The Unbearable Lightness of Being Bobby

Bobby Jindal gave the GOP response to Obama’s speech and what a disaster lil Bobby’s speech was! His awful delivery, Gomer Pyle wit and GOP world view made for a Bizarro-World counterpoint to Obama’s speech.

Amongst his canned anecdotes was a claim that “During Katrina, I visited Sheriff Harry Lee, a Democrat and a good friend of mine. When I walked into his makeshift office I’d never seen him so angry. He was yelling into the phone: ‘Well, I’m the Sheriff and if you don’t like it you can come and arrest me!’ I asked him: ‘Sheriff, what’s got you so mad?’ He told me that he had put out a call for volunteers to come with their boats to rescue people who were trapped on their rooftops by the floodwaters. The boats were all lined up ready to go – when some bureaucrat showed up and told them they couldn’t go out on the water unless they had proof of insurance and registration. I told him, ‘Sheriff, that’s ridiculous.’ And before I knew it, he was yelling into the phone: ‘Congressman Jindal is here, and he says you can come and arrest him too!’ Harry just told the boaters to ignore the bureaucrats and start rescuing people.”

Only problem? It wasn’t true. As in he wasn’t in Sherrif Lee’s office “during Katrina”.

Oh and FOXnews claims that Bobby couldn’t attend CPAC because he was busy with State Business (he was actually at Disneyland with his family).

If this is the best you have GOP, prepare for a long time in the wilderness. A long, long time. Hopefully forever.

141 Responses to “The Unbearable Lightness of Being Bobby”

  1. leftbehind Says:

    I was kind of impressed with this post, until I googled the story and realized that it was old news, since all the other political blogs had been on this since the 26th. Did the blog that you paraphrased this item from provide any specific sources, or are you just going with the Daily Kos’s circumstantial argument? I’m not saying that he didn’t lie, or that no one has done the homework to prove he did – but you haven’t, I’m quite sure.

  2. shcb Says:

    What I have read is that on one hand the sheriff did not know the boats were being held up until 7 days after the storm and on the other hand Jindal was out of town when the storm hit. Now both of these points are being used against Jindal on separate sites. It seems to me they may be canceling each other out. If you notice he said “during Katrina” he didn’t say the day after as some of those criticizing him are pointing out. Let’s face it, in times like this people aren’t walking around with court reporters having every word transcribed; and they shouldn’t be worried about such things at such times.

    The sheriff has said that Jindal was very helpful during this time so I think this is really a non issue in any case, but what are you going to do?

  3. knarlyknight Says:

    Thanks 4 tuning me into this,I trying to break from US politics as it is all so saad.

    shcb, What r u2 do? Laugh! Laugh at your collosal mess of a post ttrying to find excuses, & laugh some more as I read more about the story and laugh at other’s trying to explain it
    like this one … http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxHoWEdcbcM

  4. shcb Says:

    Paul Harvey died.

    We all knew it was going to happen, his appearances on his own show have been getting less and less frequent in the last few years and even more so since his beloved Angel passed. Even though we all knew time was short it stills comes as a shock. I’ve been reading the hundreds of well wishers on various sites today. There is little sadness over his passing, more sadness of the writers for their own self interest. This is a sign of a life that was lived to the fullest, had he died twenty years ago there would have been so much more for him to accomplish, so many people that would not have heard him every day at noon, not shaken their head in disgust one moment and then smile in anticipation as you heard “now wash your ears out with this” you knew something good was right around the corner, and it was going to told to you by a trusted friend.

    My grandpa listened to Paul every day, we would drive through the melon fields checking on the migrant workers as they weeded and picked the cantaloupes, he was a hard old German that could bark out orders and yet he had a soft spot, it just surprised you when it came out. But Ricky had to be quiet in the front seat of the old pickup for 15 minutes when Paul Harvey came on. My memory of his daughter was her as a housewife standing over the sink looking into the backyard with a cigarette in her hand while she listened to Paul Harvey on her Sony radio with Duracell batteries. We lived in Kansas, no one had heard of Sony, it was made in a far off land called Japan, but those copper top batteries were all she would use, they lasted longer.

    But the constant was always this man with the funny voice that just talked, and he didn’t talk about anything important to an 8 year old, and yet these adults seemed to stop everything they were doing to listen to him. Many years later I was sitting in the lunch room of the Technical school I was going to listening to Paul Harvey, not because I wanted to but because that is what the secretaries played on the PA system every day, we were a captive audience. Now we were young, it was the seventies, the liberals were offering free love, “if you can’t be with the one you’re with…” revolution was in the air, we had beaten the US government in its war in Vietnam, sex, drugs, and rock and roll, the government will take care of us because we have a birth right to be taken care of, it was so much easier and more fun to not take responsibility for one’s actions but to just let someone else take care of it. Paul Harvey was the opposite of that, but we sat with the janitor at lunch every day and he hung on every word from Harvey and in his measured old man way (he was probably 30) explained that one day we would grow up and appreciate what Paul Harvey was saying.

    One day Paul told a story of a highway patrolman that had pulled a young man over for a routine stop. The man grabbed the officer’s gun from him and fired point blank. The officer fell to the ground and the criminal proceeded to pump round after round into the dead officer’s body. Several hundred yards away a man and his son had stopped at a rest area on return from a hunting trip and witnessed the whole thing, the man grabbed his deer rifle and dropped the criminal with one shot. “will he be charged with shooting this cop killer?” a long trademark pause “no, that’s not the way we do things in Oklahoma” . All us young punks sitting around the table nodded our approval and I looked at that janitor with just a tinge of a grin around the corner of his mouth and realized we had finally gotten it. The police weren’t the enemy, the bad guys were, there is right and wrong and the hippies and liberals were wrong; I became a conservative that day.

    We will never hear “Paul Harvey… Good Day!” again, and that is sad, but we were blessed to hear it once.

  5. Craig Says:

    Forever, John? Two things will always be true: One, that Democrats are politicans, just as Republicans are. Two, that absolute power will eventually corrupt absolutely.

    One party rule is dangerous in anyone’s hands.

    Thankfully, the people have a funny way of calibrating things when a party gets too full of itself (i.e. the democratic end to Bush’s alleged theocracy and his dark control of the election process) ;>)

  6. leftbehind Says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOciH607t_c

  7. Steve Says:

    I, for one, would rather have a new 3rd party than have the Republicans ever come to power again.

  8. enkidu Says:

    craig, I posted this btw, not jbc
    hey how is the Whig Party doing nowadays? The Know Nothings? The Looking Back Party? The Nullifiers? Free Soil Party?

    I hope that Rs spend a long time listening to Rush. He is your leader. Continue to follow him over the cliff. Once you reach bottom, proceed directly towards the sea. Once at the bottom of the sea, start digging a hole. Proceed to center of the Earth. Victory!

    I think a new three way split might work: Liberals/Progressives, Democrats and Conservatives. The Republicans can sell concessions at the edge of that hole in the bottom of the sea.

  9. Craig Says:

    Ahh, sorry for the misidentification. I guess I should have picked up on the fact that John would probably not have been quite so hyperbolic!

    As I said, it’s funny how the unlikely becomes very likely in the political world. When Bush was first elected, the pundits were all wondering how many years the rudderless Democrats would wander in the wilderness and what retread wannabe could possibly be expected to represent the future of the party.

    The tide started turning in four years, picked up speed in six years and the turnaround was complete in eight, thanks to a fresh face that no one could have imagined years earlier. So goes the typical political to-and-fro.

    I hope Obama can at least get the economy turned around in the next several years, even if it means his re-election. But you can book this: the dominant party will get fat and lazy. Scandals will erupt. A few White House officials will get implicated in various degrees of wrongdoing, either criminal or ethical. Democratic members of Congress will see an uptick in generally poor behavior and arrogance. And so on.

    Why? Because Obama is really a poor president? No. Because he and his administration and his Congressional majority are politicans and career players/insiders. JUST LIKE IN ANY OTHER ADMINISTRATION. The economic meltdown will (hopefully) be far enough in the rearview mirror that the fickle “muddled middle” of the voting public will start to wish for less government debt and intrusion, etc etc.

    Republicans will eventually find their message, and will make inroads with their appeal for financial restraint and smaller govermment and the oft-used “traditional values”. A face will come out of the crowd that can be a symbol of another wave of “change”. And the ever-moving pendelum will move to the right.

    It’s just the way politics seems to go in this Country. Thinking that political parties’ fortunes and people’s perceptions of them, will become static for years on end is very unrealistic.

  10. enkidu Says:

    Craig, looks like you might want to get that New Conservative Party started, as the Republicans are in a spiral that may take them to zero (well, not zero, there are always some die hard nutjobs and extremists).

    I read that Patrick Leahy wants a Truth and Reconciliation commission to find out what the heck happened, but no prosecutions. I was surprised to hear that Nancy Pelosi found her spine and is in favor of prosecutions if our Laws were broken. Change. I hope for the better. I am not asking for static, I want your pendulum of Ds vs Rs to be destroyed completely. Progress isn’t served by sticking with 1950s ideas. Or antique religions.

    Complete paradigm shift.

  11. enkidu Says:

    lil Bobby went on Larry King last night:
    “I think Rush is a great leader for conservatives.”

    bwahahaha! o god yes, please keep saying stuff like that! rush rush rush! 24/7/365 with the fat drug addict perv leading your party (maybe rush and diaper dave vitter can be your next ticket – sarah payless can be secretary of erectile dysfunction meds)

    priceless

  12. leftbehind Says:

    Inky – The only real difference between you and Rush Limbaugh is that there are people who actually listen to Rush Limbaugh. Even your names are kind of similar, in that Enkidu, from the Epic of Gilgamesh, is historically one of world literature’s earliest homosexual archetypes, and Rush is a progressive rock band from Canada, which is a lot like being homosexual.

    Craig – keep it straight! He’s not John when he’s posting as Enkidu! He’s just speaking for John…

  13. leftbehind Says:

    …and let’s talk some more about this “paradigm shift” of yours. As much as you, I and a lot of other people are sick of the “Ds vs Rs” situation, I can only imagine what kind of “shirts vs skins” food fight someone like you has in mind to replace it.

  14. NorthernLite Says:

    Actually there’s another pretty big difference: Democrats aren’t rallying behind and taking orders from Enkidu like the Republicans are doing with Rush. But if you think that’s the direction your party should be going in, that’s your choice.

    You would think it would bother people to have their party hijacked by an obese drug addict. I know it would bother me if my actual party leader was forced to apologize to some fat-ass, pill-popping radio personality.

    I must admit though, it is very fun to watch all this.

  15. leftbehind Says:

    You’re absolutely right – nobody is rallying behind Enkidu. As for Rush, it is a tragedy when any media talking head wields the kind of power he apparently does, but I doubt that influence is as long-lived as he would like to think it is. The truth of the matter is that no real leader has emerged within the Republican Party at the moment, and Rush has the biggest public forum to take advantage of the confusion. It’s kind of like the relationship Moveon.org tried to cultivate with the Democrats before they started winning elections. Once the Republican party, which is not my party any more than it is yours, decides who their actual leader is, Rush will become a figure of Enkidu-esque proportions.

  16. leftbehind Says:

    Besides all that, Steele should apologize for calling Rush Limbaugh “an entertainer.” That would imply that Rush Limbaugh was “entertaining…”

  17. leftbehind Says:

    …and I’m sure it does bother people to see their party hijacked by a fat addict, but Ted Kennedy has been in office for decades – isn’t it kind of late to start crying about it now?

  18. NorthernLite Says:

    I would have went for Michael Moore…

  19. knarlyknight Says:

    Please forgive me for interrupting this incredibly insightful dialogue about the depths of despair and depravity having taken hold of the Republican party, but I’d wonder if anyone down south has heard about this “hot” issue unfolding here about our RCMP use of tasers. In short, the police have done a 180 turn on using tasers, and now will only Taze a person if thye pose an imminent danger and shall not do so simply as a means to control a person.

    The grey area is probably on what constitutes an imminent threat. The (sick yet still) entertaining aspect of this is that prior to the new policy, a relatively simple Polish immigrant travelling for the first time on a plane to live with his mother became confused, angry and agitated after his 18 hour (?) flight and an inability to find anyone who could speak Polish after over nine hours of wandering around the Vancouver airport pre-customs arrival area, while his mother went home after there was no sign of him getting through the arrivals. The sad part is that he was tazered to death with 5 blasts, because he had earlier been throwing / breaking things and not following instructions (he did not know English) and then brandished a stapler, and the other four Tazer blasts were apparantly because he wouldn’t stop writhing in agony and screaming in pain.

    My question is whether or not it is possible to respect a police officer who:
    admits that a disoriented, unkempt, overweight man standing 15 feet away scared him, because the big scary man was armed with a common office paper stapler (yes, you can assume it was loaded), and that scared him enough to blast him 5 times with a tazer, despite there being three other police officers present?

    By the way, the other officers have admitted to being scared of the stapler too.

    ‘He had the stapler open … he was in a combative stance’ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090302.wtaserwitness0302/BNStory/National/home

  20. leftbehind Says:

    Good one!!! It’s interesting that you should bring Micheal Moore up in light of the present conversation, since there was a time when a lot of folks on the left (the protest crowd, especially) would have loved for him to lord over Harry Reid the way Limbaugh has lorded over Steele. Who knows, had John Kerry have won in 2004, Moore might have ended up commanding a similar position to that Limbaugh currently enjoys. Republicans cowtow to Limbaugh because he’s an entertainer, but he’s an entertainer who can deliver votes; Moore ended up as a disappointment – an entertainer who assured the Dems over and over again in print, on film and over the internet that middle America loved John Kerry and that 2004 was sealed-deal, though in the end his touted cultural significance and influence were no factor at all.

  21. leftbehind Says:

    Fascinating story Knarly. Why don’t you go tell it on a Canadian blog where someone actually gives a shit?

  22. knarlyknight Says:

    True to the moniker, Leftbehind is at least 4 years out of date: Moore was a very early supporter and big promoter of Obama.

  23. leftbehind Says:

    In 2004?

  24. leftbehind Says:

    That was when Moore made his last big political impact, in the wake of “Farenheit 911.” Or was “Sicko” as culturally significant and no one noticed but you?

  25. leftbehind Says:

    Moore went on a nationwide tour in support of Kerry and made what amounted to two movies about it – what was his involvement in the Obama campaign again?

  26. knarlyknight Says:

    Moore did quite a lot There was lots of major newspaper and other media coverage in April 2008 when he lent his support, did the talk show circuit, mainly Larry King if I recall correctly:

    http://video.google.ca/videosearch?hl=en&q=michael%20moore%20obama&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

  27. knarlyknight Says:

    didn’t realize you people had no tasers, staplers or police. sorry.

  28. leftbehind Says:

    Yes and Hayden Panettiere made an internet commercial for Obama that more people saw, and definitely more people paid attention to. By the 2008 election, Moore was a spent force.

    When Kerry ran in 2004, Moore was the soon-to-be Academy Award-winning director of one of the most discussed films of the year – a film which would gross practically $120 Million dollars and launch Moore’s nationwide tour in a bid to lend his considerable cultural cache to the Kerry campaign. By the time Obama came barnstorming across America in 2007, Moore was fresh from the release of Sicko, which made only $24 Million at the box office (less than half the income of “Dan in Real Life” – no, I never heard of it, either) and on the cusp of releasing two additional movies that were either barely even released in this country (“Captain Mike Across America”) or went straight to video (“Slacker Uprising.”)

  29. shcb Says:

    Knarly,

    I think it would be a shame to limit the use of such a tool that has saved the lives of so many mentally ill people (I don’t care about the criminals) and has saved so much injury to police for an isolated incident. From your description is sounds like the policemen picked the wrong profession, or there is more to the story.

  30. leftbehind Says:

    It’s funny to think about it , but Moore’s popularity seems to have gone down with George Bush’s rather than rise as Bush’s fell. By the time Obama came along, the country seemd as weary of Moore as they were of Bush. In 2004, Moore was, for instance, courted by the DNC, who seemed respectful of Moore’s influence and wary of the gaggles of protesters who seemed to gravitate towards him as the convention crowds gathered. Even as the protesters were sequestered by the police under an overpass near the convention hall, Moore was welcomed inside. By the Larry King appearance, he was a man far removed from the center of political activity. He was just some guy hawking a movie and trying to eek a few minutes of attention on the coat tails of a political juggernaut that really didn’t need or seek his help.

  31. leftbehind Says:

    …and of course we’ve got police here, but they’re not Canadian, so staplers don’t scare them so bad.

    Seriously, though – and this may come as shock to someone such as yourself who spends so many hours over-analyzing the minutae of other people’s business the way you do – but what happens to some Polish guy in Canada is really of no real concern to anyone down here. It’s just none of our business. I mean, even Canadians don’t pay a lot of attention to what happens in Canada – I mean, you don’t, so why would we? I know this taser thing is probably some first manifestation of a World Shadow Police crackdown that’s going to put us all in re-education camps where we’ll be forced to drink flouridated water and read Popular Mechanics but…hey…if Iraq has taught us anything, it’s that we need to mind our own business and let the savages tase each other if they want to. If we’re supposed to let Third World dictators throw people feet-first into wood chippers and not do anything about it, I reckon we can let the Moiunties tase a guy…

  32. knarlyknight Says:

    Wow, Lefty sure get worked up about stuff. I just thought it was entertaining that 4 cops (bullet proof vests, billy clubs, hand guns, and a tazer) would each admit they were scared of a guy with a stapler. The rest was just background.

    shcb, you’re right that there’s much more to the story, thought I’d spare you the minutae. My take is that the cops were not experienced, not too bright, and eager to deal with the guy fast so they could do something less annoying. I’d agree with your points about it being an isolated incident, except they aren’t isolated tasers have been used by cops on uncooperatvie patients in hospitals, to remove an old sick man from his bed who was being evicted, etc. So this particular isolated incident is a good thing as it has exposed police lying about the circumstances of taser use and has resulted in reforms where tasers are only being engaged when a threat is present as opposed to person or crowd control.

    So the question remains, is a lone middle aged muggle with a loaded stapler a threat to 4 armed and athletic police officers with body armor? I think not, but Lefty seems to think so.

  33. leftbehind Says:

    Wow, I guess you’ve got a point. If the guy was a “muggle,” why were the police involved in the first place? Why didn’t somebody call Harry Potter to put a spell on him?

  34. leftbehind Says:

    I didn’t even know you guys had cops up there, you all get along so well. Maybe I’ve just watched “Bowling for Columbine” too many times.

  35. knarlyknight Says:

    We’ve got our problems, big problems…
    http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=rcmp+chase&hl=en&emb=0&aq=2&oq=RCMP+#

  36. knarlyknight Says:

    Oops, wrong link

    Here’s the big problems: http://www.break.com/usercontent/2007/10/police-chase-moose-down-street-391228.html

  37. leftbehind Says:

    If that had happened in the US, that moose could have sued the Police Department,

  38. shcb Says:

    It is belaboring the obvious to say we don’t have all the facts but judging from what we know I think this was the exact proper time to use a taser, there is no life threatening threat that would require the suspect to be killed, a crowded area, full of glass that could injure the suspect, the police or bystanders if the police try and fight the man etc, etc. When a uniformed policeman pulls a gun on you, even a taser, that is sort of a universal language for you to calm down. Perhaps the cop(s) over reacted after that, but if the guy keeps coming after you, you keep shooting. I really don’t see how the new guidelines would have stopped this. This seems to be a classic case of people overacting to an undesirable outcome instead of looking at the event for what it was. Unfortunately this new regulation will probably make a cop think twice about tasing someone and either get himself hurt or have to kill the suspect instead.

    And so it goes.

  39. shcb Says:

    To the point of Rush being the leader of the Republican party; Rush is more accurately leader or at least the spokesman for the conservative movement, someone has to be, it used to be William F Buckley, now it’s Rush. Now the home of conservatives is the Republican party, it is also the home of moderate conservatives, moderate libertarians and some single issue liberals. After the last loss the party is reacting, they have chosen to move to the right and have moved into Rush’s arms. He has a proven track record in winning elections, remember 1994? This happened to the Democrats in the last four or five years as well. Soros took over the Democratic party and they won in the biggest way. Now they have elected people that have set them up for a loss, or moderation. Look at what has happened with this bill to allow judges to rewrite mortgages in the last couple days. You moderate too much you lose the base and it gets muddled enough you lose some of the middle and the election turns on a couple hundred hanging chads.

    The fact is we just don’t have anyone that is a great leader right now on either side of the isle. You can be a leader with substance but you have to have a combination of style and substance to be a great leader, and a desire. Obama and Palin have the style but not the substance, Hillary has some substance but no style, Huck has a little of both but not enough of either, Mitt has enough of both in other walks of life but seems to lose it in the big leagues. Rush has the style and substance but not the will, Soros has the substance but not the will or style. Harry and Nancy just have the will. Really, think about it, forget about who the Republicans are going to trot out there in 3 years, if Obama falls on his face who do the Democrats have waiting in the wings, Biden?

    History shows this is the norm not an aberration, this is one reason common people need to be able to take care of themselves, true leaders are hard to find.

  40. NorthernLite Says:

    Obama national approval rating: 70 – 80%

    Palin national approval rating: 30 – 40%

    Only a retard would compare the two.

    And the more Rush opens his mouth, Obama’s ratings seem to go higher. But that’s okay, you just keep right on ignoring this. Tee-hee.

  41. shcb Says:

    But I wasn’t comparing approval rating, I was comparing fitness for leadership, in my opinion. I think Obama is closer to 60% but that doesn’t matter. Soros probably has an approval rating of 5% because no one other than folks like us that need to get a life have heard of him. That doesn’t mean he isn’t accomplished or fit to be a leader, he and Rush would take a cut in pay and would be accountable so they simply don’t want to be leaders, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t qualified.

  42. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb,
    Your opinion on the tazer at Vancouver airport was astounding for its errors. For one, the public was not at risk he was walking around a deserted area for hours behind safety glass. Therre’s no appetite here about this issue so I won’t point out all the rest of your errors and wrong conclusion. Note that, again, you have come down on the side of brutality and treating people like cattle – you have completely overlooked any other decent approach to the problem of this exhausted and confused man that would have involved an iota of compassion or humanity.

    If you want to comment further on this I suggest you look closer at the facts.

  43. NorthernLite Says:

    Too funny:

    http://www.imsorryrush.com

    Seriously, who’s the real leader of this party?

    Btw, I was in Puerto Vallarta for two weeks, did anyone miss me? :)

  44. shcb Says:

    love it there, really enjoyed los calatos and the zip lines. I will never parasail again, too scary.

  45. knarlyknight Says:

    NL,
    Thought you’d given up on these idiots, b4 u left you said there was no point now that Bush was gone or something like that. Figured that you’d gotten a life or something. Sorry that it was just temporary, even though the diatribe got odiferous in your absence. Welcome back and thanks for the “i’m so sorry Rush” link, the statements with their apologies on the RHS bar enlightening.

  46. leftbehind Says:

    I didn’t notice you were gone, but welcome back.

  47. shcb Says:

    Ok, I read the article. Sounds like the police acted exactly as they should have. Flying from Denver to Hong Kong is about that same amount of time, from the time you get up in the morning to the time you get to bed is 28 to 32 hours and I was able to keep under control as were the other 400 people on the plane, and flight 802 makes the trip every day. I don’t speak Chinese but I was always able to communicate what I wanted, as the article says, hand signals work well. I also carry a translator with me, 20 bucks, you find the phrase in your native tongue and point. He is in an airport for god’s sake, of all the places on earth airports are the easiest to find help if you need help. You walk up to a policeman and calmly do what ever you need to do to communicate. Once they know where you are from, it’s on your ticket, point, they can get someone that can speak your native tongue, even if they have to call the consulate, we live in an age of cell phones.

    We needed to get from the Peak back to Hong Kong Central so we could take the train back to the airport and had a cab driver that didn’t speak English, so he just handed me his cell phone, I told his dispatcher where we wanted to go and handed the phone back to him, I didn’t start throwing things.

    This is one of those cases where you are fixated on the stapler like people get fixated on the number of shots fired. Putting this man on the ground was priority one. Obviously all the “humane”, “non violent” options had been tried, that is why there were 4 officers there. You want an outcome that wasn’t on the table because the violent man had tossed those outcomes on the floor. The outcome is sad, but place blame where it belongs.

  48. leftbehind Says:

    Here’s the real question: what should they have done?

  49. leftbehind Says:

    And in what sinister way is Bobby Jindal connected to all this?

  50. leftbehind Says:

    Knarly – this one’s all you, pardner – what should the police have done?

  51. NorthernLite Says:

    shcb, I stayed away from the parasailing too. I enjoy being really high, but not in that way…which is why I go to Mexico ;) Hell, I have to hammered just to get through the plane ride.

    knarly, I was going to stay away because I didn’t think Obama was going to lie and there would be no point to visit here anymore. But there’s a strange thing about this blog, where you almost know everyone who visits, so it draws me back. Kind of like that bar, ‘Cheers’. It’s almost intimate.

    For the record, I’m with the RCMP on this one. I’m not saying that tasers themselves shouldn’t be looked into further (like at least lowering the voltage or something). There have been way too many taser-related deaths for a weapon that’s supposed to not cause death, in my opinion. But I think the RCMP acted accordingly and I don’t think they meant to kill this man. It was indeed tragic though.

  52. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb,
    First of all, the man seems to be of below average intelligence to start with, not retarded just very simple and probably shouldn’t have been flying alone at 42 years of age for the first time. He liked to draw maps and nature pictures in his notebook. He had zero criminal or psychiatric history or problems. There were ZERO drugs and ZERO alcohol in his system.

    Second, there was a systemic failure of airport procedures ($10 million in changes have been made since, as a result of this incident, so the errors would not be repeated and so foreign language travellers or anyone else observed wandering around lost will now get assistance ), he was observed for TEN HOURS by security staff on securit cameras acting confused, lost, and no-one had, nor accepted, nor assumed, any responsibility to assist. (That’s after his 24 hours of travel from Poland.) He was avoided by all for hours, except one fellow traveller who very late in the episode tried to communicate with him and calm him down but she could not determine what language it was, she thought Russian(?) but by then the police were (rushing) on their way.

    Lefty asks the key question – what should they have done? The media fails to speculate, preferring instead to simply report the facts of the case. From what I’ve seen, there were lots of things the police could have done.

    But first you have to ask: what is the role of the police? It should be to (1) peacefully resolve such situations without harm to themselves or others, and where that is not possible to (2) use sufficient force to protect (a) the public, (b) protect themselves, (c) protect the person causing the disturbance from harming their self, (d) protect property and (e) protect the public peace – in that order. The police actions in this case, obvious from the video, were to clear the area as fast as possible i.e. (d) and (e) seemed to be the paramount concerns. Maybe they had a lot of other calls to attend to and I can sympathize if they thought this guy looked like a big, unnecessary inconvenience that was keeping them from more important calls.

    So what could they have done? The police have a lot of training in de-fusing situations and negotiating, so I’d imagine their tool box was full of alternatives to the taser, at least for the initial encounter. If it were me in that uniform, first I’d ask a question or two from people who had been watching him in order to get an assessment of the situation. The RCMP didn’t even realize he couldn’t speak English.
    Second, I’d approach in a calm manner rather than a threatening swat-style “rush”. The RCMP might have talked while travelling to the scene a little about some form of plan or at least who would be “on point” (they had no plan except, apparently, to rush the man.) Third, attempt to communicate rather than, or before, dramatically escalating the situation by moving towards him in a demanding manner. Offering a glass of water to the guy might have been interpreted as my being there to help him rather than to capture him.

    And, when the stapler was picked up, take a step backwards to de-escalate the situatino slightly. Firing the taser, when the man was not moving towards any officer, was unnecessary. Finally, given that the man was not moving towards any officer, if the tazer was going to be used, existing police procedures required a warning to be issued first – as the Polish lawyer pointed out, such a warning – even if the actual words were not understood – could have gotten through to the man about the seriousness of the situation. Not giving any warning but just shooting him as he stood there holding the stapler was itself an aggressive attack and probably so extraordinarily frightening after his “34 hour travel ordeal” that this and the three knees in his back and the total of 5 taser blasts over 30 seconds resulted in his death.

    Bobby Jindal as a Republican like shcb probably would also approve and support all of the police actions in this case.

  53. shcb Says:

    I think you hit the nail on the head, if security had indeed been watching him for several hours that is when something could have been done and should have been done. Before he got so agitated. But by the time the police arrived the damage had sadly been done.

    Personally if I see someone in distress I try and find help for them, I was in the grocery store the other evening and a lady in a wheel chair was having a hard time getting the clerk at the cheese counter’s attention due to the configuration of the counter so I simply stepped up to the counter and politely told the clerk the lady needed assistance. I’m surprised no one stepped up to find out why he was in distress. It may have been that he moved often so no one person saw him for very long or he became distressed suddenly after being there a long time. Hard to say. But I think the police did what the could, it just ended tragically, kind of like these football players that were killed fishing, you could say why didn’t the coast guard go to the overturned boat first, why did they spend all that time looking in places the boat wasn’t. Sometimes we do all we can and it simply isn’t enough.

    NL,

    We had just returned from doing the zip lines in the jungle 90 feet (30m) in the trees when we went parasailing so the adrenalin was still in high gear. I knew when I was 6 inches (30cm) off the sand I had made a mistake. I just didn’t like the little seat I was in I felt I was going to flip upside down. Then the wind came up when my daughter was up there and they almost couldn’t get her down she was just too light (not a problem with ole Rick). Once they got her on the sand one 300 pound Mexican basically sat on her while the other one tackled the sail, it was just a little too out of control.

  54. knarlyknight Says:

    On reflection, that got way off topic.

    My reason for bring up this Robert Dziekanski thing was to see who here agreed with each of the four officers that that man holding a “loaded” stapler, in a secure area of the airport, constituted enough of a threat to the four officers to employ the Tazer. Just trying to seperate the wimps from the real men, so to speak.

    Me, I’m nearly the last person on earth to get into a physical fight, but I’m confident I could have dealt with him even if he had TWO staplers.

    Besides,s it probably woudl have taken little more than a hamburger, a side of fries and a phone call to the Polish embassy to settle the matter without further destruction to ugly airport furnishings.

    But if you really like airport furnishings, maybe you feel that its protection warrants the incredible pain of 50,000 volts (applied five times). It did have sort of that 60’s era retro look going for it, so perhaps that explains NL’s position on the cops use of force here.

  55. leftbehind Says:

    Knarly – and what if the warning didn’t work, which it probably wouldn’t have, since he wouldn’t even have been able to understand it? What would you do then?

  56. leftbehind Says:

    I’ll bet you don’t have any idea, do you?

  57. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb- not a few hours, it was approximately TEN hours of security footage. They had been watching him since his arrival. Thing was, it was nobody’s job to go deal with him so they just watched him and his behaviour deteriorate until it became a security issue warranting the police being called.

    They won’t do that again.

  58. knarlyknight Says:

    Offer him a pen and paper.

  59. leftbehind Says:

    Or you could sing him a lullabye. Those seem to calm people down, and lullabies are essentially the same in every culture.

  60. leftbehind Says:

    You could even borrow someone’s laptop and look up a Polish lullabye, and sing it to him in his own language.

    Seriously, though…there’s a man behaving in an agitated, explosive manner in a public place and you’re going hand him a sharp object? How about you take a minute and come up with another stupid answer.

  61. knarlyknight Says:

    Lefty, I certainly would not have Tasered him in the back, as noted by this comment:

    joseph Cheng from Toronto, Canada writes: The Pole was tasered by the Mountie at the back when he was walking away. In the old west, it was considered a very dastardly deed shooting someone on the back. Only lowly cowards would do something like that! Our modern ‘brave’ Mounties! Unbelievable!
    Posted 25/02/09 at 12:42 AM EST | Link to Comment

    Let’s peruse some other comments mostly related to alternative actions:

    Dipstick Dong from The Broke city of 2010, Canada writes: To think the first thing to do is to get someone who could speak Polish, how hard is that to do?

    Dan Shortt from Toronto, Canada writes: It’s obvious that Dziekanski felt his own safety was at risk, and was preparing to defend himself, much as any animal would when confronted by 4 menacing predators.

    Jaded in Vancouver from Canada writes: Don’t these officers get training on conflict resolution at the academy ? If four officers think a scared man holding a stapler is dangerous to them, they should be summarily dismissed.

    Tor Hill Sask. from Canada writes: Jaded: that is the big question. It all comes down to the kind of profiling of candidates done by police services, including the RCMP. We need cops who are neither hard-headed or idealistic. It’s a job with risks, but it’s a public service and it should always be an honourable one. These RCMP officers in the Dziekanski did not perform honourable service. We all know the video clip leading up to the attack, ‘Can we use the taser on him?’ I wonder why that might have been kept out of the inquiry? It seems to fit in with the business about whether or not the officers had a plan ahead of time. Amnesia. Cultivated amnesia of the public. No worries. Just that it is pathetic.

    Sean Kelly from Ontario, Canada writes:

    Also, if the Tazers weren’t responsible for killing him … that obviously means the Mounties’ other restraining methods must’ve killed him.

    I don’t see how anyone can argue that neither killed him.

    Puk Natcha from Canada writes: A stapler is only a weapon to those who fight memo wars.
    I thought these clowns were trained. This guy peed his pants when the poor victim held up a stapler?

    Tor Hill Sask. from Canada writes: So, according to the inquiry so far, things proceeded from no plan at all to fear. That’s strange enough in itself. Couldn’t the officers be a little prepared for … the possibility of fear? But of course, things didn’t proceed from ‘no plan.’ There was a plan; it was ‘Can we taser him?’ Now, fear could crop up as an unexpected element, but I would think that the ‘can we use the taser’ plan would trump that one. What an inquiry.

    stan unknown from Canada writes: As the Killed man had said ‘what’s wrong with you people’
    4 grown up men,’don’t even talk to each other’ ?
    What TV series did this training come from?

    Not Withstanding from Canada writes: STOP! I’ve got a stapler! Don’t force me to use this!!!!
    Good grief.

    Daniel Johnson from Calgary, Canada writes: Humanist psychologist Abraham Maslow wrote in the 1960s: ‘Give a boy a hammer and the whole world becomes a nail.’ I think we can update that to:
    ‘Give a cop a taser and every person becomes a potentially threatening perp.’

    JMFT S from Coquitlam, Canada writes: When my son was in his teens (his birthdate is October 14th) and very early twenties he spent more than a few years in trouble with the law and more than a few hours in RCMP lockup. He didn’t do drugs or alcohol but he couldn’t get enough of plain old fashioned authority challenging adrenalin.

    I will always be grateful to the RCMP for their treatment of him – they didn’t mollycoddle him but they didn’t harass or abuse him when he was in their custody either. Eventually, he grew out if this phase and is now on the straight and narrow. As I’ve said, I will always be grateful for their professional and intelligent handling of him – they didn’t make the situation worse in other words.

    What happened to Robert Dziekanski appears to be an accident that was waiting to happen. The RCMP officers did not go to that scene with the intent to kill but the combined problems of airport mismanagement at every turn and poor police training and situational judgment intersected in the absolutely unjustifiable ending of a man’s life. For this reason people and parties have to be held accountable. It sounds like manslaughter to me, that is, ‘Killing in the prosecution of a lawful act, improperly performed, or performed without lawful authority.’

    The only vindication for these officers will come through the meeting out of a just and fair punishment.
    Posted 25/02/09 at 1:21 AM EST | Link to Comment
    Billy Bob from Saskatchewan from Canada writes: Concerned about escalating stapler related violence?

    Join the Canadians for the Registration of Staplers and other Dangerous Devices.

    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=57742260809#/group.php?gid=57742260809

    And finally:

    Gordon Stephens from Victoria, Canada writes: ‘The officer tried to explain the threat posed to four armed Mounties by the stapler Mr. Dziekanski was wielding’

    That would be pretty hilarious… you know, if they hadn’t killed the guy holding the stapler.

  62. leftbehind Says:

    Maybe you could have given some clay and encouraged him to express his frustration through art.

  63. leftbehind Says:

    I mean, if you’re not going to physically try to stop the guy, or even move to restrain him, you should something right?

  64. leftbehind Says:

    Maybe the two of you could “dance it out?”

  65. knarlyknight Says:

    A pen!!! A stapler AND a pen!!! OOOOOhhh, scary.

    I have the tazer, a can of pepper spray, a hand gun and a kevlar vest, plus THREE other officers similarly protected next to me.

    I can risk offering him a pen and paper to go with his stapler. I’m ready with the tazer and yes I’ll use it if he makes a menacing action towards me. I will not shoot him first in the back as he walks away.

    So we see Lefty is a wimp, anyone else here think the stapler (or pen) is scary?

  66. knarlyknight Says:

    The public was not a risk, the man was in a secured area behind safety glass.

  67. leftbehind Says:

    Back in the 80’s, they used to encourage gang kids in New York to use break dancing as a from of conflict resolution. Instead of fighting, the kids could have a break dance “battle.” Maybe, if Officer Knarly were to bust out with his old school B-Boy stance, the Polish guy would be inspired to break out with his Shabba-Doo moves and the two of you could kick it Krush Groove style until you were both too tired to fight and fell together in a laughing, sweaty heap on the floor.

  68. leftbehind Says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch_MO08s_-U

  69. leftbehind Says:

    And where did you get the idea that Dziekanski was “obviously of low intelleigence?” Is it because he’s Polish? I don’t think I’ve ever noted his intelligence being at issue in this case.

  70. knarlyknight Says:

    A few months back I heard his mom or someone who interviewed his mom talk on the radio about what Dziekanski was like.

    That’s where I got the distinct impression he was not at all very bright, but you would probably think otherwise.

  71. knarlyknight Says:

    His intelligence is not at issue, but it might help to explain his erratic behaviour since no pathology, drugs or alcohol was involved.

  72. knarlyknight Says:

    So far Lefty seems to be the only one here that is scared of staplers.

    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=57742260809#/group.php?gid=57742260809

  73. knarlyknight Says:

    Nice video of the dancing cop. Sort of what I mean. Dziekanski might have laughed had that cop been there and have no need to pick up a stapler.

    Rush a guy expecting the worst and you’re going to get the response of a trapped animal – or, in this case, of a frustrated mail room clerk.

  74. shcb Says:

    NL,

    I thought I might have to go to China a couple weeks ago so I looked up flights and they were only $1000, so I’m thinking Holland is probably $700 or so, what say we do that Amsterdam fact finding mission and let these two go at it for a week or two?

  75. leftbehind Says:

    If his intelligence wasn’t an issue, then it wouldn’t help explain his bahavior, would it?

  76. leftbehind Says:

    …but now that you’ve brought it up, alcohol had nothing to do with his behavior, but it was a factor in his death, wasn’t it…or have you read that far yet?

  77. leftbehind Says:

    What was the official cause of death in this case, or do you not know?

  78. knarlyknight Says:

    Intelligence wasn’t an issue in terms of the police action. Yet it might be an issue with respect to Dziekanski’s erratic behavior, and certainly is a hindrance in terms of your comprehending the matter.

    And No, you are imagining things if you think alcohol was a factor in his death.

    “Dziekanski died moments after being repeatedly shocked. An autopsy report gave the cause of death as cardiac arrest, and found no sign of drugs or alcohol in his system.”

    From the video I’d say he died from a combination of the intense pain from the Tazer voltage and from being scared to death.

  79. leftbehind Says:

    Wrong.

  80. leftbehind Says:

    The CBC reports that three forensic pathologists investigating the case found that Dziekanski died of “cardiac arrest linked to a condition called…Sudden Death Following Restraint. That conditon was brought on by Heart Disease brought on by chronic alcohol abuse (abuse verified by friends in Poland and his mother) and Alcohol withdrawl.

    While “the stress of physical restraint worsened by the deployment of the taser” and “a decreased ability to breathe as a result of being restrained” were certainly factors, two medical experts concluded Dzeikanski’s irrational and aggressive behavior before his death was result of “a hysterical fear of flying, lack of sleep over a 30-hour period and dehydration, which would have placed him at increased risk for sudden death.”

    “Sudden Death Following Restraint usually involves individuals who are restrained after exhibiting combative and bizarre behavior. As a result…such cases usually involve law enforcement…”

  81. leftbehind Says:

    The taser did not kill Dziekanski – existing health conditions did. That these conditions were brought to stress level by his own destructive behavior is hardly the fault of the RCMP, which is why none of the officers were prosecuted in this incident.

  82. leftbehind Says:

    I’ll bet you don’t even know how many times Dziekanski was actually stunned with the taser?

  83. leftbehind Says:

    Hint: It wasn’t five. He also wasn’t hit with anywhere near the 250,000 volts you’ve said he was. Do you even know how a taser works?

  84. knarlyknight Says:

    My the CBC has gone further down-hill than I’d suspected in recent years.

    Contrast your supposed CBC report (you provide no link, no date) with what is currently in wiki:

    Critics, however, point out that “excited delirium” is not recognized in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders and claim that police overuse such so-called conditions as a matter of convenience.[26][27] While some psychologists argue that excited delirium is indeed a bona fide but rare condition that can cause sudden death,[27] experts say that delirium (without the “excited” modifier) is a well-known condition, but that it is usually triggered by factors such as drugs or a pronounced mental or physical illness and that it is extremely rare for those afflicted to suddenly die.[27] Toxicology tests found no drugs or alcohol in Dziekański’s system.[28] An autopsy by the British Columbia Coroner’s Service did not determine the cause of death, citing no trauma or disease, nor pre-existing medical conditions.[29]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dziekanski

    We may never know exactly why he died but so what?

    Determining the exact cause of death will not explain why Dziekanski was suddenly shot with the Tazer, or the key question:

    Should police fear staplers?

  85. knarlyknight Says:

    50,000 volts is what I repeatedly stated. If you find a 2 in front of that anywhere it is a typo.

    Tazer was FIRED 5 times, he was hit AT LEAST three times.

  86. knarlyknight Says:

    Typical modus operandi of wwnj:

    Ignore issue at hand: e.g. “Should police fear staplers?” Raise questions about side issues. Attack any inconsistency. Put opponents on defense.

    Them are the tactics of wimps.

  87. leftbehind Says:

    You said he was hit five times at 50,00 volts a hit – what’s five times 50,000?

  88. knarlyknight Says:

    So the question remains, is a lone middle aged muggle with a loaded stapler a threat to 4 armed and athletic police officers with body armor? I think not, but Lefty seems to think so

  89. leftbehind Says:

    …but you’re finally telling it straight – he was hit three times, at approx. 1,500 volts a hit.

    My link is http:www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/12/12/bc-airport-taser-death-charges.html

    The CBC is no Prisonplanet or anything, but I thought it was a pretty good write-up, as well as a pretty obvious one for you not to even be aware of.

  90. knarlyknight Says:

    OMG you are stupid beyond words. There was one Taser gun. Five shots (or two shots depending on whether you beleive the police initial statement) of 50,000 volts over a period of 30 seconds equals Dziekanski being hit with a total of, wait for it,

    … 50,000 volts.

  91. knarlyknight Says:

    1,500 volts? or 50,000 volts? whatever…

    so shoot me (you have cause, there is a stapler on my desk)

  92. leftbehind Says:

    Also from the CBC:

    “News reports will often quote the voltage delivered by a Taser — up to 50,000 volts. That sounds like a lot of electricity, but it’s a misleading way of expressing the power a Taser uses.

    “Tasers work by passing electricity through a pair of wires. Weighted barbed hooks at the ends of the wires are propelled toward the target by compressed air.

    “Tasers are designed to incapacitate a person through up to five centimetres of clothing. Taser International says the electrical pulse is delivered at a high voltage because the electric current has to pass through clothing and air — neither of which is a good conductor of electricity — to make a complete circuit with the target’s skin.
    Taser International also says that while its device can deliver up to 50,000 volts, it does not deliver that much voltage to a person’s body. The company says its Advanced Taser M26 delivers an average of 1,500 volts.

    “As well, the high-voltage pulse of a Taser carries only a small current, typically 0.002 to 0.03 amps.

    “By comparison, electrical outlets in Canada deliver 120 volts of electricity, and the current they carry depends on the appliance that’s plugged into them. A 60-watt light bulb, for example, pulls 0.5 amps, while a toaster pulls about 5 amps.

    “A study conducted by the Canadian Police Research Centre in 2005 found no definitive evidence of a causal relationship between the use of CEDs and death. However, the researchers found that the state of excited delirium is a main contributor to deaths occurring soon after CED use. Moreover, the study suggests that multiple CED applications and the resulting impact on respiration levels, pH levels and other physical effects may be the link between stun guns, excited delirium and death.
    The researchers also concluded that the risk of cardiac complications occurring in people hit with CEDs is low. But a study conducted by the UK Defence Science and Technology Laboratory suggests that the risk is greater for individuals who have alcohol or drugs coursing through their bodies or who have an existing heart condition.”

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/tasers/

  93. leftbehind Says:

    The difference between 50,000 and 1,500 was 48,500 last time I checked. It’s not the stapler that’s scary – it’s your lack of basic math ability that’s scary.

  94. leftbehind Says:

    I think Dziekanski made the same mistake with those cops that you make when you take me on – he brought a stapler to a taser fight.

  95. leftbehind Says:

    You should do yourself a favor and take a day or two to actually research this incident before you bring it up again. I’m going to wait until you actually say anything worth responding to before I weigh in on it again myself.

    See ya next week!

  96. NorthernLite Says:

    Actually, shcb, my next vacation is going to have to be to Malaysia. Have you ever seen these mofo’s dance? Lefty, you should check this out too.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_viF_u6uQ_o

    “The Malaysian Shuffle”

  97. leftbehind Says:

    Wow! I don’t think wow even covers it, but Wow!

    How was Puerto Vallerta?

  98. knarlyknight Says:

    Lefty, My math skills are fine, thank you.

    It was you who decided to take me on, not the other way around. Get your facts straight.

    Your conclusion is that the police went there to fight? That may be accepted where you live, but we have different standards for police here.

    Besides. it wasn’t a fight until the taser was fired. Then it simply became a killing.

    As for researching this incident, that is the purpose of the Braidwood enquiry – to examine the facts. Hence te officer’s recent testimony, hence the revelation that they used the taser due to fear of a stapler, hence my question. There is a two week recess until the next witness, the officer in charge, so we’ll have to wait until then if he too was scared of the stapler.

    Your fine excerpt from the CBC piece on Tasers doesn’t do anything to answer the question in my original post on this issue of Mar 3, 2:56 pm:

    My question is whether or not it is possible to respect a police officer who:
    admits that a disoriented, unkempt, overweight man standing 15 feet away scared him, because the big scary man was armed with a common office paper stapler (yes, you can assume it was loaded), and that scared him enough to blast him 5 times with a tazer, despite there being three other police officers present?

    The point about tasers is that they incapacitate the victim temporarily and cause immense pain, and as such are both extremely useful tools for law enforcement and highly tempting intruments for abusive control of whoever a cop considers to be undesirable or uncooperative. You can see a lot of the latter on Youtube, as well as the former.

  99. leftbehind Says:

    Knarly, your math skills are about about as “fine” as your reading comprehension.
    You obviously still don’t understand a) what actually happened at the airport or b) anything I’ve posted here. If you’re not going to take your time and actually study this matter or make an effort to keep up with the flow of our conversation, there’s really no point in discussing this any further. All that’s going to happen is you’re going to get all frustrated and weird like you do and there’s no point in that.

    Let’s change the subject to something less confrontational. What movies have you seen recently? I don’t know about up there, but down here Watchmen is opening Friday, and I thought it looked pretty cool. I remember reading the graphic novel back in the 1980’s and being very impressed with it.

  100. J.A.Y.S.O.N. Says:

    This is how it breaks down to me. Something is wrong with the guy. He seems totally unprepared to make the trip. If he was slow or special or something of that nature, then someone should have prepared him better for the trip. Teach him to say ‘Does anyone speak Polish?’

    The cops don’t seem to be Canada’s finest either. Anyone can be a cop, its not like they’re the most elite men and women on the planet. They run the range from intelligent professionals to the dude next to you in high school that did nothing but tell the same joke over and over and get D’s on everything. We’ve had some really egregious tasings and use of force by stupid cops in the States, which if on camera makes it to the news.

    It seems like their thought process was ‘Crazy dude, we have tasers, lets deal with him that way.’ Maybe not the best thought process, but I think the police are looking at it as a quick, non-lethal response to the problem. This is a good solution for them, in their minds I think they didn’t have to try and calm him, or figure out what language he was speaking. This is where the cops are stupid or complacent.

    Maybe some of the problem is tasers. I don’t know how cops are trained with them. Most civilians seem to think of them as non-lethal rather than less lethal, which to me is a huge difference. At the same time I can see why they’re a great weapon for cops. Statistically they aren’t say ‘more lethal’ like guns. Before tasers and chemical sprays cops had to beat people with truncheons, which was a lot more injurious to the perp and potentially more so with the cops, so I understand why the taser looks good.

    For two of the criticisms of the police though:

    In all seriousness though. I wouldn’t really be afraid of being stapled, but I would be afraid of being bashed in the head with a stapler.

    My grandma speaks Polish, so I might know it. I worked for Russians, so I might know that. I’d probably know German, but I’m not sure I could work out what eastern European language someone was speaking.

    This situation strikes me as one of those ‘The more stupidity that enters the situation, the more the chances for a positive outcome diminish.’ You have an idiot causing an incident and stupid cops and the result is a sad situation.

  101. J.A.Y.S.O.N. Says:

    The last two movies I saw were Gran Torino and the Wrestler. Both of those were really really good. Although I’m ready to go see something a bit less serious the next time I head to the theater.

  102. NorthernLite Says:

    Puerto Vallarta was amazing, the weather was 85 – 90 degrees every single day. It was a nice change from the 0 – 10 degree, snowy bs I’ve been putting up with for the past 6 months! Very relaxing during the day, but also very happening at night. I went to a few night clubs when I was down there and they were really, really good. And that’s coming from a resident of Toronto, which has some wicked night life, so that’s saying a lot. The locals were very friendly to us as well.

    I had a lot of fun down there and would recommend it as a vacation destination to anyone who likes relaxing days and dancing all night. I don’t even think they have ‘last call’ down there – one night I asked my friend what time it was and he looked at his watch and said, “quarter to five (in the morning)” and the dance floor was still packed!

  103. shcb Says:

    The biggest gripe most people have with Vallarta is the beaches, but I found they had sand and water, close enough for me. My uncle flew for a travel club for many years and as such spent a lot of time in all the Mexican resorts, Vallarta was always his favorite.

  104. leftbehind Says:

    NL- Those of us who have remained, until very recently, suffering through very cold winter weather while still trying to recover from January’s ice storm, envy you your lovely warm, vacation spot! I’ve never known anyone to go to Puerto Vallarta and be disappointed, and can’t wait to get there myself someday.

    J – All the buzz for both Gran Torino and the Wrestler indicate that they are both exceptional films, and I’m looking the most forward to seeing The Wrestler. I’ve always thought Micky Rourk was a very good actor, it was just that his personal demons got too much in the way of his career. I’ve seen several clips of his performance, and he’s very good in “Wrestler” – playing a character that seems not too distant from Rourk himself.

    Has anyone seen Sean Penn in Milk?

  105. knarlyknight Says:

    Jayson,
    Thanks for your thoughtful post on the airport tasering death, I couldn’t agree with you more on all major points. Our one minor difference of opinion is that I highly, highly doubt that the erratic Polish guy would have been able to connect the stapler to one of the cops if he had started to attack, as he would have been either tasered, pepper sprayed wrestled to the ground or whacked with a batton had he started to lunge forward – which he did not do.

    So with respect to my question, I’ll put you down with Lefty and shcb that a muddled, muggle immigrant who just picked up a common office paper stapler – at or below waist level while standing reasonably still – would be so frightening to you even in the presence of three other police officers as to warrant your firing of a taser without any verbal warning.

    I know that’s not what you meant in your reply, but that’s what I see as your answer to my question.

  106. knarlyknight Says:

    I’m expecting to enjoy Gran Torino immensely and hope to be pleasantly surprised by the Wrestler and Weathermen.

    My last Mexico trip was an all-inclusive 5 star off of Cozumel. The night life wasn’t that great unless you count getting cozy with sea turtles.

  107. J.A.Y.S.O.N. Says:

    knarly, I guess I have no idea how you see that, even remotely. Especially because you said you know it’s not what I meant.

    Should I now just lump you in where I feel, regardless of what I feel the intent of any argument you make is? I don’t quite get it.

    If I’m not with you I’m against you? Damn the man, off the pigs! was that the correct response?

    My implication that I thought I understood the cops thought process and reasoning is an automatic acceptance of the correctness of the response?

  108. knarlyknight Says:

    Okay, thanks for clarifying your position. I understand all the caveats, emotions, and agendas at play here. And I do have sympathy for the cops that responded to this call too, and a pretty clear picture of why the taser was used is coming out of the commission of inquiry – and it is most probably not because any of the cops were evil.

    So to confrim, with all your mitigating factors noted, you would say that “a muddled, muggle immigrant who just picked up a common office paper stapler – at or below waist level while standing reasonably still – would ” not “be so frightening to you … in the presence of three other police officers as to warrant your firing of a taser without any verbal warning”?

  109. leftbehind Says:

    Sympathy for the police??? What are you…a fascist? They tasered some guy to death for picking up a stapler and you’re going to defend them all of the sudden???

  110. leftbehind Says:

    …even if he was a muggle, Jesus Christ! That’s another thing that’s very hard to respect about you – you argue one side of the argument ineffectively, then you try to save face by jumping to the other side.

  111. J.A.Y.S.O.N. Says:

    Actually, if you read what I said, I don’t think they were frightened. I might be, but I’m also not police officer. If those guys were legitimately frightened, it might be good to place them somewhere less challenging, like dispatch. I think they saw the taser as an expedient, which shows a lack of judgment.

  112. leftbehind Says:

    They couldn’t have been terribly frightened – if they had been, they would have run away instead of tasering his ass three times.

  113. NorthernLite Says:

    knarly, my resort was all inclusive but it was only a 3.5 star. But it’s perfect for what we go down there for. I find you can be a little more loud and party a little harder at a less-classy of a place :) Plus I don’t feel guilty when I spill drinks and ash my cuban’s on the floor.

  114. knarlyknight Says:

    Jayson,
    Okay already, you really should be working at a diplomatic mission somewhere. I’ll create a new category just for you:
    You do not know if you would have been scared or not, the cop might have been scared but he shouldn’t have been and whether he was scared or not firing the first taser blast at that particular moment showed a lack of judgement.

    You’re in good company, public sentiment seems to echo that (those?) view(s):

    This week, Const. Kwesi Millington, the officer who fired the Taser, testified before the inquiry, stating that he feared for the officers’ safety after Dziekanski picked up a stapler.

    His comments prompted snickers from spectators who watched the tape, and who obviously questioned how four officers, clad in Kevlar vests, carrying guns and pepper spray and trained in self-defence, could fear a lone man with a stapler.

    Clearly, if the officers’ actions were in keeping with RCMP policy at the time, then the policy permitted the Tasering of suspects upon even the slightest provocation.

    Now it’s awfully hard to understand how the officers could still have been frightened of Dziekanski, but that’s still not the worst of it. No, the worst thing is that if the videotape didn’t exist, one would have to rely on Millington’s notes about the incident, notes that Millington was forced to repeatedly admit were wrong.

    In fact, confronted by videotape evidence about the number of times Dziekanski was Tasered, Millington had to confess that one would get a “distorted view” of the incident by reading his notes.

    This is a devastating admission because, in most cases of Tasering, the officer’s testimony is all we have to rely on.

    “RCMP’s reputation takes a beating at Braidwood inquiry”
    http://www.vancouversun.com/RCMP+reputation+takes+beating+Braidwood+inquiry/1355351/story.html

  115. knarlyknight Says:

    Lefty, I’ve already put you down as being scared of the muggle with a stapler, are you flip flopping on that now?

    To clarify, basically my views much on this have always been (1) that the main problem was the situation – i.e. airport policies that were since remedied and thus not really needing to be talked about – and (2) that the muggle immigrant was way out of line (but not an imminent threat to anyone) and that (3) the police officers acted like goons on a mission to clear the area rather than the civil servants that they actually are. As big a coward as I can be at times, if I had been the officer holding the tazer I surely would have started to laugh when he picked up the stapler, fear would not have kicked in unless he lunged at us, which he did not do. So in my opinion the officer who fired the shot is either lying or is too full of fear to ever be anything but a very lousy cop. I still believe that.

    Assumptions Lefty made about my taking a “side of the argument” have been revealed to him as wrong, and that is what he percieves in error as a jumping to the other side.

    But thanks to Lefty’s distractions I now think that the tazer probably connected properly 3 or 4 times out of the 5 shots fired, and that tasers vary greatly in output from 1,500 volts to 50,000 volts depending on the gun and the electrical resistance of where the tazer shot hits. Nice for a pop quiz but it doesn’t answer the question of whether the cop that fired the tazer was a real coward or is just pretending to be a coward.

  116. enkidu Says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvGwr5wj8A8

  117. knarlyknight Says:

    Get the taser. NOW!

  118. knarlyknight Says:

    See! Tasers are not always necessary:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090305.wbcpepperspray0305/BNStory/National/home

    I think I’ve had that US Customs inspector myself. Talk about your culture clash.

  119. leftbehind Says:

    For those of you don’t don’t spend as much time reading children’s literature as Knarly does, a muggle is the term used in the Harry Potter books to denote some one who has no magical powers.

    Why the big emphasis on this guy being a muggle? Obviously, he was a muggle, or he would have turned those cops into newts or something. I must admit though, a level 30 magic-user with a stapler would would be a lot scarier than some Polish guy, Knarly – and I just know that a guy like you plays enough Dungeons and Dragons to know what I’m talking about.

  120. leftbehind Says:

    Or what about a werewolf with a stapler? Now that would be some scary-ass shit.

  121. leftbehind Says:

    Or a werewolf on a motorcycle with a stapler in one hand and Stormbringer in the other…now that you put it in perspective for us Knarly, I guess there are a lot of things scarier than some guy with a stapler.

  122. leftbehind Says:

    …unless the guy with the stapler was bionic. Muggles can be bionic, can’t they Knarly?

  123. leftbehind Says:

    …I mean, he might still be bionic, even if he was obviously “of lower intelligence.”

  124. leftbehind Says:

    …and of course I realize that all of this is really, really stupid – but certainly no more stupid than Knarly’s contention that it would be a good idea to shoot pepper spray into the face of a man with a heart condition.

  125. leftbehind Says:

    Knarly, do you have any idea what pepper spray is or how it works? Can you even tell the class why it would be a bad idea to use it on a man who was already on the verge of a cardiac arrest?

    And who cares what you “think” about how many times the taser connected? The official investigation says three times. That is a matter of public record.

  126. leftbehind Says:

    Of course, I’m talking to the same moron who thinks it would be alright to hand an irrational, potentially violent person an ink pen:

    “A ballpoint pen isn’t suspicious, but used the right way you’re just as dead as if I’d shot you…”

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4159/is_20060129/ai_n16037799

    “A man who murdered a fellow-student in a “sustained, ferocious and cruel” attack using ballpoint pens has been jailed for a minimum of 21 years…”

    http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/21-years-for-man-who.3718661.jp

    “Unless you have a pocket knife, your weapon of choice is a pen. Hold either with the point extending between your thumb and forefinger. Keep enough of it in your hand so that your grip is secure. Make quick jabbing attacks, like a striking snake. Withdraw immediately; never leave your arm extended. Aim for his eyes. If you can hit his eye, he will be out of the fight, and even if you miss it will affect his ability to fight back, because it is instinctive to defend when your eyes are threatened…”

    http://www.denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2002/01/fog0000000202.shtml

    “After the attack on Butler, police learned of another incident that had occurred earlier the same day. During a class that afternoon, Sem allegedly stabbed fellow student John Killian in the face with a ball-point pen. According to police reports filed at the time, the wound required seven stitches to close.”

    http://maharishi-mahesh-yogi.re-membered.com/2005/06/maharishi-univeristy-student-murder.html

  127. leftbehind Says:

    Hold on folks, my last comment is awaiting “moderation.”

  128. leftbehind Says:

    Inky’s a moderator now. This could be awhile.

  129. knarlyknight Says:

    My peppers pray caption to the link was a joke. You are the bigger joke for taking it seriously. Who had the heart condition, the guy who got pepper sprayed or Dziekanski the taser victim? I thought Dziekanski’s autopsy showed he had no serious pre-existing conditions?

    Never played Dungeons and Dragons.

    What official investigation says the tazer connected 3 times? The police or the autopsy? I’m not disputing that it’s just irrelevant because my position has always been that one tazer blast on this polish immigrant was way out of line because he posed no imminent threat.

    I’m awaiting the fourth officer’s testimony in two weeks, see if he maintains the defence plea of being a scaredy cat too.

  130. knarlyknight Says:

    This just in, Michael Moore responds directly to Lefty’s Attacks on Lies

    In the end it all proved to be a big strategic mistake on their part. Thanks to the Republican attacks on me, average Joes and Janes started to listen to what I had to say. Contrary to Richard Wolffe’s assessment that “there were no Democrats as far as I can remember who were saying they stood with Michael Moore,” Democrats, in fact, have stood side by side with me during all of this. Here’s the Congressional Black Caucus supporting me on Capitol Hill in 2004. Here’s Terry McAuliffe, the head of the Democratic National Committee, enthusiastically attending the premiere of “Fahrenheit 9/11″ with two dozen senators and members of Congress. Here’s a group of Democratic congresspeople endorsing my film Sicko in the chambers of the House Judiciary Committee in 2007. And here’s President Jimmy Carter inviting me to sit with him in his box at the Democratic National Convention. Far from making me into a pariah, the Republicans helped the Democratic leadership realize that to identify themselves publicly with me meant reaching the millions who followed and supported my work.

    Though John Kerry lost in 2004, my focus that year had been to get young voters registered and out to vote (I visited over 60 campuses). And so, just a few short months after the release of Fahrenheit 9/11, America’s young voters became the only age group that John Kerry won. They set a new record for the largest 18 to 24-year-old turnout since 1972, when 18-year-olds were given the right to vote, thus sending a signal about what would happen four years later with the youth revolution that ignited Obama’s campaign.

    After Fahrenheit, I kept speaking out, the Republican machine kept attacking me, and two years later, in 2006, the American public sided with me — not Rush Limbaugh — and voted in the Democrats to take over both houses of Congress.

    And then, finally, two years after that, we won the White House.

    That’s the difference — The American people agree with me, not Rush.

    More at: http://www.michaelmoore.com/mustread/index.php?id=1116

  131. knarlyknight Says:

    okay, give him a crayon then. Crikes Lefty is good at miscomprehending. The muggle couldn’t communicate in English and was frustrated to where he was acting out on the airport furnishings like a five year old, so providing him with a means to communicate would both de-stress / de-escalate the situation and potentially lead to the presence of an interpreter. If he simply wrote the most obvious things, e.g. “Polski” or “Matka?” the policia would have known how to deal with him.

    As it stood, Dziekanski had no way of knowing who he was dealing with. When they first entered the area he started yelling “Policia!” as if finally he might be getting some help, but then they rushed him like some kind of elite military unit without even speaking to each other so he probably thought he was dealing with an assassination squad or ruthless KGB type of unit.

  132. enkidu Says:

    ‘debate’ with crazed wingnuts isn’t worth the time of day, craig maybe, shcb on a good day, lefty… why bother?
    although I do think it interesting that the local fart-in-the-elevator is posting a near-stream-of-consciousness series of blather starting at 5:17 and ending at 8:18… well, at least that is three hours it isn’t out molesting small animals

    I don’t moderate the comments, I think jbc does when they are filled with some number of http links. Perhaps spamming the channel isn’t the best idea?

    aren’t you supposed to be on a hunger strike lefty?
    you claimed you weren’t going to feed the troll

  133. leftbehind Says:

    Inky – I’m glad to see you and I share the same opinion of Knarly, but I’ll let it end there – no need to feed two trolls at once. Still, you should follow this debate closely – since you spend so much time in airports and are prone to temper tantrums, you might be in danger if you could be in serious danger. Sorry for the confusion as to your moderator status – what a relief that John doesn’t trust you with anything important. He trusts Matt, but not you…

    Knarly – If you still think the postmortem on Deizanski revealed no health problems, it’s because you haven’t actually read it. I’ve provided the links, you need to provide the brain power and reading skills to use them properly. Your ability to just swing right past established facts of any incident you discuss is an object of awe. Read the links concerning the man’s death again, carefully before asking your next stupid question.

    I’m utterly flabbergasted by that weird fantasy sequence you posted regarding Dziekanski. It was almost as good as that time JBC spoke with God. How would you have any idea what the man was thinking when he died? You don’t even know how he died. Since he was a muggle, maybe he thought the cops were pledges from Slitherin come to turn him into a frog. Maybe he thought it was the editorial staff of popular mechanics come to demolish the airport then cover it up.

    Thanks also for the Michael Moore quote – it’s always good to hear guys like him make excuses for becoming irrelevent. If he was so important to the Democratic Party, how come they did better and better the less involved he became? You better watch that guy though, Knarly – he could make a come-back and steal your spot as political correspondent for “Barney and Friends.”

    When you get older, you should play D and D – it’s recommended for ages 12 and up, but littler kids can get involved with a little help from an older brother, or Mom and Dad.

  134. knarlyknight Says:

    Lefty is confused, he is the one who is irrelevant, not Moore.

    Of course no-one has any idea what Dziekanski was thinking before he got tasered. Lefty is amazing at his ability to detect speculation. FYI – last sentence was sarcasm.

    I’m not interested in reading the autopsy report, unless it were to help explain his behaviour before he was tasered. I’ll let Lefty and the taser manufacturer argue with themselves about why exactly Dziekanski went into cardiac arrest.

    Not interested in D&D.

  135. enkidu Says:

    happy to oblige

    btw – I suppose I could delete your comments from my threads like yMom did when he ran across opinions he didn’t like, but I don’t think that works for an open forum. Frankly I haven’t even looked into it, but I assume I could since I have (probably limited?) admin access.

    Please feel free to make as many zillions of zany posts that you need to for therapy or other purposes.

  136. knarlyknight Says:

    yea, as Enk will be sure to pass them along to your parole officer.

  137. leftbehind Says:

    Inky – Ymatt didn’t delete anything to my knowledge – he just killed the thread when he got sick of listening to you, me and Knarly argue about nothing. Haven’t you noticed yet that there is a hierarchy around here? JBC is the moderator, Jason, Matt asnd Craig and NL are the serious posters, SHCB is the token conservative and you, Knarly and I are the freakshow at the bottom of the pecking order. Haven’t you noticed that no one here even responds to you but Knarly, SHCB and I? You get to post threads because you’re a friend of JBC’s, but even he practically never talks to you online. Hell, even I get a better response from Jason, Matt and NL than you do, and I’m a total jerk. You’re a guy who takes time – a lot of time – away from his family to hang out with a clueless conservative, a dyslexic conspiracy theorist and a troll.

    Knarly – of course you’re not interested in the autopsy report because, as you and everyone here has already seen, proves that you are wrong. So far, you’ve been wrong about the cause of death, you’ve been wrong about the number of times he was tased, and the voltage of the taser. You said he was retarded and he wasn’t . You were wrong about his physical condition, and the implications of alcohol in his death. Your analysis of this incident is nearly as embarrassing as your analysis of the 9-11 attacks.

  138. leftbehind Says:

    Alex Jones to rescue, however. It’s amazing how close the Prisonplanet coverage of the Vancouver incident as been to Knarly’s own expert analysis:

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/polish-lawyer-accuses-officer-cover-up-at-taser-inquiry.html

  139. leftbehind Says:

    You know what would really be fun? A blog that posted thread about politics, with threads that began with a topic, stayed on that topic, and ended when that topic petered out without degenerating into pointlessness after 20 or so posts. I know YMatt would. I know Jason would. I’ll bet Steve would, as would Craig and probably NL as well.

  140. knarlyknight Says:

    The joke is on you Leftbehind, your prisonplanet link is simply Alex Jones’ reposting of yesterday’s article in Canada’s national newspaper, the Globe and Mail.

    So what you are saying is that today’s mainstream press agrees with what I’ve been saying all week. No surprise there, I’m going by what has come out of the Braidwood Commission whereas Lefty has been skittering into autopsy reports and delving into Taser International based research to argue with himself over what killed the poor Pole. Then he has the nerve to lament the thread getting off-track.

    The rest of Lefty’s comments are sour grapes and the baseless juvenile screed of a troll. e.g. I never stated anyone was retarded and I set out my thoughts on March 4, stating clearly that the man as not retarded :

    First of all, the man seems to be of below average intelligence to start with, not retarded just very simple and probably shouldn’t have been flying alone at 42 years of age for the first time. He liked to draw maps and nature pictures in his notebook. He had zero criminal or psychiatric history or problems. There were ZERO drugs and ZERO alcohol in his system.
    Second, there was a systemic failure of airport procedures ($10 million in changes have been made since, as a result of this incident, so the errors would not be repeated …

  141. knarlyknight Says:

    for the record, Dziekanski was 40 not 42 and the $10 million in airport changes is my recollection of a figure I heard in 2007 or 2008 so it might be off, which of course is grounds for another boring troll flame.

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