’m the Loki to your Thor, the Joker to your Batman.

    Hey, I’m not casting stones. You and I are a lot alike. Too much alike, really. I come here for my fix, too. Obviously, I must be drawn to your anger, or I wouldn’t provoke it every damn day. Obviously, I really enjoy being a jackass, and feel incredibly blessed to find someone who feeds off shabby treatment as robustly as you do.

    We don’t meet here as Democrat and Republican, or as Liberal and Conservative. Those are just excuses for us to get together do what we love the best – derail other people’s serious conversations by hurling juvenile insults at one another. What kind of Liberal votes for the first George Bush? What kind of homosexual votes Republican? You and I are two sides of the same, argumentative coin. We were made for each other, you and I. Ah, and the good times we’ve had.

    If you really want me to leave this blog and never come back, stop posting yourself. A blog without Enkidu is no blog for me.

    I love you, man.

  75. leftbehind Says:

    …also, I refuse to believe that a father of children who is supposed to be a fighter pilot could be possessed of an ego so easily bruised that he would actually take the time to prove he can spell “moron” correctly, simply because his feelings were hurt by some jerk he doesn’t even know who doubted his ability to on a weblog. That’s a little emotionally stunted, even for you.

    Just what would it prove if it does turn out I’m wrong and you can spell “moron?” Are you suddenly John Kenneth Galbraith because you can spell “moron” correctly? Are any of your acerbic ramblings any less vitrolic to the point of chaos because you’re good with small words? If this isn’t the most childish conversation I’ve ever taken part in with a supposed adult, I’ll voluntarily ban myself from the entire internet for the next fifty years.

    Besides, anybody with half a brain can spell his own name correctly, at least once for Pete’s sake.

  76. knarlyknight Says:

    leftbehind,

    Bullshit. Amusing BS, such that for once it was possible to
    read most your post, but still BS. And shcb was right to warn you about the challenge, you would lose.

    For the record, lefty is wrong again about enkidu wasting time defending himself. It is leftbehind who has wasted so much time (i.e. text) in speaking about the moron/moran issue. After enkidu’s use of the term on August 28th, 2007 at 1:12 pm , lefty used 856 words in his childish and erroneous attack whereas enkidu used merely 153 words to defend it.

    shcb, early you stated about the highway of death that “They also say, locals saw many Iraqis’ running from the area and that our forces encountered some of them the next day, it doesn’t say if we killed, captured or ignored them. ” Think man. Think. You defend the right of your troops to attack and slaughter the retreating soldiers on the highway of death as a means to prevent their re-grouping and going home to fight again another day, obviously captuing them was not the approved option. So now you are suggesting that the troops might have ignored or captured the very same comrades of those they slaughtered days earlier. Ahh, yes, the marines got so teary eyed about their high tech shoot ‘em up hours earlier that they decided to make nice with the “gentlemen from the Baath Republican guards” who fucked off when they were trying to kill them. Makes perfect sense if you are a believer in fairy tales.

    Also for the record, I submit this as the most childish conversation leftbehind has engaged upon, due to his own stupid fixations which purposely dragged down an other rational conversation:

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
    If anyone wants to read the rest of Gareth Williams’ article, here it is on the site where it first appeared, Alex Jones’ “Prison Planet.”

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2007/240607Data2.htm

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
    Interested parties are also directed to Alex Jones’ Myspace page. If you have trouble finding it, just access it from Gareth Williams’ page here:

    http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=29293898

    This is cool and informative as well:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNBiVNNTk0c

    knarlyknight Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
    Lefty, quit wasting my time with irrelevant links. You must be 12 years old.

    If anyone wants to see the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board’s (NTSB) video of flight 77 (it is a cool!), and the analysis of the FAA data that supports the NTSB video go to:

    pilotsfor911truth.org

    Both the video and the data set from show that THE FLIGHT PATH DOES NOT MATCH what the 911 COMISSION REPORT says was the flight path.

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
    How are my links irrelevant? My last three were, for example, a link to a complete article you yourself had already excerpted, a link to the myspace page of that article’s author and a link to a video by the guy who runs the website from which the article originates (as does much of the information you have cited on this thread.) This all seems pretty on-topic to me.

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
    This is irrelevant to the present conversation:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iIxvRsn9zk

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
    This, cosidering this guy is the major source of information you’ve cited here, is of the utmost relevance:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iIxvRsn9zk

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
    …just kidding – the one in the middle just LOOKS a lot like Alex Jones:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrZ1B38TH6k

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
    “…but Alex, what about the Mark of the Beast?”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdCDYppqoMk

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rVbhSTzbsE

    knarlyknight Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
    Who would have guessed that SHCB would turn out to be a CONSPIRACY THEORIST and Lefty would self destruct into a pre-occupation with Alex Jones?

  77. knarlyknight Says:

    leftbehind,

    Bullshit. Amusing BS, such that for once it was possible to
    read most all of your post, but still BS. And shcb was right to warn you about the challenge, you would lose.

    For the record, lefty is wrong again because it is leftbehind who has wasted so much time (i.e. text) in speaking about the moron/moran issue. After enkidu’s use of the term on August 28th, 2007 at 1:12 pm , lefty used 856 words in his childish and erroneous attack whereas enkidu used 153 words to defend it.

  78. knarlyknight Says:

    Also for the record, I submit this as the most childish conversation leftbehind has engaged upon, due to his own stupid fixations which purposely dragged down an other rational conversation:

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
    If anyone wants to read the rest of Gareth Williams’ article, here it is on the site where it first appeared, Alex Jones’ “Prison Planet.”

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2007/240607Data2.htm

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
    Interested parties are also directed to Alex Jones’ Myspace page. If you have trouble finding it, just access it from Gareth Williams’ page here:

    http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=29293898

    This is cool and informative as well:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNBiVNNTk0c

    knarlyknight Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
    Lefty, quit wasting my time with irrelevant links. You must be 12 years old.

    If anyone wants to see the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board’s (NTSB) video of flight 77 (it is a cool!), and the analysis of the FAA data that supports the NTSB video go to:

    pilotsfor911truth.org

    Both the video and the data set from show that THE FLIGHT PATH DOES NOT MATCH what the 911 COMISSION REPORT says was the flight path.

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
    How are my links irrelevant? My last three were, for example, a link to a complete article you yourself had already excerpted, a link to the myspace page of that article’s author and a link to a video by the guy who runs the website from which the article originates (as does much of the information you have cited on this thread.) This all seems pretty on-topic to me.

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
    This is irrelevant to the present conversation:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iIxvRsn9zk

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
    This, cosidering this guy is the major source of information you’ve cited here, is of the utmost relevance:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iIxvRsn9zk

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
    …just kidding – the one in the middle just LOOKS a lot like Alex Jones:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrZ1B38TH6k

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
    “…but Alex, what about the Mark of the Beast?”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdCDYppqoMk

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rVbhSTzbsE

    knarlyknight Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
    Who would have guessed that SHCB would turn out to be a CONSPIRACY THEORIST and Lefty would self destruct into a pre-occupation with Alex Jones?

  79. knarlyknight Says:

    Also for the record, I submit this as the most childish conversation leftbehind has engaged upon, due to his own stupid fixations which purposely dragged down an other rational conversation:

    leftbehind Says:
    June 25th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
    If anyone wants to read the rest of Gareth Williams’ article, here it is on the site where it first appeared, Alex Jones’ “Prison Planet.”
    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2007/240607Data2.htm

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
    Interested parties are also directed to Alex Jones’ Myspace page. If you have trouble finding it, just access it from Gareth Williams’ page here:

    http://www.profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=29293898

    This is cool and informative as well:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNBiVNNTk0c

    knarlyknight Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
    Lefty, quit wasting my time with irrelevant links. You must be 12 years old.

    If anyone wants to see the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board’s (NTSB) video of flight 77 (it is a cool!), and the analysis of the FAA data that supports the NTSB video go to:

    http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org

    Both the video and the data set from show that THE FLIGHT PATH DOES NOT MATCH what the 911 COMISSION REPORT says was the flight path.

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
    How are my links irrelevant? My last three were, for example, a link to a complete article you yourself had already excerpted, a link to the myspace page of that article’s author and a link to a video by the guy who runs the website from which the article originates (as does much of the information you have cited on this thread.) This all seems pretty on-topic to me.

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
    This is irrelevant to the present conversation:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iIxvRsn9zk

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
    This, cosidering this guy is the major source of information you’ve cited here, is of the utmost relevance:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iIxvRsn9zk

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
    …just kidding – the one in the middle just LOOKS a lot like Alex Jones:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrZ1B38TH6k

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
    “…but Alex, what about the Mark of the Beast?”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdCDYppqoMk

    leftbehind Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rVbhSTzbsE

    knarlyknight Says:

    June 25th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
    Who would have guessed that SHCB would turn out to be a CONSPIRACY THEORIST and Lefty would self destruct into a pre-occupation with Alex Jones?

  80. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb, early you stated about the highway of death that “They also say, locals saw many Iraqis’ running from the area and that our forces encountered some of them the next day, it doesn’t say if we killed, captured or ignored them. ” Think man. Think. You rationalize and defend the right of your troops to attack and slaughter the retreating soldiers on the highway of death as a means to prevent their re-grouping and going home to fight again another day; obviously captuing thousands of them was not the approved option. So now you are suggesting that the troops might have ignored or captured the comrades of those they slaughtered days earlier. Another fairy tale from shcb: Ahh, you see, the marines got so teary eyed about their high tech shoot ‘em up hours earlier that they decided to make nice with the “fine gentlemen from the Baath Republican guards” who dissed ‘em by fucking off and not getting toasted when they were supposed to die like pigs.

    Makes perfect sense if you, like shcb, are a believer in fairy tales.

  81. leftbehind Says:

    Knarly – If you want me to stop bringing up Alex Jones, quit using him as a source. As long as you use Alex Jones as a major source for your own arguments, any links or sitations that either establish his credibility or cast that credibility into question are on-topic and relevant. Even you must understand this on some level.

    This “Highway of Death” argument has gotten stupid. Are we crying about enemy combatants killed on the field, now? Troops in retreat, who retain their arms and have not surrendered are still active combatants, and are liable to get shot. Any moran knows this. Enkidu’s in the military, ask him.

  82. leftbehind Says:

    Show me where, in the Geneva convention, it protects retreating troops from attack. Show me where any armed combatant is protected from attack unless he has surrendered or otherwise reliquished his weapon.

  83. enkidu Says:

    looney – just keep up the diatribes and nonsense. You are occasionally amusing. You go girl!

    Please take me up on my deal, I would really love it if you never posted here again (or anywhere ever again as you so kindly offered). I never claimed to be a radical Dim Lib (IND or no affiliation), a fighter pilot or half the crap that dribbles from your IP#. You seem mighty glib with the hysterical swearing, racial epithets and homosexual perjoratives for a wise old gay black man. I call bullshit on your nonsense, but just keep those colors flyin!

  84. leftbehind Says:

    Attention, everybody. Baby’s going to prove he can spell “moron” for us. C’mon, Baby, spell “Moron” for Daddy…

  85. leftbehind Says:

    If you’re not a fighter pilot, or a pilot of some sort, how did you take your kids “up in a multimillion piece of Government aircraft” to show them “a little bit of Daddy Enk’s world?”

    If you’re not a Liberal what are you, a Conservative?

    C’mon, pooky, spell “moron” for Daddy…

  86. leftbehind Says:

    M……O……R…..

  87. leftbehind Says:

    …O…

  88. TeacherVet Says:

    …en…(kidu). He was possibly in some version of the TANG.

  89. shcb Says:

    Hi guys,

    Highway of death

    I’ve read the applicable sections of both the ’49 and ’77 versions of the Geneva conventions, the stretch Joyce is making stems from a passage that says something to the effect that combatants are protected from harm if they have been removed from battle. If you read what that means it says a soldier that has surrendered, is in the process of surrendering, is wounded, that type of thing. Retreating soldiers are of course fair game, and the idea of the game is to kill as many of them without loosing your men.

    But this is how the propaganda game is played, this shrewd Palestinian woman says “removed from battle” and points to the fact they were going the wrong direction and gullible folks eat it up, she doesn’t say what that phrase means, even though it is spelled out quite plainly in the document she is citing. Just like she says there were many Palestinian “civilians” in that convoy. Why would there be a large number of Palestinians in Kuwait? Vacationing? And why would they decide to take that moment to move the party into Iraq? She on one hand says there were ten thousand on that road and then later says tens of thousands were killed. This is all about discrediting her.

    Did we kill more later as we came across them, absolutely. If we did do battle with them later, they obviously didn’t surrender. And we probably wouldn’t attack them after they had gotten into the civilian population. If there were a couple trucks loaded with soldiers, in the middle of a group of civilian vehicles we would not have attacked them unless we could get a clean shot. So there were probably cases where we did indeed let them go, and we probably fought them years later on another battlefield.

    I think it is funny, liberals have been shouting “you can’t beat this enemy with planes and tanks” and yet in this battle where we could and did, they lament that more of our guys weren’t killed. Which makes my case that liberals don’t want to win this or any other war, they want a tie.

  90. TeacherVet Says:

    Knarly, I tried to ignore the temptation, but it’s just too much. Are you sure that you, of all people, wish to designate debate winners based on brevity? Hypocrisy? If that is the basis of such judgement, should we then assume that you have lost all debates on this site?

    Inky continues to pursue his gay-baiting diatribe against LB, as expected, but you seemingly choose to encourage him in that regard… more hypocrisy?

  91. knarlyknight Says:

    TV,
    No of course not. The leftbehind tried to make a point that enkidu was taking a lot of time to debate the moran/moron issue and I showed that the exact opposite was true using word counts as proxy for effort.
    got to go, havenèt read shcb yet thatèl have to wait for tomorrow.

  92. leftbehind Says:

    To clarify: I wasn’t trying to say Enkidu was taking too much time debating the “moron/moran” thing, I was saying that it was a childish thing to get all bent out of shape about in the first place. I didn’t realize he used as many words as you say he did. The only two words I got out of it were “Boo Hoo.”

    SHCB – I won’t make blanket statements abouts liberals as a whole, as I have come to understand and respect what a lot of them are saying in regards to the war, whether or not I totally agree. However, I think you’ve really hit the nail on the head regarding a certain population of the anti-war movement. I’m not going to take the talk radio tack that anyone has necessarily chosen sides with the terrorists (yeah, I know, Inky – but it’s as good a word as any and everybody here knows who I mean,) but there is a certain subset of the movement that has decided they’re definitely not on the side of the American military. If our losses are heavy, the soldiers become martyrs; unfortunate victims of the Iraq policy. If the other side’s losses are great, it’s because we’re war criminals – shooting defenseless innocents, blowing up ambulances out of spite, etc. I don’t think most people on either side of the debate feel this way, but the sentiment is at least there on the fringes.

  93. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb,

    thx for your time to research and describe retreating kills etc.

    Makes sense to me, generally, althoug it would be refreshing not to have to ignore your ignorant stereotyping of the ‘liberals’ say this or that crap; and I respect your position that this is all about discrediting that shrewd Palestinian woman. No problems with that position either, to the estent to which she may be misconstruing facts etc. – which you have at least partly demonstrated. Careful how far you go though. Large numbers of Palestinians were working in Kuwait (the Kuwaiti do virtually no menial work due to their oil wealth.) As the ground war commenced, the Palestinians (wiki calls them palestinian militia – hard to fathom why such a militia would be in Kuwait as the Iraqi army needed no such help) would be freaked out by the advancing foreign (very foreign) armies. It took a lot more courage to hunker down through the battle in Kuwait and face the victorious infidels in the following days (especially if you were a Palestinian in Kuwait without papers) than it would to attempt to flee home, initially with the retreating Iraqi fighters (there would be a sense of safety in numbers in joining the exodus). Staying meant facing an unknown enemy, in a word: terrifying.

    Fleeing meant (or would have seemed to have meant) getting away from the active battles. Heading to safety – an easy choice for someone wanting to return to their family. But fleeing turned out to be the fatal decision for those on the highway of death.

    Colin Powel made an honest statement one month before the ground war:

    “Our strategy to go after the Army is very, very simple. First we are going to cut it off, and then we’re going to kill it.”
    General Colin L. Powell, USA
    Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,
    news conference
    January 23, 1991

    No western liberal (certainly no-one on Lies.com) laments the fact that more American troops did not die in the Gulf War (shame to you for suggesting that), and I for one was amazed and encouraged by the swift efficiency of that American military. Not proceeding into Baghdad was also brilliant for the reasons then so succinctly summed up by Dick Cheney in 1994:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I

    Over ten years of sanctions later then a crippled Iraq mimics WTC towers 1, 2, & 7 being demolished on September 11, 2001 into a twisted pile of rubble:
    http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/SzambotiSustainabilityofControlledDemolitionHypothesisForDestructionofTwinTowers.pdf

    Go figure.

  94. shcb Says:

    Knarly,

    Thanks for your measured response. Don’t take my blanket criticisms of Liberals to personally, on occasion I do intend to point my criticism directly at a person or group with vicious intent, just like you guys do at me, but usually I only mean it as a generalization, a prejudice, a baseline or example. It is all part of letting people know where you sit before you tell them where you stand. If someone is lecturing me on the nutritional benefits of lemons I want to know are they a scientist or do they own a lemonade stand, just part of the filtering process.

    My statement that liberals want more of our guys killed seems to have touched a nerve with friend and foe alike, let me explain. I know the number of people on the left and right, and there are some on the right, that want us to be defeated militarily by huge loss of life of our soldiers is a very small number. Those aren’t the people I’m talking about. The people I am talking about are the ones that get squeamish if we win too big. They are the same people who cry police brutality if the suspect was shot 12 times by the three police officers. Once the decision has been made to shoot the suspect, and that is a heavy decision, but once it has been made, the threat should be removed. Somehow if the police shot 17 times and hit him 12 it is worse than if they shot 17 times and hit him 2. I just say it is a matter of marksmanship. In this case I am refering to the folks that call this a massacre, which of course it was, but in a good sense.

    Back to our soldiers, while this portion of the liberal population doesn’t want our guys killed, they don’t want the enemy killed either. But of course you don’t win a war that way, but you don’t lose either, a tie. Now of course, our enemy has a free will, if they decide to keep fighting when we stop they will kill more of our guys, then we will ramp our violence up, if we start to have overwhelming wins, liberals scream, we slow our advance to placate them and the whole process starts over. So while the libs don’t want our troops killed, their aversion to decisive wins has that exact effect. In the end what they hope for is for all wars to end in a tie making war pointless.

    Which brings me full circle to my point I made months ago that of the four stages of battle; offence, defense, retreat, and surrender, liberals default to defense and conservatives default to offence. Since the purpose of the retreat is to regroup to go back onto offence it is useless to a liberal, leaving only defense and surrender. The best you can hope for in that situation is a tie. Making war…..

    So while we don’t want to live in a place where everyone is a warmonger like me, when the decision has been made to fight, we should fight to win or we will be in perpetual state of siege. And winning necessarily means the occasional overwhelming defeat of the enemy.

  95. shcb Says:

    LB,

    “…but there is a certain subset of the movement that has decided they’re definitely not on the side of the American military. If our losses are heavy, the soldiers become martyrs; unfortunate victims of the Iraq policy. If the other side’s losses are great, it’s because we’re war criminals – shooting defenseless innocents, blowing up ambulances out of spite, etc. I don’t think most people on either side of the debate feel this way, but the sentiment is at least there on the fringes.”

    This is a different but equally important aspect of this tact by liberals, with the intended outcome the same, a tie. The hoped for outcome is to morally equivilize everything to the point where no one is right and no one is wrong, a tie. At some point the only thing that is obviously wrong is war, and the only thing right is peace. But true peace, freedom, is not simply the absence of war.

  96. leftbehind Says:

    Back in the 1960′s, there were two distinct factions within the anti-Vietnam War movement. One of these, probably the most mainstream, and definitely the one which won the case over time, held that the war was an ill-explained exercise that was costing far more American lives than it was worth, due to top-down mismanagement. Another faction, personified by forces within SDS (i.e. the eventual Weather Underground,) the Yippies, White Panther Party and various other campus radicals and far left intellectuals, had it that the War in Vietnam was but one facet of an overall assault on the Third World by Imperialist tyranny. North Vietnam, Cuba, China and various Central American and African revolutionaries were seen as allies in a World War against the tyranny of the West in general, and the United States in particular. To this line of thinking, the war was not only a tragic misstep, but a genocidal march towards Empire by the U.S. It was essential, they argued, that U.S. involvement in Southeast Asia not only end, but end badly for the U.S., leaving the strongest bulwark of Imperialist Capitalism irreparably damaged and less able to hinder the world revolution of righteous third world peoples. Again, this was hardly a mainstream view, but it is well-documented in such readily available documents as Jerry Rubin’s book “Do It!” the writings of Abbie Hoffman and various public statements by the Weathermen and others

    While this view is hardly mainstream today, in the struggle against the Iraq War, it is an argument entrenched deeply enough in the fringes of the far Left that it has crept its way back into discourse as far back as 9-11, when at least some of the high-profile reaction to the WTC attack was framed in anti-Imperialist terms (Sontag, Chomsky, et al) as was a portion of the opposition against the War in Afghanistan.

    Today, this attitude expresses itself in the characterization, by some fringe elements, of the Iraqi “insurgents” as freedom fighters or, as Michael Moore has called them, the new “Minutemen.”

    “Once again, it’s that time of year when we should remember the Minutemen…no, not that gang of racist freaks running wild in Arizona — and no, I’m not talking about the goddamn’ missile, either; I’m talking about the real Minutemen, the new Minutemen of our age who are directly resisting imperialist rule in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere — while liberals in the USA sip lattes, talk about what Ghandi would do and complain about ‘all that violence…’

    “In 1776, gangs of raggedy-assed guerrilla resistance fighters took on the largest, best-equipped, best-trained Imperial Army on the planet, and dished them out a harder licking than they ever expected…and you know the rest.

    “And so it is in 2005; gangs of raggedy-assed guerrilla resistance fighters take on the largest, best-equipped, best-trained Imperial Army on the planet, and it’s looking once again like King George’s goons are going to get a worse whuppin’ than they ever expected. Seems as if even as they crow about how much of Iraq they “control”, the largest, best-equipped etc. Imperial Army is actually being surrounded, jumped, and sucker-punched every time they turn around by the aforementioned raggedy-assed guerrillas, as the Resistance spreads across Iraq, and King George’s boys are left “squeezing Jello” in Fallujah and elsewhere.

    “So get with it, gang; quit falling for all this apologetic liberal flag-kissing this Fourth, and start supporting _our_ troops, the ones actively fighting imperialism “on the ground”, for real, in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.”

    above quote from dc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/125450/index.php

    Clearly, the above quote is not anti-war; it is anti-American. If the Iraqi Insurgents are the ground soldiers in a war against tyranny, the US military are, by definition, agents of tyranny. Of course they are war criminals: despots have ever encouraged, even required acts of depravity from their soldiers – on a massive scale. Even if their tactics might otherwise fall under the color of recognized military procedures, American soldiers carry out their orders in service of an ultimately evil ideal: the further tightening of imperialist screws on the Middle East and, ultimately the entire world.

    People who subscribe to this view are at least some of the people I think you’re talking about if I’m reading you properly, SHCB. At least they’re worth bringing up in the present conversation. Again, they’re not the majority of war-opponents by any stretch, but there are enough of them who have been vocal enough that they affect the debate on both sides.

  97. knarlyknight Says:

    Leftbehind,
    Your first second and third paragraphs are commendable. Thanks for that background, I had long forgotten how prominent that side of the left once was. As such I would question the description “fringe elements”, not that it is inaccurate per se but because there may be a much more accurate term.
    Your last two paragraphs funnel the real world into a black and white prism where the truth of colour is lost. Anti-war is not in that case anti American, unless you actually beleive that America stands for pro-war and imperialism which I resolutely disallow as a fundamental truth (so far). Certainly, the administratration and some of their advisors seem to be all out rushing into a Project for a New American Century type of militarism and empire, but I do not beleive that is what Americans, the people, truly want. You might know better.

  98. shcb Says:

    LB,

    The group you are describing is certainly included in the group I am talking about here, but I think I am talking about the Moore crowd more than the Chomsky and Hoffman crowd. The group I am talking about certainly looks up to Chomsky and Hoffman, but would probably think of them as a little too radical. I am talking about essentially the guys on this site and the folks maybe a little more to the center. People who love this country as much as I do, people who are patriotic to a point, but not as overt as me. They love this country for what it is and what it means to so many around the world, they just don’t like the institutions and methods it took to get here and stay here.

    They don’t particularly like capitalism, but they like the standard of living it gives them. They don’t like corporations, but most of them work for one, they don’t like rich people but would love to be one. They just aren’t very practical when it comes to the tradeoffs in life. They would love for this country to be what it is without the things they don’t like, but then it wouldn’t be America, it would just be another European nation.

    This brings us to war; they hate war, who doesn’t, but they find it so repulsive they just want it to go away, we call that the “mommy make it stop” syndrome. When the little boy falls and skins his knee and wants his mother to stop the pain, but she can’t, the pain has to follow its natural course, she can mitigate it a bit with some treatment, but she can’t make it go away. They can’t control our enemies so they try and control our military and lawmakers any way they can including screaming “war atrocity” at the first sign of a problem, way before all the facts are in. Remember that deserter that fled to Canada that said he saw an atrocity on almost every mission? We haven’t heard from him much, have we? Go back and look at some of the comments here on Lies, there were guys saying this proved atrocities in the military were epidemic, even before any of his charges were investigated. As far as I can tell there have only been two high profile atrocities in this war so far that have had merit, and justice has been served in both cases.

    Look back on past events and pay attention to the reaction of these main stream liberals in future events, you will see an effort to elevate the bad guys a little and bring down the good guys a little so the net effect is a tie. Then they can say “see, war doesn’t work” of course, then the bad guys get a firm foothold and it costs 50 million lives to bring everything back into balance. But since everything was so screwed up by that time, that would be a justifiable war. But we should never have another because this one cost 50 million lives. It’s enough to drive a man to drink.

  99. knarlyknight Says:

    nothing is posting…

  100. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb, go have a whole bunch of drinks then, if it will fix your broken sensory perceptors. Can’t you see that your little opinions (more like a conspiracy theory really, a whole bunch of dubious allegations against liberals supported by little more than shcb’s admittedly disturbed mind) are creating a FALSE chasm in your world where people are either with you or against you? Yes, have a drink if it will help you feel less disturbed, shcb.

    Where to start with shcb’s latest atrocity on lies.com?
    shcb, first you stereotype then you attribute false motives and attitudes to the group of people that you stereotype. In school we learned that this is called creating a scapegoat.

    With the Michael Moore liberal scapegoats on the defensive (in your mind only), you can pompously romp around in your make believe world of evil, pretending that all the killing in your name is for the best. Thankfully the false motives and false attitudes you accuse others of having is transparent.

  101. knarlyknight Says:

    …is a transparent attempt to scapegoat.

  102. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb,
    You accuse:
    They love this country for what it is and what it means to so many around the world, they just don’t like the institutions and methods it took to get here and stay here.
    Wrong. We used to love America because it was a country ruled by law not by men, now we are not so sure. (Yesterday I heard my first through the grapevine example of that. My neighbour said his god-brother who called him from a US city because he was at wits end because he and his best friend were taken in for questioning by department of homeland security, and although he was released after a few days his friend – an American pharmacist of Lebanese ancestry – was still being held after 20 days with no charges and no communication with anyone else. While they were detained together the pharmacist told his friend that they were asking him all kinds of questions about people he had never heard about and that they were threatening that if he did not provide them with details they would send him away to Guantanamo for further questioning. Twenty days and the pharmacist has not returned.) So, the institutions – military, justice, media, congress, etc. – are fine, the complaints you hear from a wide variety of people are about an apparent hijacking of the institutions for the betterment of a select group (usually the group that Bush calls his support base.) And an over-haul of the Bill of Rights in a few short years in the name of terrorism (e.g. the unPatriot Act 1 and 2) and the use of signing statements that warp legislation from its original intent.

    You accuse: They don’t particularly like capitalism, but they like the standard of living it gives them. Wrong. You are hallucinating to think that applies to them. Most people would agree capitalism is good, within limits. That is because capitalism comes in many forms, and spans a spectrum from Adam Smith to even highly regulated economies. Do you support a capitalism where corporations are free to adopt lowest cost manufacturing techniques, even if such techniques kill every living thing in the rivers, creeks and forests for miles around and poison the workers and neighbouring communities (question mark) If not, then I can accuse you of not particularly liking capitalism too.

    You accuse:They don’t like corporations, but most of them work for one, they don’t like rich people but would love to be one. Wrong. Again, you seem unable to discern anything other than black and white. Corporations are a fine way to organise work, the two things most people object to are: first, that most all corporations exist solely to earn profit for shareholders and there is virtually no secondary considerations in their decision making (lack any social or environmental consciousness) – hence the need for effective regulators; and, second that there is incredibly enormous widening of the gap between rich and the middle class workers, to ignore for a moment the light of the poor. Executives 50 years ago earned something like 4 times more that the annual earnings of their employees, that figure is now around 50 times more with plenty of examples of executives or board members earning in the hundreds or thousands of times more than the wages of the employees in the companies that they employ. As for not liking rich people, most poor people rarely get to see rich people except on TV (exception being domestic servants) because rich people in the USA are scared of the poor people and have isolated themselves in gated communities.

    They just aren’t very practical when it comes to the tradeoffs in life. They would love for this country to be what it is without the things they don’t like, but then it wouldn’t be America, it would just be another European nation. Wrong. What is practical is only limited by the size of your brain, your ability to imagine, and your willingness to do what it takes to achieve your objectives. It does not take a genius to break things and kill people, although it does sap a lot of a countrys energy. I am sure that most of the wide variety of people you have been slandering with your accusations also are practical enough to realize that they will have to live with most of the things that they do not like, what they object to is when those necessary evil things become so huge that they start to seriously push out other aspects of life. Military spending is an example, but I know you have your statistics to show that not much has changed in that respect – despite the obvious growing overwhelming superiority of American military might compared to virtually every other nation. Measures that invade personal privacy is another example . You get the idea. Also, from what I hear, England, France, Germany, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, etc. are pretty fine places to live and have been for quite some time. America could do worse than to emulate a few of the successful ideas that these countries have adopted. Maybe America could lower its infant mortality rate, etc.

  103. knarlyknight Says:

    Also, shcb says:

    As far as I can tell there have only been two high profile atrocities in this war so far that have had merit, and justice has been served in both cases.

    Well, like the rest of you Americans, what you do not look for you will not find. Wilful ignorance is no excuse. Dahr Jamail and Riverbend blogs have been reporting horrific and deteriorating conditions for years. You will call them unreliable and biased, but to read their accounts from day one you can not deny the authenticity and honesty of their accounts. So then you will call them misinformed and misled, if you have not wilfully ignored them due to their lack of mainstream American news credentials. Whatever, by any reasonable measure 80 or 90 percent if not 100% of what they report is true, but even if only 10% is true it is still an indictment of the American incursion into Iraq in terms of what it has done to the people who were supposed to be saved from their evil dictator.

    http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/

    Riverbend (first blog entry is at the bottom):
    http://www.riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2003_08_01_riverbendblog_archive.html

  104. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb says that he thinks justice has been served…
    Justice served for extensive Abu Ghraib crimes? The army might as well be claiming that no-one was guilty of anything and that there was nothing wrong in the way people were treated in that prison:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/01/AR2007090101077.html

  105. knarlyknight Says:

    Long way to go yet before determining if justice is served for the Haditha massacre:
    http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/08/31/news/top_stories/22_15_158_30_07.txt

  106. knarlyknight Says:

    And slightly off topic, here is a different opinion on whether the Iraq mission is morally just (the reference to slavery in building Iraq embassy is that the foreign workers claim they were promised higher wages for different work, even for work in a different country than Iraq, but wound up there against their wishes):
    http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m35876&hd=&size=1&l=e

  107. knarlyknight Says:

    A different opinion on whether the Iraq mission is morally just (the reference to slavery in building Iraq embassy is that the foreign workers claim they were promised higher wages for different work, even for work in a different country than Iraq, but wound up there against their wishes):

    (Tried to post this link without separating it, it would not work.)
    www dot uruknet dot info/?p=m35876&hd=&size=1&l=e

  108. shcb Says:

    Thanks Knarly, I think that pretty well makes my point. Two small corrections, all those European nations you mentioned, they would be Jew free German speaking countries without the United States military might and our willingness to use it.

    The infant mortality rate, do some research on that and what I think you will find is that is one of those lies, damned lies and statistic things Mark Twain was talking about. One of the reasons the US infant mortality rate is higher than some other countries is that in many countries with socialized medicine resources are such that monies simply can’t be used for statistically lost causes. Babies with certain illnesses are simply allowed to die in the first few minutes of life rather than risk the high cost and the ongoing cost to society. Also in some countries a baby is considered still born if it dies in the first few days of life. In America it is considered a live birth if the baby is alive even for a few minutes before it dies.

  109. knarlyknight Says:

    You’re welcome. I knew you’d see it that way, being blind to colours other than black and white, but there it is. Hadn’t heard infant mortality stats were faulty, it was just the most obvious. USA in WWII were invited if I recall, I think they thanked you already.

  110. shcb Says:

    Knarly,

    The stats aren’t really wrong and I wasn’t really picking on you, I was just pointing out that many times proponents on both sides (yours more than mine, since righties tend to be more number oriented) use misleading numbers and it is a good idea to see where they get the numbers. Your assertion may still be correct, but the numbers used in this case are tainted. Another place you will see this is the assertion that “you are more likely to be killed by your own firearm in your home than an intruder” this is also accompanied by stats showing thousands killed by firearms kept in the home for self protection. They come up with these numbers by including suicide. A few years ago they came out with a stat saying there were so many thousand kids killed by firearms, giving the impression that these were crumb crunchers that had found dad’s .38 in the night stand. In reality there are somewhere between 20 and 60 such deaths each year. To get the thousands you had to include all gun related deaths of “children” up to 19 tears old including crime and gang related deaths. To put it into perspective, 200 kids die in swimming pools every year.

  111. knarlyknight Says:

    Ban swimming pools.

  112. enkidu Says:

    I love the jujitsu shbc uses when he confronts data that does not fit his “Conservatives are teh best!” black n white mind set. No need to respond, just say the other guy proves your point for you.

    So refreshing!

  113. knarlyknight Says:

    sssshhhhhhh! (he thinks he’s “winning”…)

    By the way, I did prove his point. He just uses stupid words to describe it. He says, “good guys”, “bad guys”, “elevate the bad guys”, “bring down the good guys”, etc. and using that 4th grade language one cannot see the people as real people with conflicting loyalties and conflicting thoughts and conflicting motives. In Iraq, you got tribal values, religious values and family values far higher in importance than any concept of state or nation. That the invaders were ignorant of this before, during and after their “victory” is in large part why “victory” is slipping further and further away as time goes on. All I was trying to do was show that if you can see your opponents as regular people with at least as many paradoxes and conflicting loyalties as you have, then you are seeing the real world. If shcb thinks that means elevating the opponents and being a little more humble about your side, that’s his problem.

    However, seeing the real world is usually a prerequisite to being successful. Viewing the world in strict black/white i.e. good/evil or “good guys / bad guys” constructs simplifies things to the point of elementary school. So you pit an elementary school mentality against a panoply of peoples located in the region you are (are not?) trying to occupy, and guess where the smart money places their bets?

    Luckily, I got no dog in this fight except the price of fuel, which translates to far higher costs for my Mexican tomatoes and Californian oranges, etc. etc. etc. … actually, since that is so I guess everyone has an interest in a successful resolution.

    Cheney’s “the war that will not end in our lifetimes” is not what I would call a successful resolution, but it appears to be quite satisfactory to those making and selling the armaments and to the people who think in “good vs. evil” cartoon paradigms.

    So if I’ve proven shcb’s point, it is only because he does not have the language capacity to see the reality.

  114. enkidu Says:

    posts don’t seem to go thru

  115. enkidu Says:

    LB
    YES or NO on my challenge?
    if I can prove I used moran previously in satire, then u leave lies.com 4ever (give me 3 days to search)

    If I can’t I will never post here again

  116. knarlyknight Says:

    Enkidu,
    LB will just register under a different name. Why do you want him to leave – he just makes a total idiot out of himself with his juvenile attempts to bully and insult people? Leftbehind’s insulting posts show him to be a ridiculous jerk, which simply discredits anything else he says and enhances the aura of those who ignore and persevere despite leftbehind’s attempts to hijack the discussions or his rude and humorless attempts to mock others.

    On another topic, the new Zogby International poll shows that 51% of Americans want Congress to probe Bush and Cheney regarding 9/11, and 67% fault the 9/11 Commission for failing to investigate the collapse of World Trade Center 7.

    More details here:
    http://www.911blogger.com/node/11115

  117. TeacherVet Says:

    Knarly, considering the recent gay-baiting frenzy over Larry Craig, are you sure your want to encourage the Democrat-controlled congress to “probe” Bush and Cheney?

  118. TeacherVet Says:

    Also, are you still counting words in the moron/moran debate? Inky seems to be narrowing the gap.

  119. knarlyknight Says:

    Haha you are so funny. So that’s what the official GOP talking point memo says about Larry Craig, he was “gay baited”? If that is what you want to call a republican senator playing footsies for gay sex in a public washroom, fine. Just don’t expect anyone other than your fellow morans to be fooled. The rest of us knows it for what it was: lewd behaviour. And yes, “probe”, “impeach”, “investigate”, Bush and Cheney – whatever it takes to get a real investigation into 9/11. In any event all that was a nice deflection from my previous post:

    knarlyknight Says:
    September 6th, 2007 at 11:22 am
    Enkidu,
    LB will just register under a different name. Why do you want him to leave – he just makes a total idiot out of himself with his juvenile attempts to bully and insult people? Leftbehind’s insulting posts show him to be a ridiculous jerk, which simply discredits anything else he says and enhances the aura of those who ignore and persevere despite leftbehind’s attempts to hijack the discussions or his rude and humorless attempts to mock others.
    On another topic, the new Zogby International poll shows that 51% of Americans want Congress to probe Bush and Cheney regarding 9/11, and 67% fault the 9/11 Commission for failing to investigate the collapse of World Trade Center 7.
    More details here:
    http://www.911blogger.com/node/11115

  120. TeacherVet Says:

    Gay sex is lewd behavior? Thanks for the clarification. I can see why you’re so intent on supporting Inky’s gay-bashing of LB.

  121. enkidu Says:

    The cops received numerous complaints of loud sex in the men’s room.
    They sent an undercover/plain clothes officer to see what was going on. Of the 35 or so men arrested, the vast majority used the same foot tapping/stroking, freaky hand gestures under the stall and furtive hand gestures before he went in (probably a ‘jerking off’ motion). I would wager all of the accused men also claimed they were set up or entrapped or whatever (Officer Crumpky is just to hunky!)

    I could care less if Larry Craig is gay. I do care that he has made a career out of gay baiting and legislating against gay rights. Then turns out to be a closet gay man and can’t own up to his teh gai side. You can’t loudly proclaim you think gays are inferior citizens and then turn around and have anonymous sex with men in the airport restroom without the general public thinking this is hypocritical. Other than the GOOPerz like my good friend leftymcfrootloop and mr treasonous veterinarian. Or do we have to play Larry’s Clinton quote over and over until reality sinks in? LC: Clinton is “A Nasty, Bad Naughty Boy!”

    But reality never intrudes too deeply in the wingnut world: believing just makes it so (if ya pray real hard).

    He plead guilty. He was convicted, now he wants a do over (the law, not the restroom). Say mr veterinarian, you claim to be a wise old black man, are you also gay? Is this a requirement for all GOOPerz now? To quote Jerry “not that there’s anything wrong with that!”

  122. enkidu Says:

    Come on lefty take me up on my offer!

    If I can’t prove I used “moran” with intent to satire (give me 3 days after your acceptance), then I won’t post here ever again.

    If I can prove I did use it previously in a satirical manner, then you won’t post here ever again (one less rwnj)

  123. TeacherVet Says:

    How’s the word count progressing, Knarly?

  124. knarlyknight Says:

    I count six words strung together in a totally stupid manner in the previous post.

  125. leftbehind Says:

    So you’re that desperate to get rid of me, Inky? God, I knew you were weak, but I never thought that I could break you this easily.

    Look, I’m sorry I called you out on the moron thing. it was unfair that I called you on it when I obviously don’t spell it correctly all the time myself. Just the other day, I screwed up and spelled moron E-n-k-i-d-o instead of E-n-k-i-d-u. How embarrassing.

    Speaking of embarrassment, I can’t believe any adult, much less a fighter pilot with children, could seriously get his feelings hurt as badly as you have over this “moron” thing. I guess there are very few of us who could spend a childhood raised by “genocidal racists” and not have emotional scars.

  126. enkidu Says:

    so take me up on my bet feltchmonkey

  127. leftbehind Says:

    Why should I, assmunch?

  128. leftbehind Says:

    This is the part where you’re supposed to call me a fartknocker.

  129. leftbehind Says:

    Or some other similarly full-bodied retort

  130. leftbehind Says:

    …or maybe, since I’ve cast such doubt on your standing as a linguist with this “moron” thing, you could display your vast knowledge of the language by explaining, for the culturally deprived among us, what as “feltchmonkey” is.

  131. leftbehind Says:

    uh…oh, I meant “a Feltchmonkey,” not “as feltchmonkey.” Inky, you explain things to the folks while I go back and a prowl the archives for evidence I can use “a” correctly…

  132. leftbehind Says:

    See if you can stall ‘em for three days or so…

  133. leftbehind Says:

    This entire ordeal points out a very serious problem with Inky’s prose that I have noted several times: it suffers from Jessica Simpson Syndrome. It’s so cute that you can’t tell what it’s trying to say. Pithy references to “snarky” inside jokes are only effective if everyone knows what you’re talking about. Making excessive use of words you made up yourself (what’s a “gooper” to anyone who hasn’t haunted this place for months on end?) is a bad idea too, unless you’re James Joyce. And what’s with this TM, circle R thing, which was kind of cute months ago, but which has now become so excessive and out of hand? Nowadays, it seems like there are more nonsense symbols in some of his words than there are letters. Maybe if he would work to improve the clarity and articulation of his prose, he would get a better reaction from others in class, and feel less put-upon and combative. Maybe if he had just spelled “moron” correctly in the first place, he wouldn’t feel so compelled to spend three days that he could spend building fake trees in the backyard with his kids wading through the archive trying to prove that he can, in fact, spell “moron” correctly. This is partly what I have against the whole home schooling thing – and not just when it is practiced by “genocidal” racists. Had Inky gone to a good public school, he would have been more likely to have encountered these issues long before I brought them up here, and would probably have grown up a lot less suspicious of gays and blacks.

  134. enkidu Says:

    sorry FM, I can’t post every 5 to 10 minutes like you do
    see I have this thing called a life

    YES
    or
    NO

  135. leftbehind Says:

    Nobody ever said you didn’t have life – and what an exciting life it must be.

    You still haven’t answered my question, AM-why should I take you up on this little deal of yours? It’s fairly obvious why you want me gone – you’re a pussy and you can’t handle me. What’s in it for me, though? You gone from this blog? Why do I want that, again? Because I’m intimidated by your razor wit and movie star charm? Get crucial. You’re too easy a target to want gone, and even if you did leave, you’d just sneak back in under yet another screen name. C’mon, FALWB, you can certainly come up with a better bargain than this lame shit. Sweeten the pot for me, DS – offer me something I might really want and I’ll consider your offer. Otherwise fuck off and go learn how to spell.

  136. leftbehind Says:

    And don’t come back with any more of your crappy ultimatums. If you’re going to talk business with me, talk business like a man, lay down some real terms and quit trying to call me a porch monkey, you cracker-ass peckerwood.

  137. enkidu Says:

    wow – for a wise old gay black man you sure love to sling the anti-gay slurs and racist bullshit. Let me spell it out for you oh ye-of-the-santorum-flecked-beard: google. If I wanted to use your words like “porch monkey” I would. Feltchmonkey combines two words that describe you to a ‘t’. And the monkey bit is an evolutionary insult: we evolved from apes, while Rethugs like you must have evolved from monkeys.

    Ultimatum? It’s a deal that I would honor, tho I am sure you would not (being completely lacking in honor, honesty, common sense etc)

    But I’ll ask yet again, YES you will take up my little wager, or NO you are a feltchmonkey who spouts a ton of racist and homophobe bile mixed in with nonsense and stupidity.

    Judging by the ‘quality’ of your discourse, I am thinking you are a pretty solid NO. However, I would love it if you didn’t waste my time skipping your diatribe filled posts in the future. Please take me up on my deal, as I can’t be entirely certain I have used the word “moran” previously with intent to satire. Ya never know… ;-)

  138. leftbehind Says:

    is this on?

  139. Foster Says:

    Why is it that the longest threads on this blog are always the most idiotic? This was a good discussion, before you two morons (M-O-R-O-N-S) screwed it up. I wish you’d both leave.

  140. leftbehind Says:

    Uh, oh…he’s on to us.

  141. Foster Says:

    If this blog were actually moderated, you and “Bugsy Moran” would have both been kicked off a long time ago.

  142. leftbehind Says:

    Oh, to be certain. Inky and I together are the cause of far more disruption than we could ever be worth. He’s descended from apes, you know. I wonder if that’s why his spelling is so wack.
    Inky, I notice you spell the world “the” wrong a lot. Is that an airforce thing, or is that intended as satire, too?

  143. leftbehind Says:

    Speaking of apes: While I’ve always figured that you were simian on some level, I’m still puzzled about your description of your father. I know that primates tend to be somewhat high strung, but don’t you think “genocidal” is being a bit harsh?

  144. jbc Says:

    Actual misspellings I use with my friends as a joke:

    * teh in place of the
    * “the internets” (or “the intarnets”) in place of “the internet”
    * “loose” in place of “lose”

    Hm. Can’t think of any others, but I bet there are more. Welcome to the future! No flying cars, but we do get creative misspellings as quasi-humor.

  145. leftbehind Says:

    Yes, I have noticed that Inky and yourself do have similar ticks in your writing, and that both do the “Republican TM” bit and that his “McFruitloop” is not unlike your “McFucktard” from a few months ago. He should really pay you for all the timely rescues.

  146. enkidu Says:

    FM/leftymcfrootloopy (you mizspelt that btw)

    you are the only person in this thread using the term “genocidal”
    you are the only person spewing racist bullshit
    you are the only person blabbering anti-gay crap
    you are the only person who doesn’t think you are a fool

    and a moran

    a simple YES or NO please

  147. leftbehind Says:

    How can you spell Mcfruitloop wrong? It’s not even a real word.

  148. leftbehind Says:

    So you’re denying you ever used the term “genocidal” to describe your father and his friends, anywhere in the history of this blog? Would you go away and quit posting if I pulled at least one quote from the archive of you doing just that?

    Are you also denying that you have ever, anywhere in the history of this blog, posted a post that implied that you are some sort of pilot for a government agency? Would you go away and quit posting if I pulled the exact quote where you do just that?

    Would you stop posting if I pulled a very recent quote where you used the epithet “queer” in a way in which any reasonable person would consider “anti-gay” crap?

  149. knarlyknight Says:

    Hey Leftbemoran,
    I haven’t seen the movie (or any of his others for that matter( but you’ll get a chuckle out of this:

    The National Expositor wanted to see what would happen if we sent someone with no prior exposure to the truth movement to review an Alex Jones film. We contacted a pro-Bush, mainstream couple and sent them to the premier of Alex Jones’ new film “End Game.” Could “End Game” be the film that finally wakes people up? Erin Alfaro, patriotic American housewife and mother, let’s us know if her paradigm has changed with her review of the film below.
    continued…

    http://www.nationalexpositor.com/News/345.html

  150. leftbehind Says:

    Funny stuff, but the “Democrats Abandon the Party for Ron Paul ” page is a lot funnier.

  151. enkidu Says:

    look mr moran, either agree to the deal or not

    so let me see, I state “you are the only person in this thread using the term “genocidal” ” That is the truth. It must really hurt a wise old gay black man to realize your party would gladly see you lynched huh? But I am sure you bookmarked my schooling your sorry ass back in 2005 and again in 2006. And I stand by my previous assessment: many Republicans are genocidal racists. I didn’t say my father was, tho you love to conflate the two statements. My father likes to rip a few racist jokes. Shameful but wtf, he’s not genocidal (having refused a job with the army bioweapons lab way back when). However, you can’t deny the Hate Boat (that rwnj crazy cruise put on by the The National Review), you can’t deny Rethug Presidential candidate Tom Tancredo saying he wanted to nuke Mecca and Medina – maybe pre-emptively yeeeehaw! I could go on and on and on… yours is the party of anger and psychosis, live with that o wise old gay black man.

    So you are going to dig up me calling Mark Foley a pedophile or something?
    Maybe saying Larry Craig is a sick gay man deep in denial?
    bfd
    I searched for “queer” “enkidu” and site:lies.com and only came up with your anti-gay ravings… can you try to up your meds and give us something without all the crazy?

    I never said I was a pilot mr moran. You read way too much into things. But if I agree to show jbc a shot of each of my kids in a flight helmet sitting in a F4, and he can verify these images, will you kindly go… the.. fuck… away? as in please fuck off?

    And finally Mr Keyes, congratulations on announcing your candidacy! I can see why you post so often at lies.com and we will help carry your message of psycho babble, jingositic bullshit and craptacularly nonsensical postings to the far corners of the Intertubes. So, are you officially out of the closet like Rudy?

    Now seriously, go fuck yourself (just quoting dear vice-mis-leader Cheney)
    ;-)

  152. Foster Says:

    I think you really need to as well. You and your buddy Leftbehind have, once again, turned a pretty good discussion into a travesty. The way you set each other up for punch lines, I’d almost bet you two are the same person logging in under two different names. If not, you guys need to find an airport restroom and go fuck each other in private. The rest of us are sick of you both. You fools are the reason I have almost never posted on this blog, although I bet I have ten times as much to say, and can spell nearly all of it correctly.

    This is simply an amazing blog. Nowhere else on the net have I visited any ostensibly Liberal blog where any thread has devolved to this level of implied racism and blatant homophobia and no one – not even the supposed moderator – has raised any objection whatsoever, except to defend some jack-off’s misspelling of the word “the.” You deserve these clowns, JBC, and I really hope you enjoy their company as they, along with that 911 truth clown, have run away with this blog.

    Farewell, fuckers. I’m off to the Dailykos.

  153. leftbehind Says:

    If you’re not a pilot, or some kind of airstrip employee, how would your kids get in an F4 in the first place?

    Foster’s right, by the way. Ink and I rule this fucking blog.

  154. leftbehind Says:

    Or at least I do. I think his last post was lame, considering he gave himself five days to collect his thoughts.

  155. leftbehind Says:

    JBC – There’s a problem with the log-in. I’m able to log in as Leftbehind and Knarlyknight okay, but when I try to log in as Enkidu my password, “Scootles,” won’t work. Would changing the password help, or is the profile wacked?

  156. enkidu Says:

    lol, welcome back Sir Sockpuppet… funny how ‘Foster’ popped in the moment you thought you couldn’t post anything… when this thread was far off the front page… when you still can’t stay even remotely sane enough to answer a simple YES or NO question

    I just don’t have the time to post the huge volume of written and copy/pasted stuff that knarly flings out.

    So, feltchmonkey, did you go down to Jena and scream your racist bs at the marchers? loudly declare yourself a proud gay old black Rethug and hurl the usual anti-Enk-style screed?

    We missed your crazy crazy… wait who am I kidding! please fuck off and go away, like, forever. Sincerely, Enk

  157. leftbehind Says:

    When did I ever think I couldn’t post here, Lamebrain? If there’s room for your homophobic shit on this blog, there’s more than enough room for anything I have to say. And you can leave Jena out of this, Cracker – that’s about my people, not yours. If it hadn’t been for white loudmouths such as yourself, there would have been no problems and no little white boys would have gotten beaten up in the first place. Maybe if I were to go to Jena, I could hook up with your Dad and his racist Republican pals. Weren’t they down there for some counter protest of some sort? I doubt the sturdy, true white men of Fagbash could let this little fracas slip away quietly.

    You don’t believe I’m black? Why not? Because I don’t conform to your stereotypes of how a black man’s supposed to think? Do I fly too far in the face of what your genocidal, racist father told you about black folks? How can I prove to you that I am black? Post a video on Youtube myself tapdancing? Should I come over to the compound and sing the blues for you? Are you going to ask me a few questions and evaluate whether or not my answers are black enough? Since when does anyone exist to re-enforce your small-minded notions of how other races are supposed to behave. Your understanding of African Americans is almost as pathetic as your understanding of homosexuality – and by that, I mean the psychology of homosexuality, as I’m sure your knowledge of the physical mechanics of it might just exceed my own.

    It’s funny that you feel the need to protest that you are not Knarlyknight, even though no one here, including myself, has ever accused you of being Knarlyknight. This is an interesting propostion, and certainly gives a lot of the lame shit you two (?) post a certain Freudian edge that makes it much more interesting than it would at first seem. If you are, in fact, Knarlyknight, you should stay Knarlyknight full-time, as that facet of your personality is by far the most interesting and definately intelligent of your two(?) personae.

    It would be even more interesting to think of all of us here are different facets of one personality. Short of that, let me throw a monkeywrench into the works, here. You accuse Foster of being my sockpuppet, but what if I am his? What if I am a sockpuppet of someone else around here, someone who usually agrees with your politics, but thinks you’re an asshole and deserves to be baited? What if I am a sockpuppet of someone who is very serious about this blog and what is discussed here, and has found the best way to keep your blustering ass out of everyone else’s way on the serious threads is to sacrifice a thread which has already run its course to yet another bullshit argument between you and “Leftbehind.” Why do you think it is “Leftbehind” almost never addresses anyone but you and Knarlyknight? Why is it that “Leftbehind” does his best to keep you pre-occupied on older, dead threads when you should be knocking ‘em dead on the newer threads?

    Think about it. Don’t you notice some obvious simularities between “Leftbehind’s” prose and someone else’s? There’s no way both of you could be dense enough not to notice that…

  158. leftbehind Says:

    …but I don’t know, you do have a hard time with subtle concepts, such as race and issues of sexual preference. Is it that you really don’t think I’m black, or is it just than I’m not black enough? Would it make you more comfortable if I changed my log-in to “La Eftbehind?” Would that make me black enough for you? Maybe I could start writing my posts in rhyme, or in that “sizzle-nizzle” language Snoop Dogg speaks. I’d consider posting in Ebonics, but I’m afraid you would be the only one here who would understand it. Like ‘at.

  159. enkidu Says:

    o rly?!

  160. leftbehind Says:

    Yes, really. As a self-appointed authority on “teh black,” who can magically discern the race and sexual preferences of other people, simply by the way they type (“he can’t be gay, he doesn’t dot his ‘i’s with those little hearts”) I would expect that you are fluent in ebonics, can tap dance, and probably sing a mean spiritual, too.

  161. leftbehind Says:

    OMG!!! There’s link on this very page to Loveandpride.com, the internet’s Premier Gay Online Shopping Destination. And there’s also a link to something called “the-gay-quiz.com.” Things are getting delightfully colorful around these parts all of the sudden…

  162. leftbehind Says:

    Oh, but they’re only google ads, and will probably be gone by the time Inky takes the next week or so to formulate a two word response. Sigh.

  163. enkidu Says:

    http://www.columbian.com/news/localNews/2007/10/10302007_Police-report-sheds-new-light-on-Curtis-encounter.cfm

    Yet another closeted Rethug hypocrit, waving his dick, er I mean BIBLE (see comment #7) and lecturing others. Are all Rethuggles™®© closeted angry fucktards like you loopy? Maybe this freak and Larry Craig can move to a liberal state and get married.

    Un-fucking-believable

  164. leftbehind Says:

    Gosh, Inky, you’re right. Homosexuals ARE freaks. How wrong it would be for anyone to defend any sexual expression that falls outside the narrow imagination of a Social Conservative such as yourself. It’s shocking what goes on between consenting adults nowadays, isn’t it? And in a hotel, for Chrissakes – is nothing sacred? I hear they even mix the races, now.

  165. leftbehind Says:

    Give me five minutes and I can find an article a minute about a heterosexual doing something equally as disturbing as anything that happened in that video store, and I’ll have a lot more material to choose from, since there are more of you breeders than there are of us – unless it’s that whole “butt sex” angle that gets you and your Dad so flustered. I’ll take issue with their choice of venue, granted – I’ll not defend anyone’s right to have sex in a public place – but outside of that, I fail to see how consentual gay sex, which pretty much everyone in the world has come to terms with besides you and the Westboro Baptist Church, consitutes “sick” behavior. Maybe you and the Fagbash Purity League can thumb through the scriptures together and enlighten us.

    And what do you mean, “closeted?” Obviously, this guy wasn’t closeted, or he wouldn’t be having sex with a guy in a video store. Am I closeted? Or do you just not believe I’m gay, either? What do you want me to do, jump through the your modem and fuck you in the ass while I sing “Ain’t No Grave Gonna Hold My Body Down,” thus simultaneously proving my homosexuality and my blackness?

    What is it with you and this gay sex thing, anyway? This seems to be a real sore spot with you nowadays. As far as I know (or at least I had assumed until recently) I am the only gay poster on this blog, and even I don’t bring up gay sex as much as you do. Come to think of it, I’ll bet every time I do bring homosexuality, it’s in response to some interjection of it into the discussion by you. Tell us, Deary, at what part of a discussion regarding a mine rescue did you first find your mind drifting off towards the topic of man-on-man sex? Was it the thought of all those rescuers down there, all hot and sweaty in that mine together, their muscles rippling as they dig into the Earth, sweat oozing from their well-defined bodies? No women for miles…

  166. leftbehind Says:

    By all means, take your usual ten days to answer. Go rent some videos and think about it.

  167. leftbehind Says:

    Wow, he sure is taking a long time at that video store. He must have bumped into a friend.

  168. leftbehind Says:

    You guys did know that’s a two day rental, right?

  169. leftbehind Says:

    C’mon, Inky – the rest of us can’t rent “Boys In the Sand” until you return it.

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