This Has Been Another Episode

of What Glenn Said.

Little steps, perhaps baby steps, but at least steps in the right direction.

45 Responses to “This Has Been Another Episode”

  1. ymatt Says:

    Just stepping in to make one comment:

    I must, after some consideration, agree with Obama’s actions here and his statement defending them. Yes, I believe that there were prosecutable, even evil, actions taken at the highest levels of government. But it cannot be denied that a majority of Americans supported those actions at the time — many would still support them today. That does not excuse them, but it is the reason why not seeking prosecution truly would be destructively divisive, even setting aside political polarization.

    The release of the documents sheds light on what happened, and will allow us to look back on (I believe) the ugliness of those actions. That, more than anything, will help ensure that it does not happen again. It’s just the sort of thing you would expect from Obama the idealistic pragmatist.

    You could make the counter-argument that Obama is ignoring the rule of law, even if it is in the service of the greater good, and that this was precisely what Bush claimed to do. But I refuse to treat as equivalent Bush’s secretive approval of inflicting suffering on human beings in the service of false security with Obama’s public (and politically costly) refusal to prosecute those crimes while revealing them in the service of effectively redirecting America’s course.

  2. knarlyknight Says:

    YMATT, your first paragraph appeared to be leading to the opposite conclusion to your concluding sentence of your first paragraph; nevertheless I see your logic. Myself, I was very impressed with the memos being released, to the point where my faith is almost restored (that truth and justice can triumph and actually become symphytic with Washington politics.)
    Now, how does one muster up enough courage to read these dreaded memos?

  3. shcb Says:

    Oh, now you guys wouldn’t want to do that, you have such a perfect record of not researching what you pontificate on it would be a shame to break that record. Besides they are mostly just debates on where the line of power is between congressional and presidential powers. What happens if you find out Bush was right and Obama hasn’t really changed anything, or what he has changed can be reversed in an instant? My suggestion to you guys is don’t take that chance, don’t read these documents. Besides, there is a lot there, 160 pages of mind numbing legalese. Stick to what you do best, emoting on things you know nothing about.

  4. knarlyknight Says:

    okay, thanks shcb.

  5. enkidu Says:

    shorter shcb: blah blah blah

  6. knarlyknight Says:

    That’s pretty much what I thought he said.

  7. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb Bush says people may find out that Bush is right about torture.

    Wrong.

    Anyone suggesting Bush was right about torture is a complete idiot or worse, a criminal. http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/04/19/2009-04-19_why_the_bush_torture_architects_must_be_prosecuted_a_counterterror_expert_speaks.html?page=0

  8. enkidu Says:

    I love the new GOP… completely divorced from reality.

    Over the weekend John Boner said “George, the idea that carbon dioxide is a carcinogen, that it’s harmful to our environment is almost comical. Every time we exhale, we exhale carbon dioxide. Every cow in the world, uh, well, you know when they do what they do, you’ve got more carbon dioxide.”

    While methane is 21 times more powerful a GHG than CO2 (but does break down into CO2 and other gases) and ignoring the fact that we ritually raise and slaughter untold millions of cattle each year, the zinger about CO2 being a carcinogen is just hilarious.

    Then you have Newt (great name for a redneck) Gngrch saying that US leaders never smiled when shaking hands with the evil soviets! Obama is blah blah blah! Of course there is tons of photographic and video evidence of US leaders shaking hands with all kinds of Bad Guys™ (my fav is the one of Rummy shaking hands with Saddam)

    Hey it’s early on Monday AM, pace your wingnuttery Rs.

    On second thought, you good ol boys jes keep on being yourselves.

  9. shcb Says:

    If one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results, I must be absolutely insane. For some reason I keep thinking maybe just maybe these guys know what they are talking about. If you had even glanced at these memos (I read them on Huffington, not Fox) you would know there are only about 85 pages and they don’t talk much about the powers of the President, in fact they make note many times saying they want to stay out of that argument, the 160 pages of that discussion were the memos relating to wiretaps (also on Huffington). If you had read the memos you would see that what we were doing wasn’t so much torture as simulated torture, the rubber wall is a good example. So now that everyone knows what we do and don’t do what happens when the very real possibility of needing to find out where the bomb is hidden? It will probably require real torture. I say very real because as the President is exchanging gifts with every tin horn dictator Iran and Korea are moving to nuclear reality at flank speed without so much as a veiled threat from us. You know you are in trouble when the French start to worry the President is too much of a dove.

  10. enkidu Says:

    even shorter shcb: blah blah blah

  11. NorthernLite Says:

    “What makes the United States special … is precisely the fact that we are willing to uphold our values and ideals even when it’s hard, not just when it’s easy,” Obama said.

    Although abiding by the rule of law can make battling groups such as al Qaeda more difficult, he added, it is ultimately why “we’ll defeat our enemies. We’re on the better side of history.”

    Yep, I still love ‘em.

  12. NorthernLite Says:

    Oh, and Happy 420!

    ~
    ~
    <////////////#

  13. shcb Says:

    Well, we’ll have to see how this works out for Obama, history isn’t on his side but who knows, maybe he’ll beat the odds.

    I found it interesting that Sarkozy said that Obama was very naïve in his dealings with these bad actors and that he thought that wile Bush was too unilateral in his quest to defeat his enemies, Obama is too unilateral in his quest to appease them. He also said that if the US doesn’t defeat these people who will? Who will indeed.

  14. shcb Says:

    Cheney is asking for the declassification of what information we learned and what plots were foiled by using these techniques, sound fair to me.

  15. enkidu Says:

    suddenly wwnj is all worried about what France has to say?
    lol!
    don’t get yer beret in a twist there lil ricki
    appeasement
    lol!

    funny how only a few years ago France was Old Europe! bleep France!
    FREEDOM FRIES!1!1!11!!!
    and he’s the CinC! We’re at WAR you treasonous seditious scum!

    I couldn’t give a crap what dish Snark-ozy is laying out, but suddenly wwnjs think we’ll suddenly go all Rethugglican if they threaten that France thinks *whatever* about Obama? Seriously you morans get more desperate every day. hilarious

    Since the election – which Obama won handily btw – Obama wants to raise the taxes of the richest (have you seen how income inequality has grown in the last few decades? they can well afford it) by just 3% (from 36% to 39% – not 51% wwnj! you and your Wingnutoverse ‘math’! lol!) and suddenly all the tea baggers go nuts (well nuttier anyway). Socialism! Fascism! Fruitarianism!

    Sit down, shut yer pie holes and please get the hell out of our way while we fix what you idiots broke.

  16. enkidu Says:

    especially you Dick Cheney
    stfu or we’ll put your ass in prison for your crimes
    maybe we’ll do it anyway, but I’d prefer it if you freaks just faded into the woods for a few years. maybe forever.
    go Galt.

    please

  17. shcb Says:

    That’s what is so funny, if Britian would have said that it would have hurt but to have France say our president is a wimp, a dangerous wimp, is just funny. The last war they won was against themselves .

  18. knarlyknight Says:

    What’s funny is that shcb thinks anyone here would give him any credence after repeatedly claiming that torture at Abu Ghraib was the result of “a few bad apples” when it was obviously endemic and as such had to be officially sanctioned at some higher policy levels.

    What’s funny is shcb still sticking up for the Worst Liar Ever:

    — “The United States is committed to the worldwide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example.” President Bush on UN Torture Victims Recognition Day 26 June 2003

    — “Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right and we are committed to building a world where human rights are respected and protected by the rule of law … Many have been detained, arrested, thrown in prison and subjected to torture by regimes that fail to understand that their habits of control will not serve them well in the long term.” Statement by President Bush released by the White House on June 26, 2005

  19. shcb Says:

    Well, we’ll see how this works out with Obama minding the store, it’s not looking good at this point, at least as far as Iran and Korea go. But we’ll see, I just hope the death toll is only in the thousands, and somewhere over there.

  20. shcb Says:

    But you see Knarly, that was the whole point of these memos, to see if these techniques constituted torture. Now it is obvious that they were on the edge or there would be no need to have asked the opinion. Putting up the terrorists in the local Holiday Inn and giving them back their bombs wouldn’t have needed a legal opinion.

    I know this is impossible for you to understand, or at least accept. Bush could make those statements because he had gone to the trouble of seeking legal advice. He had made the decision that the times and the severity of the matter dictated that he needed to push the limit of the law to protect American lives. This isn’t that much different than what Obama is now doing with some of this bailout money. He has decided that some degree of Fascism or even Communism (government ownership of private companies) is needed to protect the American economy. He may be right. Now, there is a point where we obviously cross the line, he is pushing up against that line right now, and I am sure there are memos on his desk just like these.

    If you had read these memos you would know that they went into great detail of case law, what is and isn’t well defined in regards to torture etc. They went into the medical personnel that would be available during these integrations, the number of times an the duration of the sessions, evaluations by physicians and psychologists before and during these sessions, and on and on.

    Now I know that none of this matters to you, you have made up your mind.

  21. NorthernLite Says:

    Are Republicans sniffing glue? Why are they using Dick Cheney to attack Obama? Obviously I don’t think highly of today’s Republicans/Conservatives, but I’m a strong supporter of an effective opposition. Seriously, could you find a worst spokesman for the GOP? Dick, Rush, Hannity… wow.

    How about Megan McCain? Now there’s an effective opposition leader. Talk about a woman with a bright future. Did you see her headline yesterday?

    Megan McCain: “Karl Rove is a Twitter creep.”

    lmfao.

  22. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb, pushing the line on what constitutes torture and searching out legal counsel who will support such extreme positions are actions that are exactly the opposite of this statement:

    “The United States is committed to the worldwide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example.” President Bush on UN Torture Victims Recognition Day 26 June 2003

    Dumbya, the Worst Liar Ever.

  23. enkidu Says:

    ummm shcb, during dumbya’s reign of error:

    North Korea tested a nuclear weapon…

    for all intents and purposes Iran won the Iraq war…

    bush was the one bailing out companies with no strings attached, no chance of being paid back and gave Paulson a $750B+ blank check…

    dumbya invaded Iraq, costing us trillions for a war based on lies and greed for oil and money…

    he neglected to do his bleeping job and let an entire American city drown while he ate ice cream cake with McCain…

    but when Obama wants to spend some debt on Main Street USA repairing our crumbling infrastructure, improving education and fixing (badly it seems) healthcare – the nuts and bolts of our economy – suddenly it’s “Fascism”

    man you are beyond nuts

    maybe wwnj is both drinking AND sniffing glue in the mornings now?

  24. enkidu Says:

    and let us not forget the single worst attack on US soil ever…

    epic fail

    it’s like that scene from Monty Python’s Life of Brian where the revolutionaries are meeting and one guy says “what have the Romans ever given us!” yea! well “the aquaduct” and sanitation… and the roads… irrigation… medicine… education… and the wine… oh yes the wine!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

    besides all these epics fails, what hasn’t the bushco junta bleeped up?

  25. shcb Says:

    So NL, the only good Republican is one that criticizes another Republican? By that measure the only good Democrats are Joe Leiberman and Ben Knighthorse Campbell.

  26. enkidu Says:

    don look now lil ricki, but it looks like San Francisco, Darwin, synthetic DNA and France might just have saved our asses:

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16989-yeast-and-bacterium-turned-into-gasoline-factory.html

    yep, CA scientists used Darwin’s theories and modern DNA analysis, combined with cutting edge DNA synthesis to create a potential solution to our addiction to Middle East oil. You stuff cellulose in one end and out the other you get fuel and fertilizer. You’ll have to read the link if you want to find out how your new bff France comes into the picture. I like how every single company linked in the article is in CA. LS9 is a local company that I have a passing acquaintance with as well.

    Early days, but this is the kind of innovation we need. Eventually solar, wind and other sources will predominate (burning stuff is so stone age), but the urgent need is to give the Saudis the heave ho and we’ll see the price of oil plummet.

  27. NorthernLite Says:

    shcb,

    No, it’s because she speak’s the truth. She’s saying exactly what needs to be done to repair the Republican party. You guys should listen to her.

  28. Steve Says:

    ymatt,

    It doesn’t matter what the public did or didn’t support at the time. That’s why we have laws: to curb our baser instincts. Furthermore, your claim that a majority of Americans supported those actions at the time needs backing up. This torture was done in secret, so how can you claim majority support for something that almost no-one knew about?

    Even further, if you claim that public support matters, a majority of Americans support investigation into the war crimes of the Bush administration: http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/20/prosecutions/index.html

  29. shcb Says:

    NL,

    Well, I read more of Megan McCain, she’s her father’s daughter on stilts; I can see why you like her. I certainly hope she isn’t the future of the Republican party. But who knows, maybe she is.

  30. shcb Says:

    I pretty much agree with everything in this piece

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/why-megan-mccain-is-wrong/

  31. knarlyknight Says:

    Of course you do shcb, it’s mostly tripe with a a few dog whistles and a couple dollops of bias.

  32. shcb Says:

    Of course it is, (from your point of view at least) it is certainly more insightful and analytical than NL’s critique of Meghan. She is a classic Liberal Republican, just like her father only with a young person’s idealism. Most people are fairly liberal in their youth, about half the people mature out of it and half don’t. Meghan is an incredibly beautiful, vivacious young woman that wants to be with the “in” crowd, (I haven’t heard her enough to know how intelligent she is) she also was impressed with the people that surrounded her on the campaign trail, bright, successful, dynamic Republicans. She likes both, and wants both, she simply isn’t mature enough to understand the reality that all the qualities that make those people she was impressed with on the campaign trail who they are also make them non hip, and they don’t want to be hip, and they don’t care that she wants them to be hip.

    She will have a bright future in the Republican party if she wants it, California would love someone like her, and we would love the nose count, but the rest of the party really isn’t interested in being liberal, we would just join the Democratic party if we did.

    So bottom line is she will either grow into conservatism or she will pout her way over to the liberals because the Republicans won’t heed her wishes, only time will tell but neither party is likely to change for one little cutie.

  33. enkidu Says:

    wow shcb! you really put the crazy to 11

    Just double down on crazier, more intolerant, more hate filled, more fat drug addled hate radio bullshit, more wars, more waste, more spending, more extremism, further to the right! Proudly defend the right wing hate groups and their extremism! Whine more about how the bush era DHS report is targeting Rethugs (it isn’t unless they are in one of these hate groups – hint, I don’t think you’ll find many greens, progressives or independents in these groups). Double down on tax cuts for the wealthiest and toxic food, water and air for everyone. Double down on calling anyone to the left of you a Fascist or Socialist or Commie pinko fag. Don’t forget to alienate anyone independent or who doesn’t Believe in your deification of Saint Ronnie. Keep threatening to Secede! Never change! Never acknowledge the tragic reign of error that you brought about. Never acknowledge just how badly your partisanship has hurt this country and our world. Don’t try to fix your messes, don’t try to forge a bipartisan approach to our future, don’t moderate your radical extremism one iota! More extremist and I’m sure I’ll suddenly be convinced to vote party line R. And finally, on Earth Day, make sure you bitch about how Climate Change is Al Gore’s plot to give yall the Socialism.

    So, in short, more of the same.

    Keep up the good work of making yourself, your bowel movement of a party and your hate filled ideology irrelevant. Any way to speed up getting all you folks to Go Galt?

  34. NorthernLite Says:

    heh, did anyone watch Jon Stewart last night? His piece on socialism in Sweden was FABULOUS.

    shcb, you’ve been right about socialism all along! You should see the havoc high taxes has reeked on Sweden’s population. Oh, and try to find an ugly girl during the clip…must be that # 1 ranked health/dental care…

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=225113&title=the-stockholm-syndrome

  35. enkidu Says:

    ya know, the Daily Show has been just as funny since the election
    that was my biggest fear in voting for Obama: will my fav comedy/news show jump the shark?

    and yeah, Ms McCain is pretty hot for a big girl

  36. shcb Says:

    So let’s look at the real numbers from the comedy skit. Using our trusty World Almanac 2007 Sweden’s GDP per capita was 71% of the United States, while the United State’s federal tax burden was 77% of Sweden’s. I really don’t want to be Sweden, we’re too close already. Of course that is just the federal tax burden.

  37. NorthernLite Says:

    yeah enk, Stewart is simply the master at dubunking right-wing crazy talk.

    As for this whole torture thing, I’m starting to see promising signs. Here’s the headlines I’ve been seing over the past couple days:

    -Obama: “Up to the AG to Decide if Prosecutions Proceed”

    -”‘No one is above the law,’ Holder says of torture inquiry”

    -”Report: Rice, Cheney endorsed use of waterboarding”

    It’s almost like at first Obama was thinking let’s just move forward and work together to fix this country. Then Cheney and friends start running their traps in the media, bad mouthing pretty much everything Obama is doing. So Obama says to himself, ‘alright, you want to fight, let’s fight muthafuka’.

    Dick Cheney belongs in jail. Please send him there.

  38. enkidu Says:

    Actually NL, that would put Obama as reacting to R thuggery. I think the new team is a heck of lot smarter than that. Obama is giving every public opportunity he can to Rs to help remove the stain of the bush regime and fix the economy (at the same time with all the other catastrophes the shrubco managed to screw up).

    Obama plays basketball, loves the game. I read an interesting article (Time? pravda? fruitarian news? ;-) where his brother in law talked about his game. Obama isn’t a show off or an I’m the hero! guy, he passes the ball when it’ll help the team score. It’s about controlling the ball. The Rethugs don’t have the ball and are busy playing dodgeball while the game is actually basketball.

    I think they gamed it out: so do we lead with punishing the law breaking scumbags who ruined our country? or do we walk the walk of actually trying to get the Rs on board and start fixing the many Katrina-scale mega-clusterfucks the Rs have left us (only then lower the boom on the torture architects)? Do we lead with gays in the military and legalizing weed? I think the answer is they realize they must succeed, we must fix the broken economy and legal framework. We must return to our founding fathers’ principles and restore the rule of Law. And we will. Rome wasn’t built in a day…

    I think Obama and his team will restore confidence that government can and should have a role in the real world. Confidence in our institutions like banking (regulatory), education (school funding and natl guidelines/standards), employment (heck of a job bushie!), energy (goodbye ME oil), the environment (climate change isn’t about giving wwnjs Teh Socialism), societal compact (the rich have had a huge run up in wealth, they can share a bit more or move to some wwnj hell hole, I suggest Poland, plenty of skinheads etc so you’ll fit right in).

    So far I am disappointed with a few things but greatly encouraged by the overall shape of developments (except healthcare).

    Look at it this way: these crimes were committed up to 7 years ago, some perhaps just a few months ago. If you can’t wait a hundred days for the investigations to begin, then perhaps you are expecting too much. If they can’t fix the other megacatastrophes shrubco left behind, the likelihood that they will have public support for slamming some of these creeps in prison will be nil (or into the negative numbers).

    Standing up for our principles may mean you have to delay justice. If only for a little while. I think it is smart to be a reluctant prosecutor of bush era crimes. Too zealous an approach will destroy the whole bipartisan effort he and his team have crafted. Scorn me for being a pragmatist without moral or ethical backbone, but I think if the goal is to put the criminals on trial, you have to get some of the other things fixed first or you won’t stand a chance of actually exposing these horrors to the sunlight. We must. We can. And we will. Steady lads. Steady on.

    America doesn’t torture (any more).

    thx Obama

  39. NorthernLite Says:

    Yes, good points enk. And maybe that’s what those sleazy douchebags Cheney and Rove are trying to do: draw Obama into a huge partisan fight so he fails at fixing all the problems and is seen as just another partisan politian.

    I’m glad Obama is smarter than them. And me :)

  40. knarlyknight Says:

    Makes sense to me, Enk! And infinitely more refreshing than more wwnj crazy percentages in shcb’s previous post about cash.

    I haven’t been able to find Stewart’s Sweden clip (NL, can you help with that?, I can’t find it on Comedy Network either) but I’d bet he spoke of more important things than just cash.

  41. shcb Says:

    Cash?

  42. NorthernLite Says:

    knarls,

    -Go to: http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca

    -Click on “Video Library”

    -Select “The Daily Show with…”

    -Select “Full Episodes”

    -April 21/09

    -On the far right you might see (shcb lol j/k) “clip 2″ or “stockholm syndrome” – that’s the clip you’re looking for.

    Enjoy. Let me know how you make out.

  43. enkidu Says:

    sorry NL, didn’t mean to impugn your intelligence
    I am just trying to get the ‘hang em now!’ crowd to realize that rushing things may be counterproductive. I want justice done, but a rush to bring these creeps into the docket may backfire, just though it may be.

    Let the pressure build, let the nation see what was done in our name.
    Then let the chips fall where they may.
    Once we have a grip on a few of the other crises.

    wwnjs won’t admit that the most valuable info from these guys came BEFORE we tortured them. Torture undermines our case to moral superiority. It provides tons of bad info (they say anything to make it stop). And it gives the bad guys a legitimate recruiting and rallying issue.

  44. knarlyknight Says:

    you can’t pay yer federal taxes with good looks or brains, shcb.

  45. knarlyknight Says:

    NL, thanks for the instructions. Got it now.

Leave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.