Libby Will Do No Jail Time

Judith Miller sat in jail for 85 doing what she felt was right: protecting the identity of a confidential source. She was released only after her source, Scooter Libby, finally consented to her letting him name him. Libby was subsequently found guilty of perjury, obstruction of justice, and making false statements (under oath) and sentenced to 30 months for his crimes, but he won’t be spending one day in Jail, because President Bush commuted his sentence for being “excessive

Where was Bush’s rubber stamp when Miller was in Jail? And if 30 months is too excessive for Libby’s crimes, how about serving 85 days he took away from Miller because he wasn’t man enough to step up and admit what he had done?

66 Responses to “Libby Will Do No Jail Time”

  1. enkidu Says:

    Paris Hilton did more hard time for driving without a license.
    Scooter lied and obstructed a federal investigation. He will be hailed as a true Rethuggle® PatrIdiot® in the Ollie North mold.

    So outing a covert agent (who worked on WMDs/nuclear proliferation) is AOK by the Rule of Law preznit. What a sad disgrace. It will take decades to undo the damage these criminals have inflicted upon America and the world. Heck of a job bushie!

  2. Steve Says:

    This is one of the least of the crimes committed by the administration (warrantless wiretaps, torture, signing statements, etc…), but it’s one of the easiest to understand.

    The elite in this country thinks it’s above the law.

    It’s time to knock them down a few pegs.

    It’s time to get angrier.

  3. jbc Says:

    I like Joe Wilson’s take on this: Fitzgerald (and the judge) were sending Libby to prison to put pressure on him, because to this day Libby persists in protecting Cheney by keeping silent about what really happened with the Plame outing. So Bush commuted the sentence before Libby did a single day of jail time, because that was what was needed to keep Libby quiet. In effect, Bush is now an accomplice to Libby’s obstruction of justice felony.

  4. shcb Says:

    Joe Wilson wouldn’t know the truth if it snuck up behind him and took a chunk out of his posterior. A few items, Plame’s name was in Novak’s column 14 July, 2003. Armitage called Powell and told him he was the leak on 1 October, 2003. Fitzgerald wasn’t appointed until 30 Dec. What is unclear is whether State told Justice Armitage was the leak. But in any case it didn’t really matter since Plame wasn’t eligible for protection under the Intelligence Identity Act. So there was never really a case because a crime was never committed. However, everyone put the cart before the horse and started investigating and covering their behinds before it was determined if a crime had even been committed. By the time they figured there was no crime, they had all started doing whatever they do in these situations and couldn’t stop without embarrassing themselves. Vanity has a price.

    The best I can figure is Fitzgerald was hoping there was more than 1 leak, and he could find a way to make Plame covert. She had been covert in the past and worked with people that were covert, he hoped he could tie that all together. But since no charges were ever filled against anyone for violating the IIA one can assume he could never make that connection. Since Armatage and Wilson were both outspoken against the war in Iraq, he didn’t want to go after them, he wanted someone higher, preferably the VP or the Pres. So he pressured Judith Miller and Libby. Neither gave him anything, because quite frankly, there was nothing else there to give. By now he was invested in this case to the tune of a couple years and couldn’t really stop,that vanity thing again, he had to find someone to put behind bars. Especially since it had been found someone knew who the leak of the non-covert agent was before the investigation even started. (would that make it a non-leak?) so he went for Libby, since Miller had been a bust. And the best he could come up with was Libby’s faulty recollection of things he had said a year or two earlier.

    If ever there was a need for a pardon, this is it. Thank god the Federalists won over the Anti-Federalists on unlimited pardoning power of the President, if congress were to be involved in this case, Libby would be in jail for a crime that was never even committed.

  5. hossman Says:

    Crime, no crime … conspiracy, no conspiracy … I don’t know and I’ll probably never and frankly, I don’t really care that much.

    What I do know is that Miller was standing up for the strongest principle in journalism: protecting her source, so she sat in Jail. Libby could have gotten her out, just by calling her and saying “you can name me.” Everyday for 85 days he woke up and went about his day while she sat in jail protecting him.

    Whatever crimes he may or may not have committed, he had the power to set free a woman imprisoned for protecting his anonymity, and for 85 days he didn’t do it. It would have been nice to see him sit in jail for 84 days before Bush decided to Commute his sentence, that’s all I’m saying.

  6. shcb Says:

    As I recall, and it is just a recollection, is that Libby said he didn’t know he was the source she was protecting, because he had given her permission verbally when she talked to him, so he thought she was protecting someone else. I may be thinking of Armatage it was a long time ago. Or he may be lying, in which case you have a point. I think you could make the same or even better point about Fitzgerald. Miller didn’t go to jail until 29 Sept 2005, by then it should have been obvious Plame wasn’t covert so there was no real reason for an investigation and yet Fitzgerald put her in jail. Thoughts?

  7. NorthernLite Says:

    “Joe Wilson wouldn’t know the truth if it…”

    Didn’t this whole mess start when Joe Wilson was actually speaking the truth about the Niger uranium claim? Judging by the facts that we now know for sure, I will take Wilson’s claims over this lying, deceitful administration any day.

    You need to try to keep things in perspective here. Senior administration officials purposely outted a covert CIA agent in order to suppress dissent over their policies. Kind of sounds like something the admin’s of Syria or North Korea would do, doesn’t it?

    A serious breach of national security has taken place by your country’s leadership. If that doesn’t bother you, we have a problem.

  8. shcb Says:

    When Joe Wilson gave his briefing to CIA agents on his return from Niger, he said there was evidence Sadam was ATTEMPTING to buy yellow cake. When he wrote his book he said just the opposite.

    His wife was not covert, she drove her car to Langly every day, she was on the cover of Vanity Fair, covert agents don’t go to Langly. If it were such a breach, why aren’t you going after Armatage and Powell with the same vigor, they have admitted the leak (non-leak?) came from State.

  9. shcb Says:

    One other thing, if memory serves me correctly, I don’t think Joe got approval from the CIA before he wrote his book, as required. Breach of security?

  10. enkidu Says:

    Joe Wilson said that the charge was that Iraq was trying to buy yellow cake. He showed this to be demonstrably false (say, by the way rwnj, how IS that investigation into the forged Italian/Niger doc going? *crickets* it was a fraud just like the doc and bushco)

    Wilson wrote an op ed in a major newspaper (no, not NEWZMAXXX!!!1!) saying so. And then the smears began. The illegal outing of a covert operative working on non-proliferation as political payback? (middle east counter-proliferation, say Iran? hey it’s a two-fer! Rethuggles® get rid of a non-bush-bot who won’t lie about Iran’s nukes! high fives)

    She was a covert agent. She appeared on the cover of Vanity Fair long after the rightwing slime machine ruined her career by outing her. You can believe ‘facts’ that are lies but it doesn’t make them facts.

    Your timelines and other ‘facts’ are so ridiculously out of true with the basic reality of the situation as to be laughable. Fitz (a life long Rethugglican® btw) was a bush appointee, same w judge, the investigation was started because it’s the LAW.

    I say impeachment is back on the table. Big Dick first, then lil bushie.

    We threw out a crazy king george 231 years ago. Time to do it again.

  11. NorthernLite Says:

    Thanks for setting shcb’s story straight, enkidu. Now I remember why I stopped trying to have discussions with him…

    Seriously, he honestly believes that a covert CIA agent was on the cover of Vanity Fair. Wow.

  12. shcb Says:

    As you know, I don’t offer a lot of links in my comments. I prefer to read and disseminate what I read and form my own conclusions, I find that typically a person agrees with some of an article and disagrees with other parts but if all you leave your opponent with is a link you have opened yourself to the entire article. I make an exception in this case. Here is an article by Cliff May, I don’t know Cliff personally, but he was the editor of the Rocky Mountain News for several years. He is one of the most intelligent, thoughtful people I have ever listened to or read. Even though this piece is several years old it sums up Joe Wilson quite nicely. Enjoy.

  13. shcb Says:


    She wasn’t covert, that is the point, she hadn’t been covert for years.

    She went to parties and told people she worked for the CIA. Nothing wrong with that, she was an administrator, she wasn’t covert.

    Another criticism I heard from the left at the time was “well, she might not be covert but the people she works with are and outing her endangers them” if that was a concern, why show your face on a national magazine, one would assume you would use an alias in your covert activities, but your face is your face, the people dealing with your undercover agents would recognize your picture. You guys have hitched your horse to the loosing buggy on this one, sorry.

  14. shcb Says:


    You stopped having discussions with me because I whip the snot out of you everytime.

  15. NorthernLite Says:

    lmao. Sure.

    If you call sitting there writing things out of your ass without any substantial evidence “whipping” someone, then I guess you got me.

    So, were you at this party when she was telling people about her status as an agent? Was Rush Limbaugh there trying to sell drugs again? That bastard, he’s always showing up doing that.

    Show me one poll where it shows the majority of Americans agree with Fuckface’s decision to keep this guy out of jail. One, please. Then I’ll pull your horse and buggy all the way to the race track this Sunday with my bare hands.

    What’s a “loosing buggy” anyways? I don’t think I have ever pulled one of them. I want to be ready just in case you actually find a majority poll, like from or something.

  16. leftbehind Says:

    Somebody needs to interview Marc Rich about all this.

  17. shcb Says:


    That was a pretty intelligent rebuttal. Honestly, I don’t think the vast majority of Americans will even remember any of this in a month. Face it we’re in the ten percent or so who really give a hoot about most of this. So what did you think about the May piece. Do you still think ole’ Joe is such a credible guy.

    Sorry about getting the buggy before the horse there, I got a little flustered I guess.

    LB, as long as Rich brings his ex-wife and Billy C brings the beer. He can leave Hillary home though.

  18. shcb Says:

    We need to invite those Puerto Rican terrorists to our party too, nothing spices up a kegger like a bunch of murderers. So if my scorecard is right the Bush’s, Jr. and Sr. have pardoned a guy named Scooter who was going to jail for faulty memory in a case without a crime and Merle Haggard who was in jail for smoking a joint and Clinton pardoned……

  19. enkidu Says:

    I read May’s hit piece, laughed a bunch (I wonder how many of our tax dollars funded that fluffjob? there weren’t a whole lot of facts in there). I think Joe Wilson is a great deal more credible than the slime merchants at the NRO (National-socialist Rethugglican® Overlords?). Seriously, if you would even bother to read the wikipedia entry for Joe Wilson, it is clear the man has ten times the spine of the rwnj idiots who think there was no crime blah blah blah.

    There was a crime. Outting a covert operative is a crime, the law demanded an investigation, the investigation pointed directly to the VP’s chamber of horrors, scooter leaked, then lied and/or wouldn’t talk, obstructed a federal investigation and a jury of his peers found him guilty. It is called the law. Guilty. He didn’t do a single day of prison time. How many did Paris Hilton do for driving without a license? Oh, btw… Clinton? acquitted.

    Yes, lets DO talk about Marc Rich! Who was the scumbag lawyer that kept petitioning the Clinton admin for clemency/pardon? Oh yeah! Scooter Libby was Rich’s lawyer. What a bunch of uninformed misanthropic narrow minded shitstains the hardcore right wing nutjob crowd really is…

    Frankly anything that keeps you good ol boys posting in here every 20 minutes or so is time away from your usual hobbies of blowing up neonatal women’s clinics (like that moron in Detroit – ps, not an abortion clinic! you idiots can’t even shoot straight), murdering doctors, threatening judges or blowing up federal buildings. I know how badly you want to shoot folks who don’t agree with you (cuz they’re bad! Evil™®©! mb even Dummycrats!).

  20. NorthernLite Says:

    Yeah maybe you should ask Scooter about Rich. He was his lawyer for 15 years.

  21. shcb Says:


    I’m sorry, I must have sent you the wrong link, the article I read was full of details, facts, dates, sources etc. I took your gracious advise and looked up Joe Wilson on Wiki, as far as I can tell most of the points Cliff made were there in the Wiki piece. They said Joe never filed a report on his trip, that the report of the interviewing agents didn’t match the statements in his book. I particularly liked the part where the embassy asked Washington to send someone, and when Joe showed up the ambassador said they had already debunked the story. Nothing fishy there. And the agent that sent the email saying that nothing ole’ Joe said could be regarded as accurate. Thanks for the heads-up, there is lots of good stuff in there. Of course all you saw was BUSH LIED AND PEOPLE DIED, I’m sure you read the rest but the bias blinders hinder comprehension.

    Us farm boys ain’t very bright, but if someone, anyone outed a covert agent, why weren’t there any charges brought against anyone for violation of the IIA. (LB, watch him weasel this one)

    Why would Clinton be acquitted? Your thinking of something different, LB and I are talking about the last minute pardons, the President can pardon anyone he likes, except in impeachment matters. Any president could turn Charles Manson loose with the stroke of a pen legally. Doesn’t mean we can’t criticize, just like you are doing, we just have more reason since the folks Clinton pardoned actually killed people, Libby just forgot who he told what about a crime that wasn’t committed. Unless of course you can find where someone was charged with a violation of the IIA

    I’m not exactly sure what brought on that stereotypical, bigoted tirade, I’m not even anti abortion, you must have me mixed up with someone else. Tell you what, if you want to throw Scooter in prison for defending Rich, I’ll sign the petition.

  22. leftbehind Says:

    NL is absolutely correct about Libby and Rich being connected, and for shining some light for any of us who cling too tightly to the “us good-them bad” philosophy of American politics. Doesn’t it hit anyone as interesting just how many figures who are supposed to be diametrically opposed in American politics are so closely connected? Libby was Rich’s lawyer, Bill Bennet’s brother was Bill Clinton’s lawyer, and so on and so forth. It’ll be interesting to see which Conservatives Valerie Plame and her husband end up in in personal or professonal cahoots with. Kiss ass. Get ahead, form the alliances you need to form and keep the facade of moral crusade up to make the “great masses of the botch and bungled” feel as though they’re part of something.

    We only imagine ourselves to be on the same side as any of these people, and it is only our fantasies that cast them in passionate opposition to the people we don’t like. Ultimately, all these folks are on the same team, at least more than they have any real connection to us. They all work in the same town, they vaction in the same exclusive resorts, they go to the same coctail parties and do business with each other on a fairly regular basis. It’s a lot more them vs. us than it is them vs. each other, and not even much of that, since there’s not a lot of evidence that most political figures of national import know or care that we even exist.

    “People who become too closely involved in the politics of the day make the same mistake as the bull in ring, who charges the cloth instead of the matador. That is what politics is for – to teach you the cloth.” WSB

  23. Craig Says:

    For what its worth, the CIA has claimed her to have had covert status during the time in question, but has admittedly failed to present evidence to support the claim that she would be considered covert under the much more specific guidelines of the IIPA.

    So, those who make claims of “fact” that this covert status question has been answered definitively in either direction are being inaccurate.

    Preferred opinions are not facts.

  24. Steve Says:

    Please realize shcb’s strategy here. He completely changed the topic to something irrelevant to the post. The real issue is that Bush commuted the sentence of a criminal just because that criminal was his friend.

    It’s a case of there being one standard of justice for the elites (no punishment for crimes), one standard for Americans, and even one standard for the rest of the world (prison and torture without trial).

    It’s just plain wrong. Wrong enough to generate feelings of great anger. I believe this anger should be channeled into restoring the scales of justice.

  25. enkidu Says:

    This whole thing is quite simple.

    A CIA covert agent was outed by someone (“scooter” was one of several shrubco hatchet men sent out to discredit and intimidate Joe Wilson – wrong move btw). By law, the government must investigate how our secret agent became not so much of a secret. The investigation led straight to Cheney’s door. Scooter took the fall so Tricky Dick won’t have to spend time behind bars.


    Impeach Darth Cheney first, then junior.

    Valerie Plame was a secret goddam agent her entire career. Until the Rethuggle® War Machine™ threw her under the bus. So… rwnj et al, if you idiots are the party of security blah blah blah, why DID you scumbags out a secret agent who spent most of her career on nuclear non-proliferation? Specializing in Iraq. Iran. The middle east. *crickets*

    I’ll answer that because rwnjs won’t: shrubco outed her because she (and her husband) wouldn’t play ball and lie our country into an unnecessary, illegal and immoral war.

    Gee, I for one feel SO much safer!

  26. leftbehind Says:

    Not just a secret agent, folks, but a secret goddam agent. The “goddam” denotes at least three further layers of secrecy beyond the usual secret agent.

  27. enkidu Says:

    Ah yes, thank you lefty! One can always count on you to be the resident spelling nazi. Goddamn is indeed the correct spelling.

    Funny how you can’t deny that the law required an investigation into the outting of a secret agent. And that Scooter was found guilty of obstruction of justice. Sentenced well within the sentencing guidelines and then… the worst president in US history gave his lying pal a get out of jail free card.

    How long until Scooter is on FauxNEWZ? Maybe he and Ollie could go gay together. I hear that is ALL the rage with rwnjs these days – not that there is anything wrong with that! ;-)

  28. leftbehind Says:

    You know it, you pretty Chicken Boy! Oh, Inky, we WERE made for each other, you and I. I could just kiss your black little toes. Just don’t tell your Daddy, him’m Otis and Earle would never understand.

    Actually, I wasn’t ragging on your spelling. I figured “Goddam” is the going spelling down there in Fagbash Flats. As in “Gaddam, Ronnie, that goddam ol’ girl’s a goddam ol’ secret agent. Goddam!”

  29. knarlyknight Says:

    Bush Admits White House CIA Leak
    Associated Press
    July 12, 2007 3:23 p.m.

    WASHINGTON — President Bush acknowledged publicly for the first time Thursday that someone in his administration “perhaps” leaked the name of a CIA operative, although he also said he hopes the controversy over his decision to spare prison for a former White House aide has “run its course.”

    “And now we’re going to move on,” Mr. Bush said in a White House news conference.

    The president had initially said he would fire anyone in his administration found to have publicly disclosed the identity of Valerie Plame, the wife of former Ambassador Joseph Wilson and a CIA operative. Mr. Wilson is an outspoken Iraq war critic.

    Ten days ago, Mr. Bush commuted the 30-month sentence given to I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby by a federal judge in connection with the case. Mr. Libby, the former chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, had been convicted of lying and obstruction of justice in the CIA-leak case.

    Mr. Bush would not directly answer a question about whether he is disappointed in the White House officials who leaked Ms. Plame’s name. “I’m aware of the fact that perhaps somebody in the administration did disclose the name of that person,” Mr. Bush said. “I’ve often thought about what would have happened if that person had come forth and said, ‘I did it.’ Would we have had this endless hours of investigation and a lot of money being spent on this matter? But, so, it’s been a tough issue for a lot of people in the White House. It’s run its course and now we’re going to move on.”

    He also defended the decision to commute Mr. Libby’s sentence. “The Scooter Libby decision was, I thought, a fair and balanced decision,” Mr. Bush said.

    Several Bush administration officials revealed Ms. Plame’s identity. White House political adviser Karl Rove and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage were the primary sources for a 2003 newspaper article outing Ms. Plame. Former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer also admitted telling reporters about her. And jurors apparently believed prosecutors who said Mr. Libby discussed Ms. Plame with reporters from the New York Times and Time magazine. Mr. Libby was the only one charged in the matter.

    Meanwhile, the sentencing judge, U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton, took issue Thursday with Mr. Bush’s characterization of Mr. Libby’s sentence as “excessive.”

    “It is fair to say the Court is somewhat perplexed as to how its sentence could be accurately described as “excessive,'” wrote Judge Walton, a Bush appointee. He noted that the 2-1/2 year sentence was at the low end of federal sentencing guidelines. Judge Walton’s comments came in a footnote to an opinion formalizing Mr. Libby’s probation term. Mr. Bush kept in place two years probation and a $250,000 fine, which Mr. Libby has already paid.

  30. knarlyknight Says:

    Presumably, Mr. Libby will soon be awarded a contract by The Carlyle Group to research tax matters relating to a vacation villa in Bermuda, ironically the contract will be for approximately $250,000 (plus expenses for himself and his family while researching the villa’s amenities.)

  31. enkidu Says:

    Sorry knarly, you won’t get any logic, reason or discussion of facts from rwnj and his microcephalic sidekick Lefty-McNutJob. These guys are like cockroachs: you shine the light of truth on them and they scatter or wilt like the pansies they really are. The only ‘facts’ these fools are willing to discuss or debate is whether libs/dems are more seditious or treasonous.

    Libby broke the law, was convicted, sentenced and then moronic king george said it’s ok to lie and break the law (any law) if it is for partisan gain.

    Can you imagine the kinds of things these nutters would do if President Hillary tried ANY of this stuff?

  32. shcb Says:

    Hey guys,

    Just back from a whirlwind week in China, ya’all miss me? I’ve been up for something like 26 straight hours, so I just glanced at this thread. Wondering has anyone answered the question, if so many laws were broken in regards to outing a covert agent why was there not an indictment? Thanks Craig, at least someone here is a standup guy, be careful though, these jackals have been known to eat their young. Steve, how did I change the subject? I believe the outing of Plame is germane to this discussion. Yes, Libby broke a law in not being consistent with statements to investigators however the severity of that lie, misstatement, or whatever is incumbent on the severity of the underlying issue, was she covert under the law.

    Small point, Bush has not pardoned Libby YET, he probably will if the appeals fail. That is Bush’s right under our constitution. To Enkidu’s last point, the lunatic right would be doing the same thing you guys are doing if Hillary were Pres. I personally would not join them, admittedly I would have to grudgingly, very grudgingly, admit there was no justification for the sentence place on Libby for his minor crime. There are kooks on both sides.

    Oh by the way, this site is evidently blocked in China, I couldn’t get on in the hotel or the office. Gotta love communism.

  33. leftbehind Says:

    I think I finally got on Enkidu’s nerves. He’s starting to pout.

  34. leftbehind Says:

    Isn’t there a former President who lied to Federal Investigators a few years ago? You there…the angry African gentleman with the large head, Mr. Du…do you remember what was done with him?

  35. leftbehind Says:

    Here’s an interesting Wikipedia article neither Enkidu or Knarly will read, entitled “Alternative theories regarding the CIA leak scandal.” It’s not necessarily a clean defense of Libby (I don’t think there is one,) but it does bring up some interesting points, and puts this affair in more perspective than the discussion here:

  36. knarlyknight Says:

    ‘Libby said in a written statement he is “confident that at the end of this process I will be completely and totally exonerated.”‘

    Close, but no cigar mr libby.

    A lot of other goofy predictions were made way back when he was indicted too.

  37. shcb Says:

    Thanks, LB

    It appears the if Plame was “covert” she was on the farthest edge of the definition of that term.

  38. leftbehind Says:

    No problem.

    Plame was certainly covert, and her outing ruined her effectiveness as an anti-poliferation agent in the mideast. Having said that though, the idea that she was some kind of deep cover agent, marked for death when her name was revealed doesn’t pan out at all. Plame is an analyst, not Agent 99.

    All this “impeach Cheney” stuff is kind of screwy, too. This Plame affair is essentially all over but the shouting, and everybody knew how it was going to end from the get-go. Even if Cheney were impeached, what would it mean? Clinton already de-fanged that particular dragon years ago. Hooray for the good guys!!!

  39. shcb Says:


    Ok libs, I’m going to disagree with LB here, watch how it is done civilly. I don’t know if LB is a conservative, libertarian or what, but I’m guessing we disagree on many issues, doesn’t mean we have to call each other names or play the race card if one of us gets behind in the debate, we can just roll with the punches and move on. Enjoy.


    I don’t think I’m as ready as you to say she was covert or her effectiveness was limited by Novac’s column (Armitage was the leak anyway, why don’t these guys want his head) (rhetorical question). Maybe we are just talking about was she covert in a practical sense versus a legal sense. As these guys have pointed out many times I’m a simple man, so tell me where I’m wrong here; Plame is at a cocktail party using her real name, someone asks what she does for a living, she says she is an analyst for the CIA ala Jack Ryan in Clancy’s novels. Some time later she needs to install an actual agent (Bond, James Bond) in a third world country like France, but she wants to go in person with Bond to make him look more like a consultant working for the fictitious Ajax Nuclear Control Systems Corporation where Plame is the fictitious VP using the alias of Pussy Galore. She makes introductions, takes a tour of the plant, sits in on a couple meetings and leaves Bond behind to do the actual spying.

    Now I don’t know if this was her roll but if it was I suppose that would make her covert in the broadest sense but… So she is outed by someone in the State Department (second in command from what I understand, I guess you say he was the VP of State, pretty big fish) she’s outed, the press goes to Wilson and says “does your wife work for the CIA?” he says, “yup, she’s an analyst”. How is her effectiveness of dusting off her Pussy Galore business cards every year or two diminished? Unless of course you write a book, get yourself on the cover of VF, hit the talk show circuit etc. I think these two saw this as a personal gains and ideological opportunity worth sacrificing her career. I also think they were using this whole mess to cover up her involvement of sending Joe on a mission he was clearly not qualified for. He was qualified for doing what he did, talking to a few officials, getting their side of the story, but he should have been only a small part of the mission, his work being little more than a footnote, but there is no ego boost in a footnote. If she were truly a conscientious agent and her discovery would jeopardize any missions, she would not have suggested her husband for such a mission, just on the off chance this type of thing happened.

    Now I don’t think these two had a big master plan when this started, I just think things started unfolding in front of them and they just went with it. Sorry Knarly, just a couple opportunistic people doing what comes natural to them, no ninja suited stock brokers with explosive training and a passion for remote control Boeing aircraft.

    I also think given the chance this Senate would vote to remove if impeachment proceedings were successful, remember they voted in lockstep in the Clinton affair, with not a single Democrat voting guilty on either charge. These guys HATE BUSH. Remember he stole the coronation of Gore, a man bred for the job.

  40. enkidu Says:

    “if so many laws were broken in regards to outing a covert agent why was there not an indictment?” Actually, there was an indictment: for obstruction of justice. Libby (or someone he is protecting) lied to Federal Investigators. He was actually found guilty (this is fact, not rwnj spin and fud). If he had simply told the Feds everything he knew, we would be questioning the next person up the chain of command…

    So, why is this important? Because the outting was to silence a war critic. Wrong move. Joe Wilson thrives on theatrics. See his little scene in Baghdad under the competent Bush (the one I voted for, GHWB). The Niger uranium buy was a lie. The WMDs were lies. Many Americans and indeed most people the world over thought the Iraq war was (and is) a tragic mistake.

    Plame was covert. No two ways about it. All this drivel about double-super-duper-secret-cyanide-pill-xbox360-1337-agent is just the usual rwnj bull.

    And as to being polite, you lost me when you describe anyone who doesn’t agree with you as “lying sacks of shit” (or something to that effect). The Rethugglican™ party lost me when they branded anyone who dared to question king george w as a traitor. The traitor to the Constitution sits in the White House, or lurks in the Naval Observatory (or perhaps a secure secret location with the rest of the ‘shadow government’).

    We don’t need bombs and bullets to take back the reins of government: just a paper ballot. Oh and grow a pair Dems. Impeach these scum bags.

  41. shcb Says:

    but there wasn’t an indictment of anyone for outing a covert agent, correct? Because under the definition of covert in the law she wasn’t. She may be covert by your definition, but your definition doesn’t count. This is a criminal case.

    I’m sorry, I can’t help myself. when did GWB lie about WMD’s. I’m patient I’ll keep asking until I get an answer.

    No one ever said there was a uranium buy in Niger, only an attempted buy, the Brits still stand by that assesment, Wilson also said there was an attempted buy, before he said there wasn’t.

    I don’t call anyone who disagrees with me LSOS’s, just LSOS’S like Joe Wilson, I’ve never called you an LSOS, because I don’t think you are, you may be misguided by LSOS’s like Joe but that doesn’t make you one, and God knows we disagree.

  42. shcb Says:

    By the way, you were going through your tirades long before I made the LSOS comments so ‘scuse me for yawning about your loss of civility because of a comment I made about someone else.

  43. knarlyknight Says:

    LB, Thanks for the Wiki link (I generally avoid Wiki because it’s hard to tell who the authors or editors may be), and I did sift through the alternative theories you linked to there and find they are much as you and shcb put forth also. What I also found interesting was a little further down in that same link:

    ‘ In sentencing Libby to 30 months, Judge Walton stated that “The CIA believes one of its agents was improperly outed….They had a legitimate concern. So they contact the Justice Department and they say this needs to be investigated….And the Justice Department…goes to investigate and they make inquiries….And that person lies…When law enforcement officials…initiate an investigation…it is the obligation of the American citizenry to be honest and forthright.”[39] Walton rejected Libby’s argument that Fitzgerald failed to establish any statute had been violated, ruling that Libby’s perjury had obstructed a legitimate investigation.[40][41] ‘

    So now that I’m up to speed that the issue is obstruction of justice and not whether Plame’s identity as CIA was classified, I am still left scratching my head as to why libby got pardoned from jail for obstructing justice…

  44. leftbehind Says:

    It’s fairly simply, Knarly. Because he’s on the right side of powerful people, just like Clinton was. And because, like the people who were after the Clinton, the people who were after Libby were far more concerned with embarrassing the other side for political points than any of them were with any empirical legal point. In this case, they were fishing for Cheney, settled for Libby, and don’t seem awfully concerned with him doing jail time because a) all the political points have already been scored from the conviction b) it is more politically advantageous for administration’s critics to have a pardon to grouse about than to force the issue of his incarceration and c) Libby is as much “one of the boys” with the people who prosecuted him as he is with the crowd who have supported him. After all, who could look Scooter in the eye at the country club if they were the one who got him put away? This is a game, and anyone who thinks the players take any of this as seriously as many of us do is being played.

  45. leftbehind Says:

    Isn’t this the same thing as the case of Sandy Berger, the former National Security Advisor under Bill Clinton who removed classified documents from the National Archive and cut them up prior to testifying before the 9/11 commission? He plead guilty and has even seen a day of prison time. How do you think he pulled that? What do you think would have happened to one of us if we had pulled a stunt like that?

  46. knarlyknight Says:

    LB, interesting. Thanks. In reply to your rhetorical Q, If any regular folk pulled a stunt like that we’d be grateful to receive one hour of sunlight per day.

    By the way, how many different personalities do you have anyway?

  47. leftbehind Says:

    Only one – it just seems like more because I’m so vivacious and bursting with personality, like Joel Grey, or Liza…

  48. enkidu Says:

    I think the new Rx I emailed his doctor might be working.

  49. leftbehind Says:

    Enkidu would have replied sooner, but Sybil had to go to the bathroom…

  50. enkidu Says:

    No actually I have been travelling a bit. I won’t let on exactly where, but the kids got to sit in the pilot seat of a multimillion dollar attack aircraft, put on the flight helmet and step into Daddy Enk’s shoes (so to speak). They had a lot of questions about why the wings fold up.

    Go join up if you love your war so much lefty.
    And shcb make sure your offspring all join up too.


  51. enkidu Says:

    please provide a link to where Cindy Sheehan has been ‘banned’ from Kos

  52. shcb Says:

    I didn’t realize you were a military man. My deepest respect to you sir. I did not join the military when I was young and able, and as I got older regretted that decision a bit, so I will take your “coward” remark with head lowered. My daughters can and will make decisions such as whether to join the military, which political party and what religion to be a member of. I would be extremely proud of them if they made the decision to join the military. But early on in our marriage my wife and I decided those decisions were theirs.

    Here are a couple links to the Sheehan story, the first is her entry last Thursday.

  53. enkidu Says:

    thx rwnj. Interesting. I couldn’t bear to read that harpy malkin’s drivel, so I am sure you can quote chapter and verse of her hate speech. Knock yourself out.

    It doesn’t seem like they ‘banned’ her. Just warned her that the site’s stated goal is to further Democratic candidates/goals etc. I thought they generally supported progressive causes, but I stand corrected.

    And yes, they can ban trolls based on IP traces etc. And if rwnjs want to go and talk a bunch of trash while pretending to be liberal, then their comments can be troll rated by the readers. It isn’t some scary monolithic top down organization, it’s a bottom up grassroots community. For rwnjs to pretend that kos is full of hate and compare them oto the nazis or kkk is beyond ludicrous.

    If you feel strongly about something, register at kos and write your own rwnj diary. See how far you get. Then scurry back to little green nutjobs or malkin’s little shop of rw horrors.

    By the way, perhaps you should report me to the authorities because I don’t show enough ideological purity to rwnj causes. King george w (w for wacko) just signed an executive decree stating that anyone who hinders or opposes the rwnj crusade in Iraq can have their assets seized. Which leaves us with just two bits of the Bill of Rights left: we don’t have to quarter british soldiers and (thanks NRA!) we can still own guns.

  54. leftbehind Says:

    Enkidu –

    If I loved the war, I would join, or re-enlist, as the case may be. If you really wanted to stop it, you’d be doing something more constructive than flapping your cyber-gums on a blog nobody but us ever reads. You might paint a catchy slogan on a sign, like so many hearty anti-warriors do, or you could build a puppet and do an interpretive dance with it in front of the stock exchange – that was popular for a while, too. But your teeth make such sweet music when they rattle, don’t they?

    Anyway, it’s cool you got the show the kids your plane. Don’t forget to show them how to keep their fingers out of the way of the rubber band when they fly it. That shit stings!

  55. leftbehind Says:

    Have you won any medals in the military? You could throw them at the White House in protest…just make sure you only throw the ribbons, as you might need the medals again if you run for something.

  56. shcb Says:


    It sounds like you must have read more of the Malkin piece than I did, I just read the small section on Sheehan. I like Malkin kind of the same as I like Coulter, they are cute and, well, I’m a guy. I have similar beliefs as both but they go a little farther than I am comfortable with. Malkin seems a little more reasonable than Coulter but the folks that submit to her blog are as goofy as Knarly. I read her blog for a few weeks and gave up on it except in cases like this where I need information. She seems to get the facts right, I just don’t where her audience takes them. I had never heard of Kos before, quite frankly, I don’t have the time to spend on more blogs than this one. My wife would kill me. It seemed about the same as this one anyway. I agree “banned” may be a little harsh. I would like to know what the “I have been warned” part was all about. That could be taken so many ways. Maybe she will talk about it more in a different forum. I just think it is funny when people on either side burn folks they were promoting a few weeks ago.

    I go to Charlie Daniels blog every now and then and see the same thing on the right. If you have some time, check his site out. For an old country rock star he is a pretty good writer. You won’t like what he has to say, but he says it well. Don’t bother reading the comments from the rwnj’s, they will just piss you off and for the most part they are just saying “way to go Charlie, I agree with everything you say” kind of like getting an autograph. I think you may be overstating a bit in the last paragraph. But thank god we don’t have to house the Brits.

    What does Kos stand for or mean?
    What is troll rated? Does it have something to do with the Hobbit? I never read the book so I might need a little help if it does.

  57. enkidu Says:

    Coulter is a man, baby. Next time you drool over ‘her’ on fauxNEWZ, make sure you enjoy the delightful sight of ‘her’ Adam’s Apple (seriously). And she calls others harridans… #1 hate speech author in Duhmerkkka.

    Troll means a comment or poster who adds nothing to the ‘debate’. Like say lefty mcnutjob in this thread, nothing but vitriol and non sequitors, mixed with some craziness. On dailyKos you can ‘troll rate’ individual comments and after a while I think they are either forbidden from posting or their hatefilled posts are deleted (or hidden or something? I just visit once in a while to see if any articles or diaries are worth a quick perusal). Point is, not every post is ‘banned’ and it is done by the community rather than some top down All Father (who rwnjs assume is George Soros, who is Evil!™ because he contributes to liberal causes… )

    kos is a component of Markos Moulitsas name (he founded dailyKos). It’s a nickname – it was his Army nick btw. I am not sure I spelled his name right, so I went over there to check: not a single thread on the front page was authored by Markos. It is a community of progressives (which I just this week learned is only for Dem causes/issues? hrmph)

    The Hobbit is kind of a kiddie book, but the Lord of the Rings is excellent (like a slow moving river that grows more powerful with each mile [towards Mordor]). The Silmarilion is quite interesting as well tho in a much more epic style. JRRT was part of the Inklings, CS Lewis was another famous Inkling author (Christian centered themes). Lewis’ “The Problem of Pain” has a very lucid analysis of why God allows pain and suffering (indeed seems to revel in it).

  58. shcb Says:

    Thanks for the info. It’s their site, they make the rules, doesn’t sound like my cup of tea. If Ann is a man I may have to rethink this homophobia thing. I have never been into that whole supernatural thing in movies, the Green Mile even kind of lost me when it started going that direction, although I finished the movie. I think it is because I grew up Catholic and had that father son and holy ghost thing shoved down my throat from the time I was 5 or 6. that is one of the reasons I purposely didn’t take my kids to church. If they asked to go, we went, they were encouraged to go with their friends etc. but I didn’t want to force that decision on them. The middle girl is very religious the other two aren’t, but at least her faith isn’t fake. Don’t be too hard on Kos for being protective of Democratic causes, they are only being practical. This is a two party system, period. If they are farther to the left than typical Democrats, they should promote elect able democrats that are farther to the left in the primary season, Obama for instance. After the election they will probably loosen their standards until the next election.

    I don’t have any problem with Soros spending his money however he wants. The criticism I have heard of him that upsets me is that he pumped a lot of money into McCain Feingold with provisions included that would allow him to circumvent the bill. He then promptly went around the bill he had so tirelessly promoted. Don’t know how true that is, not sure I really care. I would like all financing restrictions removed and replaced with full disclosure with the threat of serious jail time if this reporting isn’t adhered to. I would also like to up the pay of congressmen and the president at least 10 fold, more on that later.

    Are the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings the same story just one one adult and one kiddie?

  59. enkidu Says:


  60. leftbehind Says:

    “Lord of the Rings” is a trilogy written by JRR Tolkien, the man who invented the “Hobbit-concept.” These are books which many uninformed minds have falsely believed to be literature possessed of great truths. Written in stages between 1937 and 1946, the trilogy is now recognized as a hallmark in progressive literature, being the first fantasy epic to cast openly homosexual characters in a positive, even heroic light.

    The Beatles toyed with the idea of staging excerpts from the work as their third film. John was to play Golem, a slimey man-newt with sociopathic tendencies, while Ringo was to play Frodo, the lead “hobbit” in Tolkien’s masterwork – a character of great charm, and the source of much warm mirth.

  61. leftbehind Says:

    Just like Ringo himself!

  62. shcb Says:

    I guess I missed that phase of my life. I was probably too busy riding dirt bikes, playing football and trying to sneak the beer we just bought from a kid old enough to buy into the drive in so I could impress and take advantage of the cute girl in algebra class, only to have her get in a car with a guy who was taller and better looking than me, so I drank the beer and told lies about how high we jumped the bikes that day. Can you imagine the beating a kid would have gotten in southwest Kansas in the late 60’s, early 70’s if you recited what you just did?

  63. leftbehind Says:

    Tell me about it. the white, working-class types at my school had very little use for heroic fantasy of any sort, unless it was painted on the side of a van. I can’t say as I blame them that much…

  64. enkidu Says:

    yours is truly a demon haunted world lefty mcfruitloop
    seek medical attention

  65. leftbehind Says:

    You’re calling me a fruitloop? Your best (only)friend on this blog is some guy who thinks Popular Mechanics magazine is involved in a plot to destroy the World Trade Center, based on information he picked up on a website administrated by some nut on Youtube who looks for Satanic imagery on Starbucks coffee mugs and I’m a fruitloop? Talk about calling the kettle black, Flavor Flav…

  66. shcb Says:


    unless the hero rode a horse or drove a black trans am

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