America’s Ace Interrogator

Is the Cookie Monster. coooookie!!!
And reportedly Happy Meals also work wonders.

Torture is effective at just one thing: providing false confessions and false information. Hmmm, I am sure we have a simple English word for verifiably false information… tip of my tongue… it’s a little word… politicians do it often…

As an aside: why is the pic of Ron Jeremy associated with that link? In the print edition of TIME, we get an actual photo of Mr. Super Duper Bad Guy™ Abu (Bobby) Jandal. Just saying.

94 Responses to “America’s Ace Interrogator”

  1. shcb Says:

    The fact that this type of interrogation works as well as it does is the reason we didn’t use more intense methods more than we did. Remember we only used “torture” when these softer methods had failed.

  2. knarlyknight Says:

    So says the little Dick Cheney.

  3. shcb Says:

    Here is how the semantics work. Say we capture a terrorist leader who is over a cell of twenty men, through these non violent methods we learn that they are in the advanced stages of planning an attack but it is on hold for some reason. So there is no ticking time bomb scenario but it is a grave threat. We also find out that they change their cell phones every month and the fellow in custody calls them all on an appointed day to get their new number so he can contact them when the time is right. Now we have tricked him into giving us all this information but he won’t tell us the specifics of what the numbers are, what the exact date the calls are to be made and what the target is. There is a good chance he will never tell us what the target is but one of his subordinates may. But the phone numbers are something we can validate. So we press him this some uncomfortable treatment, he gives us bogus numbers, we increase the discomfort, eventually he realizes we are going to continue to increase the level until he gives us the right numbers and we capture 20 terrorists.

    Here is where the semantics come in, the interrogation expert in the article uses his trickery and gets the initial information, he then hits a brick wall but uses his detective skills and tracks where this guy has been buying his cell phones and finds out there are other suspects that are buying theirs in the same store, even though they are supposed to buy them at different stores, they have gotten lazy. So we catch three or four of them. Our expert can then say we captured the ring leader and using non violent methods we also captured 3 or 4 others before our window of opportunity ran out. All true. But we could have gotten so much more.

    Now of course maybe the leader gives us the wrong date and we never get any of them, you just can never tell, but in this kind of situation you have a better chance the less you tie your own hands.

    More than 40 of Ibrahim’s friends and family members associated with the insurgency were already in custody. For an hour and a half, Maddox tried to persuade him that giving up Saddam could lead to the release of his friends and family. Then Maddox played his final card: “I told him he had to talk quickly because Saddam might move,” he says. “I also said that once I got on the plane, I would no longer be able to help him. My colleagues would just toss him in prison. Instead of saving 40 of his friends and family, he’d become No. 41.”

    I’m pretty sure this constitutes psychological torture under the UN resolution to use family members into the interrogation as a threat.

  4. J.A.Y.S.O.N. Says:

    Not sure about that, your example seems to fall under what I’d think of as conventional interrogation techniques. At least you know, based on the 4000 episodes of Law & Order I’ve seen.

  5. shcb Says:

    :-) yeah, that is probably where most of our knowledge of interrigation comes from. I’m an NCIS guy myself.

  6. NorthernLite Says:

    24? This season that just finished touched on toruture and it’s effectiveness or lack thereof.

  7. J.A.Y.S.O.N. Says:

    NCIS is pretty good too. I couldn’t get into 24. I watched the first season and thought it was pretty ridiculous. I like good characters and drama (I really enjoy Life.) but I’m more of a procedural crime show guy. (Law & Order, Bones, etc.)

  8. shcb Says:

    I never watched 24, I like my Monday sitcoms and don’t have Tivo. Didn’t 24 switch producers or directors? I read somewhere where there was a change at that level that changed the direction of the show to where Jack was more guilt ridden. I liked the original Law and Order on occasion but I haven’t liked any of the spin offs,

  9. shcb Says:

    here it is

    The seventh season was delayed a year due to the writers’ strike. In the intervening period, the show lost one of its creators, executive producer Joel Surnow. It was Surnow, a rare Hollywood conservative, who was largely responsible for the show’s popularity with the right as 24 became the only drama at the time to realistically portray Islamic radicals as our enemy. The series never degenerated into mindless stereotypes but rather gave the viewer a stark look at what we were fighting.

  10. enkidu Says:

    It never ceases to amaze me that wwnj and his ‘ilk’ are AOK with this:
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11488.htm
    but now insist that smart policework is torture.

    Smart police work like you nab two guys, you split em up into two rooms and say to each: the first guy to confess and help us out gets a better deal than the second guy. So it is torture for a NYC cop to tell someone things will go easier if they cooperate? But crushing the testicles of a child to make the parent confess is AOK? You Rs have completely lost your compass, both moral and mental.

    That you proudly trumpet that torture is patriotic and necessary is beyond the scope of normal human decency. You would become our enemy to buy a few more saved lives? Worse than our enemies. Worse than the lawless amoral religious cretins that hate others enough to kill on a massive scale. Why worse? because this nation stood for liberty and justice and all that was right (not right wing) in civilization. That you base our foreign policy on a hollywood thriller TV show is beyond stupid. I should think that this truth is self-evident, but abandoning our morals is not a good solution either long or short term.

    Perhaps you should look up the meaning of the word ‘poltroon’.

    Please shcb, please go galt. Soon.

    ooops almost forgot
    have a great weekend!

  11. shcb Says:

    Yoo is probably right as far as the constitution goes, the remedy would be impeachment. Just as the constitution doesn’t limit the presidential powers of engaging in war very much it is also vague as to what constitutes impeachable offenses. As Smith said if you read the federalist papers you would know the reasoning for both points. Now the child would be protected under the Fourth Geneva Convention and the president is bound to that treaty, so the question is moot except as an academic exercise discussing presidential powers from the narrow confines of the Constitution. Also, subordinates could and should refuse orders of either genocide or torturing children since they are clearly violations of the Geneva Conventions. Now I know I’m not going to get a rational rebuttal from you but if someone else wants to comment rationally I would love to hear it.

  12. shcb Says:

    I’m not against what Maddox did, I am just saying if we play by all the various rules to the letter I think he crossed a line there and Time didn’t pick up on it. To Time’s defense we signed and ratified that resolution but then mostly exempted ourselves out of it so he really probably didn’t cross a line but using your (and Time’s) past line of reasoning and misunderstanding of the various laws and treaties he did.

  13. enkidu Says:

    lol
    please point out to me my “past line of reasoning and misunderstanding of the various laws and treaties”

    (This should be good coming from a wwnj with a sub-high school level of education who gets his ‘facts’ from fox, pajamasmedia, chuckles krauthammer and macho mike rosen)

    Even Gen Patreus thinks we violated the Geneva Convention…

  14. shcb Says:

    I suppose we could start with Bush lied and work from there. you have asserted that warentless wiretaps against terrorists are illegal; they aren’t. you have asserted these terrorists are protected under Geneva, they aren’t. etc, etc.

  15. shcb Says:

    You just can’t help yourself can you? What does my education have to do with anything? Thomas Sowell is truly a high school dropout, and yet he went on to get a doctorate and is an incredibly intelligent man. I on the other hand have a high school diploma, b average without ever doing a minute of homework. I have two years of post high school education, lived in a college dorm both years, got the whole college experience but it was a trade school so I have no degree. I am the only person I have ever met with my skill sets; I can conceptualize, sell, build every part, wire, program and install multi million dollar fully automated production lines. On top of that I am an accomplished welder and journeyman die maker; I also owned a profitable small business for ten years. And that is just my professional skills; I am also a very accomplished woodworker, gardener and cook. The only thing I can’t do is dance.

    I have forgotten more about politics than you ever did or ever will know.

    But you just can’t help yourself, when have you ever posted anything here where you didn’t denigrate someone for the express purpose of blind hatred.

  16. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb,
    You’ll like this, at leat the bit at the 17 minute mark. I suspect the whole thing will give JBC anxiety.
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5329857034306331360

  17. knarlyknight Says:

    and oatat, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/04/dick-uncut-daily-show-cal_n_211240.html

  18. shcb Says:

    The Penn and Teller skit was great, I could do without all the cussing but that is his style. I just find watching this eco stuff fascinating. The very people who make fun of religion are exhibiting the same characteristics with global warming. The same people that put all their trust in the scientific method are ignoring half the data. The company I work for took a mundane product and got rich making it trendy. We have a big green push going on now, I mentioned in a meeting a while back that I thought the whole global warming movement was BS and was just a trend but that our company was in the trendy business so why not make some money off the dupes. Oh my god, you would have thought I had called Jesus Satan, there were audible gasps in the room. I won’t make that mistake again. As I have said on many occasions, I have no problem with saving energy or any of the solutions to the “carbon problem” as long as they are for the right reasons. Here is an example; when gas was $4 a gallon everyone was using cloth grocery bags instead of plastic, as soon as gas prices dropped so did the use of the bags, I go to the market at least every other day, I like fresh produce, there are only a handful of us left that use the cloth bags. What does fuel prices have to do with plastic bag use? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Not using the oil for that bag doesn’t change with the price of oil. My store gives me ten cents per cloth bag every time I use them and they are easier to carry, and I’m not using the oil, those are all good reasons, not global warming. .

  19. NorthernLite Says:

    shcb, re: 24

    That probably explains why fans of the show think that this season that just finished was one of the best to date.

    The writing was excellent this year, very deep.

  20. shcb Says:

    You’re probably right, no one ever said the American public has a long memory or can’t be swayed by a sympathetic press. Many of the evils are still out there, we are probably destined to repeat recent history a couple times before we finally rid ourselves of this menace.

  21. shcb Says:

    I found this V.D. Hanson piece this weekend, I have always found this to be true too, you have to force peace on bullies.

    http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/the-reckoning/

  22. enkidu Says:

    shcb, your 6/5 4:31 post:
    please link to instances where I state “bush lied, people died” and not just agreeing or disagreeing with other posts on that phrase. I’m not much for bumper stickers, but it is probably more on the side of truth than untruth: they did lie, and more specifically torture, to get their war on. heck of a job…

    I’ve stated that warrant-less wiretapping of Americans is illegal. I’ve stated many times I think we should be data mining, tapping and recording every cell and land line call in and out of Saudi Arabia (and I’d add Pakistan). It is fun for you to make up a strawman about how anyone to the left of you is fer them trrrists! It just isn’t, you know, true.

    So now you think General Patreus is wrong? He asserts that we broke the Geneva Conventions. We did. To state otherwise is to deny plain and simple fact. It wasn’t just a few bad apples. The tree was rotten to the core.

    as to your 6/5 7:02 post:
    lol
    an excellent illustration of the perils of drinking and posting.

    So I’m a Very Bad Guy Hater for simply repeating your statement that you had a high school level of education? So you can mention it, but I can’t? You don’t set the terms of my discourse. Blind hatred? lol! You proudly proclaim your info sources as extremely right wing and then call the whaaaambulance when anyone mentions that you should think about trying something other than extremist info sources.

    Wow, impressive CV!

    knarls – great link to the penn and teller GW debunk – food for thought and I’ll try watching some of their other episodes. cheers
    I still think we are running a very dangerous experiment in atmospheric composition (and feeding ME ienjs by relying on oil from people who hate us). The cost of inaction has grown too great, and green is a smart move as I doubt energy prices will remain low long term (see China and India)

    The Daily Show continues to rock it. I can’t wait to watch the Colbert Report from (undisclosed location). He and I now share the same haircut! Diggin the suit too.

  23. knarlyknight Says:

    whaaaambulance!

    perfect.

  24. enkidu Says:

    hmmm, I listened to the rest of the Penn & Teller shtick and I am not convinced at all of their ‘opinion’

    A couple points – carbon credits and offsets really do fund actual projects to reduce GHGs. How ‘efficient’ each scheme is has to be determined. But the market is growing from the grassroots up because people do want a sustainable environment and are willing to sacrifice a bit or just outright pay a ‘indulgence’ to have someone do something about it. Running a scam on people like they did was just illegal and shows how stupid folks are for not asking more questions and asking for some sort of proof of what will be done with the (entirely voluntary) donation.

    The whole 3% of CO2 thing is ridiculous. Natural systems evolved over billions of years and now we are pumping gigatons of geologic carbon into the air (plus gigatons of other pollutants in the process). At what point will human activities influence the planet’s ecosystem? Answer: we already are changing the planet on a massive scale. To argue it isn’t happening and we should just keep on doing what we have been doing is not the answer. Change is coming.

    We already talked about the volcano wwnj talking point and it is utter (dare I say it) bullshit.

    They even get a few simple facts wrong. Like the definition of a “labyrinth.” I think he is thinking of the marble game? Or perhaps the word “maze.” A decent editor would have caught that and nixed such a dumb bit…

    And the whole DDT is good for you! thing… no.

  25. shcb Says:

    It is legal to warrantless wiretap Americans if they suspected of having contact with terrorist organizations outside of the US.

    I simply disagree with Patreus on the Geneva issue, he doesn’t give any examples in the interview you are referring to, I would need to know exactly what he is talking about, and I’m guessing he would back off that statement if pressed. But if that is his opinion so be it.

    Here is the link you asked for:

    they did lie

    http://www.lies.com/wp/2009/06/04/americas-ace-interrogator/#comment-150682

    So I’m a Very Bad Guy Hater for simply repeating your statement that you had a high school level of education? So you can mention it, but I can’t?

    (This should be good coming from a wwnj with a sub-high school level of education who gets his ‘facts’ from fox, pajamasmedia, chuckles krauthammer and macho mike rosen)

    hmmm. Judge for yourself. You do a little more than just mention it. I’ve got thick skin, I don’t mind that much, you just do it on almost every post, a bunch of hatred comes out almost every time you open your browser; that is your prerogative, I was just pointing it out. (I’m just not that fond of bigots)

  26. enkidu Says:

    lol, poor widdle ricki
    I asked for an example in the past, not in the future or referencing your bringing it up in the first place. Epic fail.

    poor widdle ricki brags about having a sub-high school education (I plum fergit’d more politics then ya’ll ever know!!! grrrr!) and but calls the whaaambulance when I make fun of his wwnj extremist sources. Whaaa! Whaaa! poor widdle wicki needs hims ba ba. And mb a diapey change… is ums up past hims nappy time?

    If you don’t like bigots, you must really hate looking in the mirror.

    I just find wwnj extremism to be loathsome. There are plenty of reasonable conservatives, you just aren’t one that’s all. Sure you are way more sane than most of the wwnjs who post here, but that isn’t saying much.

  27. shcb Says:

    I couldn’t see the need to go back any further than needed.

  28. shcb Says:

    Labyrinth is the correct term for the layout shown. Go back and listen to what they say about DDT, it is correct.

  29. enkidu Says:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth
    para 2
    wrong again dear wwnj
    a labyrinth is an ancient tradition to help focus people for meditation – we go to a cathedral nearby with the kids and walk the labyrinth from time to time.

    You brought up the phrase “bush lied, people died” but since you did, I commented that it would be more true than false. You need to stop brushing your teeth with bullshit and then going around yelling about how sweet your breath is.

    What is it with you wwnjs that you just can’t accept you are wrong? bush was one of the worst presidents in history. Ever. Accept it and move on. It will be better for conservatism to bury the Rethuglican party and try again.

  30. shcb Says:

    Look labyrinth up on Wiki

    I’ll admit when I’m wrong, I always do, go back and read my post, I didn’t use that phrase, I didn’t say the “people died” part and no one here has given me an example of him lying in the leadup to Iraq in the two years I’ve been here. You’ve all convinced yourselves he did, but he didn’t.

    You are sure making my case though (and the point that liberals accuse others of doing what they are doing even if those other folks aren’t doing it), thanks.

  31. NorthernLite Says:

    It just makes you wanna do something like this eh?

    http://www.guidestolife.com/uploads/Jack_TortureBag.jpg

  32. enkidu Says:

    ummm, I posted the link to wiki?
    A labyrinth has but a single start point and a single stop point.
    A maze has branches and dead ends.
    They showed a bunch of tree huggers doing some new age-y nonsense while traversing a stone outlined labyrinth. Sorry to insist on these things called facts. How is the weather over in Wingnuttia?

    ummm, You brought it up: the bush administration lied to get their war on. Even worse they tortured to provide the rationale. No matter how many examples people present you will never ever accept responsibility for your team’s huge screw ups. I’m not much for bumper sticker slogans, but you keep bringing it up.

  33. shcb Says:

    what???? Yes it does make me want to do that NL.

  34. enkidu Says:

    NL, please keep the ‘torture pr0n’ to yourself mang, ugh
    never have I been more tempted to rickroll a poster’s comment

    typical that wwnj would think suffocating someone was a great idea (and thus ends your remarkable 7 month streak of no death threats wwnj… typical)

    I feel sorry for you lil ricki

  35. shcb Says:

    I was thinking more of the scream (my scream) but now that you mention it…

  36. NorthernLite Says:

    I never meant no harm and wasn’t directing that at anyone in particular, it seemed you were both frustrated with each other so I posted it as a weird joke.

    Was just a funny Jack Bauer picture I saw on the net that I thought related to the toruture topic. It’s not real. My bad. You can remove it if you want.

  37. enkidu Says:

    NL – I am not yrMom
    it was just tempting to rickroll that link is all

  38. shcb Says:

    But seriously folks, Enky is the single most frustrating person I have ever tried to have a conversation with. That labyrinth exchange was a perfect example.

  39. enkidu Says:

    hold on wwnj! I can hear the whaaambulance approaching.

    You enjoy fighting strawmen so much you must have a black belt in buffoonery

    you: libs is all “bush lied, people died!”
    me: well since you bring it up, yeah they lied and tortured to get their war on, your point?

    me: a labyrinth is not a maze (wiki link)
    you: libs is stupid!

    you: yea murder! yea torture! wooo! USA USA!
    me: when will you be going galt? can’t be soon enough…

  40. shcb Says:

    The path they were walking in the film wasn’t a maze, they just walked in concentric circles, he used the correct term. ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

  41. leftbehind Says:

    Good God…it’s like everyone here turned into me…

  42. shcb Says:

    …a fate worse than death…

  43. NorthernLite Says:

    Hey did I tell you guys I visited your great country a couple weeks ago? Went to Vegas for a UFC fight and to see a legendary DJ from Europe spin some beats (Tiesto). It was on your long weekend. What an amazing place! An environmental disaster to be sure, but still. Wow!

    I don’t think I’ve ever seen so many beautiful women in one place. Must be because of all that money eh lol.

  44. shcb Says:

    and most of them can be bought, not that i’m against it but for some reason it isn’t ever in my wife’s plans

  45. enkidu Says:

    Our family will be spending a couple days in Vegas on the way to Zion and Bryce (eventually we’ll end up in CO with my little bro and his family as well as my parents).

    wwnj I think the term you are looking for is rented, not bought.

    Looks like that DHS report on wwnj extremism wasn’t far from the mark. It is only about 4 and a half months in to the Obama presidency… pace your rage wwnjs. And please, stop shooting folks you disagree with. It is going to get a whole lot worse my friends, the wingnuts is very very angry. When you listen to ginned up nonsense from hate radio, Glen Beck, Rush and the spew that is Newt, what do you expect?

    Hey wwnj, how is your Million Moran Militia March coming along?

  46. leftbehind Says:

    I wasn’t going to bring up the shooting at the Holocaust Museum until you did, Inky, because I didn’t want to pry. Do the doctors expect your Dad to live to stand trial?

  47. leftbehind Says:

    You should have rented the old guy a woman and none of this would have happened.

  48. shcb Says:

    I guess I don’t get the shoot people comment Enky. If you’re talking about the abortion doctor, I suppose we deserve that since they are in our tent, but no more so than you should be blamed for the enviro nuts that bomb car dealerships. But the Muslim that killed the soldier and the guy who shot up the museum and killed the guard seem to be more in line with the left’s beliefs. Before everyone jumps on me, these guys are all nut cases and none of us are responsible for their actions, but you brought it up.

    Every Republican president (and Clinton too) have been strong allies of the Jewish nation. This president that you all are so enamored with is the first in a long time to hang out with people like “the Jews won’t let me talk to him” Wright for the last 20 years, and has spent his entire time in office placating the Muslims. Jayson said recently that we should just let the Israeli’s take care of themselves, they are more trouble than they are worth; not the first time I have read that here. Now that is a long, long, long way from endorsing killing them (as you just inferred I/we do) but it is definitely in the opposite direction of conservatives.

  49. enkidu Says:

    wwnj – I didn’t bring up the Holocaust wwnj shooting incident. I was thinking of that wwnj who shot up the liberals in that church (no not the abortion doctor assassinated in his church, the other one). But since you bring it up, I have to say that is quite some wwnj jujitsu disowning one of your white supremacist brothers. I think most normal people think that right wing extremism like this guy is no where near the ‘socialism’ and progressive efforts that we ‘libs’ want Obama to work toward. Nazis were racist fascists, a right wing ideology. You know what made this wwnj so mad he would murder? Supposedly he was pissed They had reduced his Socialist Security check.

    Trying to tie some Muslim nutbar to the liberals/progressives is beyond stupid.

    I just started reading about your latest shooter: quite the tighty righty!
    http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/11/irrefutable-proof-that-holocaust-museum-shooter-wasnt-one-of-dhss-right-wing-extremists/

    This isn’t over by a long shot (unfortunate pun intended).

  50. shcb Says:

    I didn’t hear about the church shooting, was that the one a month ago?

  51. enkidu Says:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,392081,00.html

  52. shcb Says:

    you bring up a crazy guy killing someone almost a year ago? you do need a vacation. where are you going in Colorado?

  53. J.A.Y.S.O.N. Says:

    It takes some real fucking gall to suggest that Holocaust Museum shooter is in line with the left. It’s that kind of statement that utterly destroys the credibility of person making the statement. Likewise with Rush’s comments on the Socialism in National Socialism. Statements like that are basically saying to the listener ‘I think you are a moron. You will believe this, you will believe anything I say.’

    It’s a mistake to tie the ideology of a modern American racist in with either of the popular political ideology of either the Democratic or Republican parties picking up any overlap and drawing a conclusion is confusing causality with correlation.

    Same with the guy that shot the two soldiers. He did that because he was a leftist? Holy fucking shit… He shot them and cried out ‘Socialized medicine forever!’ and ‘Death to the free market!!!’ right? He was acting out of a perceived bias based on his beliefs in radical Islam, but I bet he was for card check too, right?

    Seizing on isolated facts or playing semantic games to pin blame on the other side’s ideology is not only childish, it is the both the most idiotic and lowest level yet achieved in the ongoing War to Blame the Other Side.

    I wrote that because viewed in the cold light of realpolitik, the state of Israel is not bring enough to the table in my eyes. More liberals used to support Israel than conservatives until the 6 Day War, likely because the amount of shit Israel’s territorial gains in the war caused? Likewise the main reason I’ve heard conservatives support Israel is that they’ve tied their wagon to the religious right and those folks believe the Jews have to return home before the end times can kick off. You’ll have to forgive me if I can’t get behind that. But right, we have to back everything they do unconditionally we must hate them and we’re actively seeking a second Holocaust…

  54. knarlyknight Says:

    You’re right Jayson, of course, and to extend the argument slightly we see anyone with a pinhead involved in “Seizing on isolated facts or playing semantic games to pin blame on the other side’s ideology…[that] is not only childish, it is the both the most idiotic and lowest level yet achieved in the ongoing War to Blame the Other Side.” Take Glen Beck for instance:

    “Our country is now vulnerable,” the operative Beck declares. “Those people who would like to destroy us — our enemies like Al Qaeda. They’d like to destroy us, and they will work with anyone. There are also people like white supremacists or 9/11 truthers that would also like to destroy the country. They’ll work with anybody they can.”

    In other words, the 9/11 truth movement, according to Beck, will work with al-Qaeda. If you read between the lines, Beck is calling for the government to dish out the same kind of violent response to the truth movement the CIA-created al-Qaeda received in Afghanistan or at Camp Gitmo. Beck is calling for murder and torture of people who disagree with the government.

    from: http://www.voltairenet.org/article160559.html

    Now contrast what Beck is saying against what 100’s of accredited architects and engineers are saying (towers did not “collapse”, see http://www.ae911truth.org/ or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO2yT0uBQbM&feature=player_embedded ) and other esteemed groups, including the “41 U.S. Counter-Terrorism and Intelligence Agency Veterans [who] Challenge the Official Account of 9/11″ (at http://www.voltairenet.org/article160100.html)

  55. knarlyknight Says:

    Enk – a comment of mine awaits moderation…

  56. shcb Says:

    Settle down, read what I said one more time, I agree with you. But just as you aren’t going to stand and have your side shit on, neither am I. Enky (and he’s in good company here) is blaming Rush Limbaugh? Has he never listened to Rush? (Enky is backtracking now that he was caught and is bringing up year old murders). But as ridiculous as blaming one philosophical side or the other for these demented killers, blaming conservatives like Rush of Jew hating needs to be defended.

    But what “leaders” of these groups say does have an effect on what people do, that should not make them responsible though. When a priest stands an the pulpit and goes on and on about the evils of abortion and how those performing them are murderers or Wright gets up there and goes on and on about “whitey” there is some little tiny, unstable fringe fraction of the population that will act on that. But that doesn’t make the preachers responsible, it is the cost of living in a free society. One last thing, I have found that these personalities would latch on to some other cause if you shut down the speech of what ever you consider the current hate mongers, they are looking more to feed their hatred than the cause (not all cases, but quite a few)

    Oh Enky, if you truly meant to be talking about the murders at the church, see how frustrating it is for someone to take you out of context and run with their point instead of yours even after you have corrected them

  57. shcb Says:

    what happened to Jayson’s comment?

  58. jbc Says:

    He asked me to delete it, so I did.

  59. shcb Says:

    ok, it was so weird, I posted at the exact same time as you deleted evidently, in the time it took refresh it was gone.

  60. J.A.Y.S.O.N. Says:

    I guess it doesn’t matter, because everyone read it anyway. I went in and approved it again…

    I felt, after I had gone down that road that there was no point. This is why: “But just as you aren’t going to stand and have your side shit on, neither am I. ” That’s it. That’s all there is to it. I find that to be a very bad approach Just like trying to tie these events into mainstream politics is a bad approach.

    No one is going to let their side get shit on eh? That’s exactly what’s wrong. You should let your side get shit on when it says or does something stupid. Instead we have to go forth with the position that our side is infallible, while the other side is nothing but wrong, and even dangerous. I’m sorry, but Rush says some genuinely stupid shit, but we can’t call him on it. I watched a little bit of Chris Matthews the other night and he was on what basically amounted to a witch hunt. Stupid shit. But a good Right Thinking Liberal or Conservative or whatever we are can’t ever say it.

    Because it’s all about ‘winning’ and it’s stupid. It’s stupid because as all our effort and energy goes into ‘beating’ the other side, we all lose because we stop looking for real solutions and dig trenches down the lines of ideology, all the while arguing that we’re the really rational ones. We can’t repudiate anything anyone on our side says, because they’re on the team, and we’re right all the time! So now we’ve become so defensive that be default we have to embrace the worst elements of our sides.

    And it’s funny, because that’s also why no one can ever win, because they’re always appealing to basest emotions and using the worst arguments.

    Glen Beck though, is a complete asshole and that’s being factual.

  61. leftbehind Says:

    Exactly.

  62. enkidu Says:

    I’m not backtracking wwnj. There is a pattern that seems pretty clear: wwnjs shoot people that make you angry. I asked – rather politely – that you folks stop shooting people you disagree with. Your lack of an answer leads me to believe you sanction right wing extremist violence (I’ve lost count of the number of death threats I’ve had from wwnj or others of his ‘ilk’).

    I blamed “hate radio, Glen Beck, Rush and the spew that is Newt”. Seems pretty accurate to me. I suppose it is bad timing, but I happened upon an article that showed the ‘liberal church’ killer laughing and smirking at his sentencing. The shooter listened to the same crap you do, the same hate speech, the same bullshit, and he said so. Clearly, unequivocably and verifiably in a journal he kept that the police discovered. These aren’t some lib fever dreams: these are the actual words and murderous deeds of wwnjs. Gosh that joke you growled about impaling me (or worse!) seems SO much funnier now! har har har! Now I get it!

    Maybe what made me think about that nutbar is the way he laughed at the judge when he was sentenced: har har har! He’d do it again if he had the chance.

    Please point out to me where I am threatening poor widdle Rush’s 1st Amendment rights. I just want you freaks marginalized to the very edges of society. A shrinking island of hate and intolerance that normal folk ignore but guard against.

    Your hate filled rhetoric is coming true. I bet there are more ‘isolated incidents’ (like the Murrah building bombing, doctor killings, cop killings, liberal church killings, protestor killings, and right wing extremist violence, this is a very incomplete list)

    You can try to disown the latest of these ‘isolated incidents’ but anyone with two brain cells to rub together can see for themselves where the violence is coming from. From you (and your ilk). It is factual to say he was more ‘right’ than ‘left’ (I never used R or D). You just look like a fool (correction, more of a fool) trying to claim this latest incident is from the left.

    When will your people stop shooting my people?

  63. leftbehind Says:

    Blaming any mainstream political ideology for the sorts of violence you’re all talking about shows your collective ignorance of fringe politics in this society. If you think Rush Limbaugh, or even Michael Savage, is the worst thing in the media, or that crazies of the sort we’re discussing here even bother with any pundits you’ve apparently even heard of, you live in a very sheltered little world, my friends. People like this museum shooter, for example, are people who stepped off the radar years ago, in regards to their relation to any political affiliation most people would even recognize.

  64. enkidu Says:

    jayson, please point out to me all the numerous incidents of left wing folks shooting up churches, assassinating doctors or killing people at the Holocaust museum. Oh right, some fringe lefties burned an SUV at a car dealership (to use wwnj’s example). Wow that is SO equivalent.

    I personally have had it with the false equivalencies.

    If you want to have a nice nuancy debate, please knock yourself out. I prefer to mock wwnjs off the public square. To pretend that progressives defend their views with the same blind hatred and violent fervor of the right is simply not true. Recall how many posters here are unhappy with the Obministration about torture prosecutions, bogus bailouts and healthcare ‘reform’ (hint, if the insurance industry is still making money off denying care, then it aint reform).

    There aren’t two sides to every issue.
    The world is not flat. wwnjs are violent assholes. Water is wet.

  65. leftbehind Says:

    …and blaming Rush Limbaugh for stuff like this abortion doctor’s murder is as ignorant as blaming Jane Fonda for the Weathermen.

  66. leftbehind Says:

    The Weathermen…now there’s an example of some left-wingers who knew how to advance a peaceful agenda…

  67. leftbehind Says:

    And what does it mean when the moderator of a thread dismisses the need or even usefulness of “nuancy debate?” I thought that’s what a blog was supposed to be about, “nuancy debate!” If this is just a forum for you to make fun of people you don’t want to debate with, why not just write a column that no one can and dispense with pretense of give-and-take altogether? Or is this just about massaging your own ego in public? Wait don’t tell me..!

  68. leftbehind Says:

    …and who in the world have you ever mocked off the public square, at least around here? You’re still arguing with the same people you’ve been arguing with for years now, and even people on your own side politically don’t seem to agree with you. If it weren’t for SHCB and myself, no one would even respond to you half the time.

  69. J.A.Y.S.O.N. Says:

    Well Enk if you want to put it like that…

    Wet is wet. Ok, so now you’re an Objectivist. So Objectivism is a philosophy that you’d consider a conservative philosophy. So Enk, you’re a conservative. False equivalency in three easy steps.

    Likewise your question about left wing violence. Leftists haven’t shot or blown anyone up in 20 years, but since wet is wet then you’re down the SLA and Weathermen? Afterall, you’re both leftists. Or you’d agree that FARC are the best thing that happened to Columbia? You’re creating a false equivalency here. You’re saying there is a right wing and a left wing. No moderates, no extremes, just a binary state. Everyone from a Blue Dog Dem to a radical UK-style Anarchist, they’re the left wing. Everyone from a neo-Nazi or fascist to the folks that thought they’d vote McCain, they’re the right wing; all of them the same as Von Brunn.

    Just like every practitioner of Islam is a dangerous radical bent on the destruction of the west. All of them right? Wet is wet. They’re all Muslims.

    False. Equivalency. And really, really stupid.

    They’re only wwnj’s to you. You don’t want to have the nuance debate? There aren’t two sides to every issue? Man, I hear that on Glen Beck, I hear that from Rush, I’ve heard the same from George W. Bush. If you’re not with us, you’re against us. Then you’re happy with keeping the debate at the level of idiocy, just hoping to scream louder? Playing that game is the thing that makes it come true.

    I can’t get behind the approach, regardless of the side.

  70. J.A.Y.S.O.N. Says:

    I just read your comment on the Hilzoy post Enk so… yeah. Forgive me if you’re blowing off steam on this thread, I really couldn’t tell.

  71. leftbehind Says:

    It’s safe to assume that he’s always blowing off steam, since that’s all it ever amounts to, anyway.

  72. enkidu Says:

    jayson, understood.

    Please note that I am not painting every conservative as a wwnj. Just the ones who espouse wwnj viewpoints considerably at odds with reality. Example, one of my elder brothers is a conservative, a R but one who is willing to reasonably debate and make common cause with other Americans. He is far far more religious than I am comfortable with, but that is his choice. He is antiabortion, I am pro choice (actually I am also anti-abortion, i would hope for a world where there are zero abortions, but sometimes medical necessity and quality of life make things more ‘grey’). We can have a reasonable discussion about real issues and try to see each other’s viewpoint without the ‘debate’ sliding into acrimony. My kayakign buddy is way more extreme an R, but I work really hard to ignore his anger and get thru to the good side.

    You are welcome to debate that the Sun goes around the Earth with wwnj and his posse of misinformed misanthropes, but I for one find comedy and reality much more entertaining. Plus I think you are stretching your analogy to describe me as equivalent to Glen (Bonkers) Beck. Conservatism as espoused by the guys who have the microphones is deeply disturbing.

    Going back to the Weathermen (who evidently never managed to kill anyone) and the SLA (I had to look it up, boy they sure are influential) for examples of lefty extremism… ummm that was like 40 years ago? The wwnj violence has been ratcheting up in the last year. In the last two weeks we’ve had two dramatic examples. These aren’t isolated incidents. Perhaps you watch Rachel Maddow (I don’t) does she call for the killing of her enemies? At a guess I would say not. Go watch any video of any crowd in or outside a Palin rally… yeah SO equivalent. um, not.

    jayson, i am curious why you had jbc pull your post?

  73. shcb Says:

    After the unibomber and McVeigh I made the rather dark comment to someone that the wackos on the right are just better trained and better shots than the wackos on the left. I believe the unibomber tried unsuccessfully to down a plane didn’t he?

    Jayson, I’ll try and be pleasant here. We have no choice but to choose sides and protect our sides, we have different objectives and priorities. You say we should come together so we can solve problems, that is admirable, but often we can’t even agree if something is or isn’t a problem, and when we do we can’t agree on the priority, so how are we going to agree on a solution?

    It is appropriate to criticize your side when they do something stupid. It seems I may have mistaken the event Enky was talking about, but let’s assume he was talking about the museum incident, blaming Rush for inciting that act would be wrong and I would hope you guys would jump on Enky for it. Beck is equally wrong, truthers want to destroy America? Now truthers actions, if left unchecked may destroy America, but that doesn’t mean that is their intention, stupid remark. I’ve only seen a handful of minutes of Beck’s shows but based on that sip of the ocean he is indeed an asshole.

  74. leftbehind Says:

    Two shootings is hardly a sizeable “racheting up” of violence – especially in a country of 304,059,724 people, at least 32,145,325 of which you would classify as “violent nutjobs” since they voted for John McCain. If “right-wingers” were as violent and crazy as you’d have us believe, wouldn’t there be riots and bombings in the wake of an Obama election, rather than a couple of shootings? ,

  75. leftbehind Says:

    If mainstream conservativism were so out of control and bloodthirsty that a mere Palin rally could insight the sort of murderous rage you’ve suggested several times, doesn’t it stand to reason that something bigger would have come of it than some nut with a handgun shooting an unarmed man in church and some 88-year-old neo nazi who couldn’t give two shits about Palin anyway shooting a security guard with a twenty-two?

  76. leftbehind Says:

    …and of course you don’t want to dabate anybody. You haven’t the slightest idea how. Isn’t the class clown always the dumbest kid in the room?

  77. J.A.Y.S.O.N. Says:

    I’ve watched Maddow. I’ve watched O’Reilly. I’ve also watched Hannity (Hannity and Colmes actually) and Olberman, whoever. I’ve been watching Wolf Blitzer a lot lately too, for what it’s worth. I never heard any of them say anyone should be killed.

    Right now, on the right I think there are some popular voices that are saying some irresponsible things. However I don’t think that the two recent shootings are their fault. The shooters were hardcore ideologs with some truly twisted beliefs. They weren’t average conservatives set off by Sarah Palin saying ‘Big brother is comin’ to getcha.’

    Enk, there was one guy in the that one crowd that yelled ‘Kill him!’ That guy was terrible. There was a dark undercurrent in that election on the Republican side. That’s not every registered Republican or everyone who went into the ballot booth and cast a vote for McCain. I really feel like you’re going back and forth on this. My point was, is it any more fair to say the Weathermen really represented the left? I don’t think it’s fair to say neo-Nazis represent the right.

    shcb, most of the problems I’m seeing with any kind of cooperative effort on things are the result of ideological bias, not even looking for any kind of compromise. What I’m talking about is maybe admitting the other side has a point or some ideas.

    I had him pull it, because I felt that the comments there were ultimately pointless in this argument. I’m always arguing that we’re too ideologically driven. Same argument, same net effect. However everyone read it and commented anyway, so I had jbc put it back.

  78. knarlyknight Says:

    So was it the lefties or the righties who put high-explosives in the WTC towers? http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

  79. leftbehind Says:

    I thought you said it was ZOG…

  80. enkidu Says:

    jayson, I never ever said every R is a wwnj. I will gladly pay you a kajillion dollars if you can dig up just once were I state “every R is a wwnj” I’m not backtracking (in my mind anyway), I just think some extremist right wing folk need to be laughed off the public square.

    Since shcb uses a acronym, I thought it should actually reflect his viewpoints. Sure I exaggerate for comparison and comedy. But really, can you point out any issue that confronts America on which shcb has been right? As in correct.

    knarls, i don’t know, but I would bet it might be the same group that formed Cheney’s assassination hit team? (we miss you Paul Wellstone!)

  81. leftbehind Says:

    Jason: To be fair, Enkidu has never said that every Republican is a violent nutjob: just every Republican with whom he has had any contact outside his brother and (now apparently) his mother, including his father, all of his father’s friends, anyone on this blog whose politics fall to the right of his on any issue, any Republican who holds or has held public office, anyone who attended a Sarah Palin rally, a significant percentage of the people who currently inhabit the Southeastern United States, the population of the state of Alaska…

  82. leftbehind Says:

    Seriously though, I think all of us agree with Ink that there are extremist right wing people who deserve to be discounted; it’s just that he tends to draw the line just a shade to the right of the MC5. SHCB is not that bad of a guy, and even if you don’t like his politics, there’s no call to lump him in with militia crazies and murderers. Unless your own social compass is that wack. Exaggeration for comedy’s sake, or because your own view of the world lacks proper nuance?

  83. leftbehind Says:

    I’ve known Enkidu for several years now, and over the course of our friendship, he has accused me of hitting people with tanks, making lamps out of human skin, engaging in pederasty, prostitution and “bareback pig fucking.” I have been equated with “genocidal racists,” murderers, child molesters, and neo-nazi’s. Keep in mind – we don’t actually know each other. The only thing he knows about me is the way I voted in the last couple elections, and that he doesn’t like it. Doesn’t that strike anyone else as a little odd?

  84. shcb Says:

    Jayson,

    When you say there is no compromise are you talking about here on Lies or in Washington? I thought the Republicans during the Bush administration were fairly easily compromised. The Republicans in this administration aren’t going to compromise as much since this administration and congress is so far to the left and they really have nothing to bargain with. You have to understand that compromise means I will give you something you want that I don’t want to give you in return for you giving me something you don’t want to give me. Maybe that exchange happens today, maybe down the road. As far as these pages go, I’m always willing to admit when I’m wrong (luckily that isn’t very often) and I will concede a good point when it’s made, but I’m not going to sacrifice my convictions. For one thing you have nothing I want. JBC has said he only gives authoring rights to people who hold a certain standard, so if I toe the party line will he give me those rights? Maybe say that man made global warming is our most pressing issue? I don’t want them that bad. People often confuse compromise with winning and losing.

  85. J.A.Y.S.O.N. Says:

    Enk I know you never said it, I read it as strongly implied.

    Washington.

    I have authoring rights because jbc is my friend from back in the day.

  86. shcb Says:

    That wasn’t my point but you wouldn’t have known that since I didn’t finish my thought very well there.

    One of the reasons you won’t find much compromise on a site like this is that no one has anything to offer the others, I suppose there is the occasional kind word or compliment but that is about it. JBC has something to offer but he is the only one. The Republicans at this time are just like the Democrats were for much of the Bush administration, they have nothing to give so can expect nothing in return. Now we can have a reasonable discussion about issues and I can give you a point here or there and you can return the favor but we aren’t compromising, we are agreeing. (that’s not exactly true, but you get my point)

    How the authoring rights ties in is that I could compromise my beliefs and JBC would give me those rights just as Republicans can turn into Democrat light and the Dems would give them something, the Dems would “compromise” after the R’s lost a part of their soul. But at this point the Dems are too far to the left. They can all agree we need to find a way to provide health care to some people that don’t have it, but Republicans aren’t going to “compromise” whether our health care should be 100% or 95% socialized that would be giving up too much of their soul, just as Democrats aren’t going to compromise that it should in the 10% to 5% range when the R’s are in power. Normally the argument has been centered around should it be say 30% or 50%. So there will be no compromise on these issues, the two sides are just too far apart, and oddly enough one of the reasons they are that far apart is the population is so evenly divided so they try and distance themselves from the other so they catch the few in the middle. The only thing that keeps them civil is they realize we are in for a period of power swings for the next few decades and one day they will be the party out of power.

  87. J.A.Y.S.O.N. Says:

    Right, that’s what I mean about being too ideological, in a nutshell.

  88. enkidu Says:

    shcb, jbc has given other conservatives authoring rights. Craig for one.

    I think he is loath to give you that sort of access because you’ll just spam the channel with fox/talk radio nonsense. I know it bugs you since you bring it up so often, but with your fossilized viewpoint, I doubt change will come to your mindset. Sad but true.

    I find your ‘it’s a 50-50 nation!’ shtick humorous. The way the Rs are going, they’ll be in the single digits by 2012. Keep up the good work of making yourselves completely irrelevant. I am sorry that Obama seems to think being the Great Compromiser is earning him any love whatsoever from the fringe (L or R). Both parties are on the decline, with independents like me being where elections are won or lost.

    But just keep pretending that its all them libs fault.

  89. shcb Says:

    But honestly Jason, I don’t know what you want. You want all those in power to make a priority list and work together to fix those issues. Like my weekend todo list; fix the leak in the fresh water line in the garden, trim around the trees and plant the rest of the garden. My wife will want me to paint the garden shed and fix the drip lines on the trees, my daughter will want me to fix her horn and brakes. And they both will want to go to the mountains for a hike, my wife wants me to go to a dog trial and I want to go to Taste of Fort Collins. All those things are admirable goals but there isn’t enough time to do all them so something will slip and someone will be disappointed, most likely me because whatever I get done will interfere with my NASCAR races.

    You say you want more compromise and you want less ideology, how do you propose to do that? Think it through carefully, my guess is that you will end up with something not too far from what we have now.

  90. J.A.Y.S.O.N. Says:

    Let me put it like this, in an extended analogy. A couple of years ago I read a book about Soviet science written in the 70s by a scientist who defected. Basically it was about why Soviet science lagged behind the west. The main thing was that the philosophy of Communism was the most important thing. For instance, all science had to be reconciled with dialectical materialism, cybernetics wasn’t studied because it was considered bourgeoisie science and so on.

    This is what I see us as a people doing politically. We’re against what we’re against and for what we’re for because of political ideologies. No one is really concerned with what works or what doesn’t they just want things to be run the ‘right’ way.

    So what I want is for us to stop doing that. Stop being ‘good Communists.’

  91. shcb Says:

    I guess I just don’t see it as big a problem as you do and don’t really have a solution for it. I don’t think it is as big a problem because I don’t think people are in lockstep as much as you seem to think. Bush stopped and was stopped legislating when he had complete control of the government just as Obama is getting some resistance from his own party. Socialized health care for instance, I would have thought it would have sailed through but it hasn’t, now Obama is begging for a compromise. We tend to reduce things to their simplest form and then complain about them from that level but they tend to be much more complicated and self correcting than we give them credit.

  92. J.A.Y.S.O.N. Says:

    Maybe things are proceeding on that level and I’m just not seeing it, always a possibility. If so it must be a closed door thing. When I hear Congresspeople talk I don’t hear a lot of reason.

  93. shcb Says:

    It’s more behind the scenes than closed doors, there’s no great conspiracy it ends up being more of a you scratch my back and I’ll scratch his, and she will send someone to scratch yours. Unless you have been involved with some legislation it’s hard to grasp all that goes on. In Colorado alone there are usually around 600 pieces of legislation per session, only a handful get much media attention. In many of the pieces that do get attention various deals are made, some overt, and some are done just as a course of business where one side gets to show its bluster and the other side gets to stomp their feet in feigned indignation but a pretty reasonable deal was hammered out ahead of time. A clause may be inserted in the bill for instance that one side knows they will compromise on, of course the other side knows this is throwaway provision and the first side knows the second side knows they know… Another common tactic is someone in a safe seat will either make an ass of himself to feed red meat to the faithful (which is probably the part you don’t like) or to vote with the opposition to show bi-partisanship (something I don’t like). All in all a lot of it is just theatrics.

    In a lot of cases however, the issues just tend to follow ideology, so we have the chicken and egg thing again, does ideology form the issues or do the issues form ideology.

  94. shcb Says:

    I should add that what I was talking about pertains more to the real nuts and bolts legislation, budget, regulatory issues and such. Not so much with emotional issues like say abortion, the death penalty, things like that, those issues tend to be what you see is really what is going on. For instance if a state decides to allow casinos the actual casino issue will be fairly straight up but all the bills to regulate those casinos (maybe hundreds of them) will have a lot of politics and posturing involved.

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