The Curious Experience of Caucusing in Texas

Two district conventions were held together in the fire station a mile or so from my house this evening at 7pm. This isn’t the kind of event I would have predicted I would be spending an evening on a couple years ago even, but having spent so much time bemoaning a combination of disappointing candidates and meaningless votes in Texas, I felt I owed it to my self-respect to make the most of this day when neither were true for me. And apparently I’m not done yet.

Driving up at 6:55, I was stunned to see people lined up outside in the chilly night, and I was lucky to get one of the last places to park around the firehouse. While I waited outside, cars would begin streaming into the church parking lot down the street, and people would build until a crowd of a couple hundred or so were milling about, chuckling about how much worse it would have been if it were during yesterday evening’s ice storm, asking each other about Texas caucusing arcana, and having a look at what exactly Texas Democrats look like.

The doors opened at 7:15 and it was over an hour for everyone to get inside the door, and have them put their names down for one candidate or another. The question was constantly asked if we had to stay or if we could go once we had signed in. The answer was the latter and by far most people left, although I stayed just to satiate my curiosity. The caucus was called to order, a temporary chairperson and secretary were selected, who then presided over the nomination and voting in of a permanent chairperson and secretary.

The names were counted, and the proportion used to split the district’s delegates to the county convention (where delegates will be selected in similar fashion for the state convention… where the delegates to the national convention will be selected, also in kind). My district was assigned 18 total delegates, 1 delegate per 15 people who voted democratic in the last gubernatorial election — curiously that’s only about 270 which seems a small number compared with the number caucusing tonight. Here, Obama won 11 to Clinton’s 7. I heard from the next room that their district fell in similar proportion.

We were sectioned off into two corners of the room to select our 11 delegates, plus 11 backups, to attend the county convention on March 29th. Only 17 remained so the Obama camp had to settle for 6 backups.

One of which seems to be me.

183 Responses to “The Curious Experience of Caucusing in Texas”

  1. shcb Says:

    good to hear you’re getting involved, you will appreciate the process more.

  2. ymatt Says:

    Something I forgot to mention… There was also a Republican caucus at the same location tonight. Weirdly it seemed to be comprised of one chairperson, and one potential delegate. I have no idea what it was about, but there was much chuckling from the rest of us.

  3. ymatt Says:

    And now that I’ve had time to sit and think back on the proceedings, I’m struck by how disorganized the whole thing was. The party rules that were meant to prevent any group from subverting the proceedings were ignored and, although Obama won the most delegates, it’s hard to say if the numbers were accurately counted or assigned. The older gentleman who was running things did some odd things such as ask for “nominees to lead the Clinton caucus”, then took the winner of that voting and assigned her the role of the chairperson. Somebody spoke up about this and it wasn’t clear (honestly) if he was just being senile or cunning. The Obama camp precinct captains were clearly much less organized than those for Clinton (who seemed to be supported by a large, vocal cadre of middle-aged women).

    So I dunno, I have no real reason to believe that anything untoward really happened here, but I guess it’s a little depressing that I can very much see how these conventions can go wrong. Politics felt very local indeed tonight. Very interesting.

  4. leftbehind Says:

    But in the final analysis, it’s good to see that Texas did the right thing and helped keep the Clinton campaign going. Hopefully, this is the beginning of a change in Hillary’s fortunes, and marks the onset of a historic comeback.

  5. knarlyknight Says:

    thanks ymatt that was interesting: especially the cunning senility of it all!

  6. Steve Says:

    In the end, what matters is not the process itself. What matters is the legitimacy that everyone assigns to the process. Our government only functions at the consent of the people.

    ymatt, from what you saw, was the process legitimate enough for you?

  7. ymatt Says:

    Yes, it was. I was talking to jbc about this, and I mentioned that it was very much a “helping make the sausage” experience, but it is a tasty sausage in the end.

    By the way, the latest results that I’m seeing on the Texas Democrats webpage is that Hillary will walk away with 4 more delegates than Obama in the primary, and (although it’s still early) Obama will probably have the edge in the caucus delegates.

  8. NorthernLite Says:

    One thing is for sure: The democratic pocess in the US is alive and well! At least on the ‘D’ side anyway. Gives me great hope.

  9. ymatt Says:

    That is true. It was amazing seeing and talking to a lot of people the other night who clearly had never done this before (like me), many of them a bit wide-eyed (like me) at the spectacle. It’s a wan sort of silver lining to the last 8 years that they may have inspired a generation of people to reengage in the political process — and I don’t think it’s just the D’s. It will be interesting to see how much churning of Congress happens in the next few years.

  10. shcb Says:

    This campaign gets more interesting every day

  11. enkidu Says:

    Golly, that sure sounds fair, right? (Obama wasn’t even on the ballot in Michigan)

    FL should redo their primary if they want their voted counted prior to the convention.

  12. shcb Says:

    The Clinton’s have several layers of unfair to go before they even get to illegal, but they will get there in due course.

  13. knarlyknight Says:

    That’s probably a correct forecast, based on past trend lines (e.g. Bushrovian crimes.)
    On a not all that unrelated matter, did you hear Rove’s explanation for phoning Zellikow during the 911 investigation on 4 occasions? He says he phoned to inform Zelikow about an elderly neighbor (92) with a WWII oral history and an old lady with potentially historically valuable Republican materials from her work in the party over some 40 years. It’s not even a remotely believable lie, but the audience lapped it all up because of the nationalistic and patriotic fervour with which he spun the yarn.

  14. enkidu Says:

    heh, pretty funny, shcb
    at least your sense of humor is better developed than some around here.

    how low will McSame go?

  15. shcb Says:


    McCain will dance down the sidelines like Jerry Rice. If he can get a toe out of bounds without the ref seeing him so be it. The Clintons on the other hand will knock over the old lady in the wheel chair to catch the ball in the third row if they have to. Obama and Bush will stay 3 yards from the line even if it means not making the catch.

  16. knarlyknight Says:


    Throw Bush into the same category as the Clinton’s and I’d agree with that. Does that make you more partisan than me? I think so.

    Did you know that there are still two candidates for the Republican nomination, despite McCain having clinched the delegate count? Any reasonable comments as to why Ron Paul has not conceded or why there is absolutely no mainstream media coverage of that anomaly?

  17. shcb Says:


    Bush isn’t a bad guy and hasn’t done anything wrong, much as you wish for it to be true it simply isn’t. But that will just get us into a pissing match, Ron Paul is more interesting.

    Paul is a true believer, he truly believes in libertarianism, unless the pork is for his district of course. But at least he is faithful in his message and like most dogmatic true believers he is un electable in anything but local elections. I only know what I researched in the last ten minutes about his district, the 14th, but it is Texas coastline the size of Massachusetts with two cities of 60,000 and one of 18,000 the rest is small towns with shrimpers, oil patch hands, farmers and ranch hands, all independent, salt of the earth types. These are the type of people that someone like Paul resonates with. They don’t need nor want government intrusion into their lives. So he can be elected there, but his message won’t be accepted in Dallas, much less Detroit. So why isn’t the press covering him? Because there is no story, he is a quirk, like Tom Tancredo. They have no illusion of actually winning the presidency but they run because it get’s their message out and it raises money from all over the country that they can use in their next congressional race. And with what is left over they can help fund candidates in other races that have some of the same philosophies. Paul is old, he may run another time, maybe not, but he has what, 5 million dollars left over, that can run 4 or 5 Senate races, maybe 8 or 10 congressional runs. With this one presidential run he could be funding likeminded politicians after his death. What a legacy. He’s not doing this because he is a bad person, to the contrary, he could be using this money to travel and schmooze with the upper crust, but he will leave it as a sort of trust fund for his beliefs.

    A question back to you. If he had not run for president would you have known who he is or what his message was? Mission accomplished.

  18. shcb Says:

    Since voter fraud was alluded to in this thread and Republicans have once again been labeled crooked, I present Colorado house bill 1039, requiring a photo ID to vote and HB 1177 requiring proof of citizenship, not necessarily a photo ID but a passport or birth certificate. Both failed to make it out of committee (State veterans and military affairs committee) last week, the bills were defeated before they were voted on the house floor. The vote was along strict party lines, 7 D’s and 4 R’s. There has been little to no mention in the local press. Party trumps person.

  19. ymatt Says:

    So he can be elected there, but his message won’t be accepted in Dallas, much less Detroit.

    Heh, well as it turns out I can very much speak to what is accepted in Dallas and I saw quite a lot of Ron Paul stuff here: bumper stickers, freeway banners, even (weirdly) somebody who had written “Ron Paul” in the dirt on the side of an 18-wheeler. But more directly, I work with a lot of reasonably affluent suburbanite types who think Paul is the man. As I always tell people around here, I think Paul is actually the President most Americans would want if they only knew him as other than a “fringe candidate”.

    Honestly, he just doesn’t have one of the magic three things that make the media take you seriously: money, power, or celebrity. But hopefully if there’s one thing the media takes away from the Republican nomination race this time, it’s that money (Romney), power (Rudy), and celebrity (Thompson) alonedon’t cut it for voters, and so the only candidate with any sort of credibility, McCain, glided into the nomination. If they would have given Paul the viability blessing from the get-go (or at least once he started pulling in a ton of money), I bet it would have been an interesting race.

  20. ymatt Says:

    By the way, I just picked this up on CNN:

    State Democratic Party officials say that final results from Tuesday’s caucuses won’t be certified until county-level conventions convene on March 29, but that they expect to release their last batch of unofficial results Thursday evening.

    Knowing what I (now) know about this Texas caucus process, I think we can safely interpret that as “fuck it, let’s do it the old fashioned way”, ie. let’s just let the delegates show up and vote rather than trying to get a count done for them ahead of time.

    Once more into the breech for me!

  21. knarlyknight Says:

    Geronimo! GL ymatt, but no need to report back unless there’s a scandal or more senility. chuckle. And thanks for your comments about RPaul, especially the eyes on the ground in Dallas, all interesting.

    You too shcb, thanks, your comments were much as I’d suspected to be the case but you added depth to my understanding.

    Did not see any answer to why he has not conceded. The money must be drying up, there is no sense in contributing to a lost cause. In my opinion, continuing his lost fight for the nomination just undermines some of the credibility gains he has made, and he has gained a lot of credibility. He’s not getting any press, so it’s not like hanging in there helps to get his message out. So I can think of only a few reasons why he hasn’t thrown in the towel, none of them very good: 1. stupid pride; 2. he has some long shot hope that delegates will revolt when they discover McCain was not a prisoner of war but was actually hiding out in a Vietnamese gay bar for 5 years; 3. he’s stubborn and likes geting his message out; 4. he wants to remain as a thorn in the side of the current Republican establishment he has grown to hate for how far they have drifted away from fiscal responsibility (or at least his own pretty well informed idea of FR) and for how far they have buried the constitutional principles of America, and for …. I’ll stop there I think I convinced myself the reason is #4 and I was beginning to sound like his webpage.
    Someone’s gotta have a better reason for his not conceding – ymatt, is this another example of being unable to determine if it is cunning strategy or senility? He does not sound senile to me.

  22. shcb Says:

    Sure you will find people who like these strong willed and righteous candidates, but they simply can’t be elected to anything but local races. Tancredo and before him Pat Schroeder were the same. They are Colorado politicians so I know them but the same type is in all states. Matt is right about some of the reasons they won’t be elected, but just because the reasons are frivolous and silly doesn’t make these candidates more electable.

    Why has he not conceded? I haven’t looked but my guess is he has all but stopped actively campaigning (spending money) his name is still on every poll and every crawler showing the delegate count, and staying in means the Republicans will have to give him a stage at the convention. He has proven a third party candidate can function inside one of the major parties by utilizing a new fangled thing called the internet. Kind of cool for an old man to be the one to pioneer that aspect of politics (I know Edwards did it first, us old guys need to be thrown a bone every now and then).

    He’s been in politics longer than most of you have been alive and has been consistent throughout, he has been unsuccessful as both a state wide candidate and a third party candidate, this is the best he’s ever done, and he should be proud of this accomplishment. He has moved the discussion from the left and right to the point around back where libertarianism resides. He has also proven a more moderate, better looking, more charismatic slightly libertarian candidate can collect enough money to mount a viable campaign. Mission accomplished.

  23. enkidu Says:

    “Bush isn’t a bad guy and hasn’t done anything wrong”

    I don’t have time to list all the many blunders of the worst president in 100 years… how about:

    Lied to get us in to a war in Iraq
    Bungling Afghanistan
    Katrina response
    Illegally tapping the phones of Americans without FISA oversight
    Roadmap to Peace
    Tax cuts that favor the rich
    Holding the hand of Saudi douchebag and talking about bluebells
    Bungled US tax surplus
    Worst federal deficits ever
    Response to science of climate change
    Worst job creation record is decades
    Failed to change US energy policy after 9/11 (see Cheney, Energy Task Force)

    and my personal favorite:
    nearly choked to death on a pretzel
    (how f’ing stupid can one man be? o wait it’s w…)

    I could go on, identify specific laws broken, lives ruined thousands of dead Americans and perhaps as many as a million dead Iraqis, but it won’t change your mind in the least. Partisanship trumps citizenship for dear shcb.

  24. shcb Says:


    This is what I meant about going down that road would just turn into a pissing match. The bulk of your charges aren’t based in anything resembling fact (still waiting for an example of a lie) and the rest are either his (and mine) opinions versus yours or they are who cares, holding hands with a Saudi? Global warming for instance is just a natural occurrence with the bulk of the warming coming from, wait for it, the sun. There is a Russian scientist that makes a good case that we are in the beginnings of a cooling trend.

    The Clintons on the other hand are just bad people with bad friends.

  25. leftbehind Says:

    I’m with Inky. Choking is beneath contempt. Fuck Tennessee Williams!!!

  26. enkidu Says:

    I take it back rwnj: you don’t have a healthy sense of humor.
    bush choked on the pretzel because it went down the wrong pipe.
    That is a fact.

    Many of those other items are facts, no opinion at all. Your value judgement of the Clinton’s is clearly mis-informed partisan extemist opinion.
    lefty, stfu, back in your cave.

  27. knarlyknight Says:

    As much as I agree that rwnj partisianship trumps citizenship (great line Enk), and that shcb doesn’t see any facts because he shuts his eyes and screams LALALALALALA!! anytime a fact gets too uncomfortably close to him, I’d like to share an interesting item from Rense about The Curious Experience of Caucusing in Texas (which is after all the topic of this thread, ahem.)

  28. shcb Says:

    I really didn’t want to get into this, put yourself in my shoes, you say he lied, I say give me an example, you say well it was more like a deception, a few weeks later you say he lied, it has gone past déjà vu to surreal. And yet you keep believing he lied and I am the one who is a mindless partisan follower even after I give you the statute that gives the President the authority to utilize warrant-less wiretaps. I sometimes feel like Lewis Black coming out of one Starbucks only to see another across the street and realizing he is at the center of the universe.

    Lied to get us in to a war in Iraq – sigh, example please

    Bungling Afghanistan – I guess you are using a different benchmark Taliban has been defeated, they have held elections seems things are going pretty well there

    Katrina response – by law he can’t move troops in without the ok of the Democrat governor, who only grudgingly gave him the ok after Bush was on the ground, four or five days later. People were moved from the superdome by the next evening.

    Illegally tapping the phones of Americans without FISA oversight – read the FISA law, he can tap phones of Americans if they are suspected of terrorists ties. The FISA law gives him that authority, not exclude that authority. Read the damn law, don’t be so lazy that all the information you base your decisions on is from a 45 second out of context film strip.

    Roadmap to Peace – you can have this one, stupid idea, peace will only come with the death of the radicals in that area, either by a bullet or old age.

    Tax cuts that favor the rich – platitude, way too complicated for you to grasp and impossible until you get over your envy of anyone making a dollar more than you

    Holding the hand of Saudi douchebag and talking about bluebells – you got me there, shaking the hand of foreign dignitary, march em’ to the gallows!

    Bungled US tax surplus – ditto tax cuts

    Worst federal deficits ever – ditto

    Response to science of climate change – and you complain about “worst federal deficit” and yet you want us to decimate the free market capitalism that has made this country great so socialists can take over all because of some goofy science that is based on bad models. Ditto tax cuts

    Worst job creation record is decades- not really something the president has a lot of say so over unless they are government jobs and then we’re back to making that pesky “Worst federal deficits ever” worser

    Failed to change US energy policy after 9/11 (see Cheney, Energy Task Force)- who blocked drilling in Anwar?

    and my personal favorite:
    nearly choked to death on a pretzel – got me there, Sergeant, marshal a firing squad at once!

  29. leftbehind Says:

    Now c’mon, Inky. Don’t you think you’re being a little disingenuous here? I mean, really. I realize that you’ve never started a war or anything, or bungled anything as important as Afghanistan, especially since no one’s dumb enough to put you in charge of anything or actually listen to anything you say (even if they will let you fly an army jet – boy, would I love to sell THAT guy a bridge.) Really, though – can you actually say that you’ve never, ever choked on a piece of food? A pretzel? A potato chip? I know you people eat grits down there – they’re probably easy to choke on.

  30. knarlyknight Says:

    I got an idea. Let’s just cut and paste the previous 100,000,000,000 words we’ve thrown back and forth on these subjects, including all the insults. That would save so much time we could actually walk away from our computers and do something real for a change.

  31. knarlyknight Says:

    Or we could just post a bunch of links to stories until no-one cares anymore.

    What I would like to see is this debate move from arenas like this into a more logical framework where the debate is controlled by rules of law. You know, something like the Hague International Court, or failing that I would even settle for something like this:

  32. knarlyknight Says:

    Back to my pet subject, Ron Paul and how it relates to the topic of this thread (remember? it is Caucusing in Texas…) this was interesting to read yesterday:

    I am involved here and I am a delegate to the state senatorial convention. John McCain currently has ZERO committed delegates from Texas. That’s right—ZERO!!! The MSM has told you he has won the convention based on the delegates he won in Texas. Let me repeat, John McCain currently has ZERO delegates from Texas. We have the state senatorial convention and the Texas State convention to determine the delegates to go to the National Convention. They quite well may all be Ron Paul delegates.

    Now I do not believe that in its entirety, but it does suggest to me there is a truth somewhere between that statement and what the MSM (medicated strange media) suggests. I beleive RPaul wants to run but will be forced to shut down his campaign by a dearth of funding. But don’t believe me, think for yourself; here are two sides, you can figure out where the “truth lies” (and by the way, if a major scandal involving John McCain comes to the spotlight all bets are off!):


    Alternative media:

  33. shcb Says:

    The dailypaul guy doesn’t want to face reality is all, it happens when you put your whole heart and soul into something. notice how similar the Paul spokesman’s statements were to mine? The dailypaul guy thinks the objective was for Paul to win the presidency, it wasn’t, he is just a little naive

  34. shcb Says:

    if a major scandal involving McCain comes to light, Romney will and Huck will restart their campaigns and Paul will still have 1 or 2 percent of the vote, something insignificant.

  35. shcb Says:


    In regards to your March 8th, 2008 at 9:59 am post, I would love to discuss the legalities of going to war. Are you sure you’re up to it? In general you guys don’t fair very well when it comes to fact checked debates, you’re stronger with emotional, fuzzy wuzzy points of view. The Kucinich bill for instance, did you read it? Judging from past performance I doubt it, you probably just saw impeach bla bla bla Cheney bla bla bla bunch of names, close enough. I particularly liked point

    (1) Despite all evidence to the contrary, the Vice President actively and systematically sought to deceive the citizens and Congress of the United States about an alleged threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction:

    All evidence? Really, you realize I would have a field day with that don’t you, we would work our way from the UN to most of the intelligence agencies in the world. Then we have the statement that a million Iraqi citizens (innocent) have been killed. Really, not the super inflated 650,000, too many numbers to remember I guess, just round it up to an even mil. No wonder this bill was never taken seriously.

    Sure you want to take on this task?

  36. knarlyknight Says:

    Hi shcb,

    Not a chance. I’d like to see the pros argue the Kucinich bill in a fair forum, a debate on this with you will change neither of our minds. Did I read the Kucinich bill? Yea, I scanned it (a month or so ago?) and I was not impressed. I threw it into the mix here only as an example, if you re-read that post you might see that was fairly obvious.

    “Despite all evidence to the contrary” means that all evidence that did not fit the VP’s agenda was discarded and NOT shared with the American people. Obviously it does not mean that all the evidence showed there were no WMD’s. That’s part of the reason I have no interest in debating this with you here, it’s just a waste of time correcting your intentional warping of words.

    By the way, great comments on the Ron Paul thing, I agree with you 100% there, even though I’d like to see a fairy tale ending to his run at the presidency.

  37. shcb Says:

    Here is something else that is interesting, the Republicans to some degree voted for the bill, this would have forced the hand of the Democrats, so instead of this issue being used as red meat for folks like you, (the far left base) the general public would see the evidence, or lack there of for impeachment and would see the Dems in congress as the stooges they are. In typical liberal fashion they (the dems) then accused the Republicans of doing what they were doing. They feigned indignation that the Republicans would use such a serious issue (impeachment) as a political tool. Since there is no cause for impeachment, this is what the Dems were doing in the first place. In the end the Dems folded because of course they didn’t even have a pair of deuces, same as you.

    “I am surprised that Republicans would treat an issue as important as the potential impeachment of a Vice President of the United States as a petty political game. It is beneath the dignity of this institution,” wrote Hoyer in the prepared statement. “This is a continuation of Republicans’ gotcha games that achieve nothing more than short term entertainment for themselves, while showing their disdain for the importance of the people’s business.”

  38. shcb Says:

    By the way, the Dems own congress, I wouldn’t call that a fair forum, but it certainly is a favorable, even friendly forum, but they don’t seem to want to show their cards. Why do you think TV has said repeatedly to “bring it on!” in regards to impeachment.

  39. NorthernLite Says:

    History will be the one to define George W. Bush’s presidency. In my opinion, because of his incompetence and because of outright lies and deceit to the American people and to the world, he will not be remembered favorably.

    Anyone who thinks otherwise in blinded by their own partisanship.

    SHCB, I have a question for you:

    Many right-wingers seem to think converting their economies to be more green will destroy their economy.

    Why is it then that the countries that are implementing green technologies and sustainable energy initiatives are doing just fine, while your economy is in the dumps?

    Your argument doesn’t hold water, and even John McCain realizes that. What’s going to happen if you don’t take your heads out of the sand is the US will fall even further behind in green technologies (= green jobs = economy growing).

    Science is our friend, not our enemy.

  40. NorthernLite Says:

    “I’m occaisionaly reading, I want you to know, in the second term.”

    George W. Bush
    Washington DC, March 2005

    (Perhaps he should read the science behind climate change :-)

  41. enkidu Says:

    shcb said “Lied to get us in to a war in Iraq – sigh, example please”

    how about 232 examples (WMDz) and another 28 (al qaeda/iraq)

    “President Bush, for example, made 232 false statements about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and another 28 false statements about Iraq’s links to Al Qaeda.”

    260 false statements – otherwise called lies

    I could do the same with each point but I have better things to do.

  42. shcb Says:


    That is one statement that turned out to be wrong many months later, not a lie. 0 times 260 still equals 0, unless of course you change the definition of the word to fit your needs, something liberals have never had a problem doing.


    I don’t think a country buying into the “green” fad is going to make it’s economy much better or worse. This green thing is for the most part sales hype. “Ford is greener than Chevy, buy our truck, it runs on ethanol, no oil” (except for the oil to run the tractors, and trucks, and the natural gas to run the power plant to produce the electricity to refine the corn (can’t use coal, not PC anymore)). It’s kind of like “organic” food, our family farm raised “organic” wheat, it was only 160 acres (homesteaded and passed down through the generations), the guy that farmed it made a ton of money selling his wheat to yuppies because he didn’t use pesticides on that 160 acres, of course it was surrounded by 600 acre parcels that had the crap sprayed out of them.

    Conservatives have no problem conserving, it’s in our name after all, we just want there to be a real reason and we want to do it in a sensible manner. If new scrubber technology for coal fired plants comes out install it when the old one is ready to be replaced, don’t mandate it when all it will help is a fraction of a percentage.

    It wasn’t widely reported but Bush signed a bill all but outlawing incandescent light bulbs in a few years. This is of course to lower electricity usage, only one problem, it doesn’t. A small town in I forget where had a light bulb exchange program, bring in your old bulbs and they would give you a compact florescent for free. Electricity usage went up 7 or 8 percent. Problem was the new bulbs have to be left on 15 minutes or the life is drastically reduced, they also take a while to come to full brightness so people were leaving them turned on all the time instead of clicking them on when they went into the room and off when they left. Hopefully new technology will fix these problems before the law takes effect, but it is a bad idea to pass such a law before that. Bad Bush, bad.

    I’m designing a new ceiling system now and one of the things I plan on incorporating is LED lighting in the grid system, drastically reducing the need for even florescent lights. We are also working on “smart” systems to open and close window coverings inside and outside the building to limit air conditioning usage. Most of these innovations are because of new technologies not because it is being mandated, and guess what, we plan on making a profit, a huge profit if we can. But it has to sell, and it has to make sense before it will sell.

    The Denver City Council tried (and failed thank god) to pass a law that would make it illegal for grocery stores to use plastic shopping bags, paper only please. The problem is that it takes 10 times the space for the same number of bags, 10 trucks and trailers verses 1, not very environmentally sound, not to mention the paper bags take more energy to produce than the plastic to start with. I went into a grocery store in Holland and everyone brought a few bags with them, great idea, but that is a cultural thing.

    The part of things like Kyoto conservatives really get upset about is the socialistic “take it from the rich and give it to the poor aspect” one way or another America was going to pay a “tax” to poorer countries (carbon offsets and such) and we weren’t going to get a new bridge or an educated child from those dollars, they were just gone, bad for the economy and didn’t do squat for the environment.

    Reasonable science is our friend, socialists are not.

  43. shcb Says:


    I don’t think I really answered your question. The reason the US economy has fallen relative to the rest of the world has nothing to do with whether we embrace “green” policies, it is a combination of an over valued dollar, high oil prices, bad loan policies etc.

  44. TeacherVet Says:

    Great job, Inky, in finding a source that perfectly matches your own non-partisanship standards. With such glowing, credible reviews from such non-partisan giants as The New York Times, Harry Shearer, Comedy Central’s Jon Stewart, Reuters, The Washington Post>/i>, NPR, Keith Olbermann, TPM Muckraker, Daily Kos… this “study” by the “Center for Public Integrity” is far above suspicion or reproach. In truth, your source is no more non-partisan than Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, etc.

    Comparison: Since Katrina, scientists have predicted numerous monster hurricanes for each and every summer, guaranteed to wipe out cities in the areas of the Gulf region and the Eastern seaboard. All lies, I tell ya (using the liberal definition), based on faulty, cherry-picked global warming intelligence (as we all know now, in hindsight). The lies were repeated thousands of times by news sources worldwide – accomplices in the massive fraud, all of them. Thousands of doomsday weather-related lies… thousands of them… someone must do a “study” to expose all those criminals.

  45. TeacherVet Says:

    I failed to properly close the italics – sorry. Impeach me!

    Great job, Inky, in finding a source that perfectly matches your own non-partisanship standards. With such glowing, credible reviews from such non-partisan giants as The New York Times, Harry Shearer, Comedy Central’s Jon Stewart, Reuters, The Washington Post, NPR, Keith Olbermann, TPM Muckraker, Daily Kos… this “study” by the “Center for Public Integrity” is far above suspicion or reproach.

    Comparison: Since Katrina, scientists have predicted numerous monster hurricanes for each and every summer, guaranteed to wipe out cities in the areas of the Gulf region and the Eastern seaboard. All lies, I tell ya (using the liberal definition), based on faulty, cherry-picked global warming intelligence (as we all know now, in hindsight). The lies were repeated thousands of times by news sources worldwide – accomplices in the massive fraud, all of them. Thousands of doomsday weather-related lies… thousands of them… someone must do a “study” to expose all those criminals.

  46. knarlyknight Says:

    NL, SHCB – clearly you both have different views on environmental / global warming issues / science, and you are both probably partially right.

    FYI shcb – your statement “reasonable science is our friend” makes about as much sense as “islamic terrorist”, in other words it makes no sense.

    Science is impartial and absolute. Where it is wrong, it gets corrected in time as new discoveries are made. Period.

    Islam is a submission to God’s will. One who submits to God’s will by definition can not be a terrorist. Therefore terrorists are NEVER Islamic, just like mercenaries are NEVER Christians.

    Regarding the lies told by your administration to push your country into the Iraq war, I think our disagreement comes from the clash between (1) my willingness to believe that there is no way in hell that a reasonably intelligent person could have (a) overlooked or disregarded the evidence indicating that Saddam did not have WMD’s and (b) considered evidence such as that offered by the known liar Chalabi as more credible than the counter evidence and (2) your willingness to trust your administration’s excuses that they were naive and were mislead by the evidence they received. You won’t accept (1) and I won’t accept (2). That is an impasse.

    FYI, belief in (2) brings McCain and a 100 year war with Iran et al, leading to a poorer futture or early death for your grandchildren.

    FYI, besides impeachment proceedings, here is where (1) takes us:

    As of January, 2007, the Bush Administration had been caught telling 935 lies. No folks, we didn’t say mistakes, they told 935 LIES. The most audacious lies being the administration’s manipulation of intelligence used to get us into war with Iraq. These lies have, as of today, claimed a total of 3,975 in Iraq alone. The U.S. led occupation in Iraq has also claimed close to 90,000 Iraqi civilian lives. All of this death and destruction has been due bold face lies told by the Bush Administration.

    What was just outlined in the paragraph above is not disputed by members of the progressive left or even by their beloved candidates, Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY) and Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL). Why then, after this criminal administration has been caught in 935 lies, some of which have led to close to 100,000 deaths, is this administration given a free pass by the left when it comes to 9/11? While we don’t agree with labeling the ideas advanced by the 9/11 Truth Movement as conspiracy theories, let us, for the sake of the argument discuss the idea of conspiracy theories involving the Bush Administration. Please also remember, a conspiracy is, by definition, “an agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.” Therefore, when the progressive left asserts that the President and his administration knowingly manipulated intelligence in order to lead our nation to war in Iraq, they are advancing what can be defined as a conspiracy theory. Is the left only interested in advancing conspiracy theories that are popular and accepted by the rest of their constituents?

    Additionally, the Bush Administration fought very hard to stifle any inquiry into 9/11. If 9/11 was a major government failure, as is maintained by proponents of the official account, then wouldn’t the president and vice president want to know everything about that failure and reprimand or fire those responsible? Instead, we’ve seen two inquiries, one led by the Congress and one by the 9/11 Commission. Both of these inquiries were given limited access to information, and in the case of the 9/11 Commission, led by a White House insider. Even if the official version of events is true, how is this acceptable? Don’t the family members of the victims of 9/11 deserve to have answers as to why their loved ones are no longer with us? Don’t we, as Americans, deserve to know?

    In conclusion, we implore the progressive left to support the millions of concerned citizens across the United States who are advocating for an independent inquiry into 9/11. Advocating for a real investigation into 9/11 is not subscribing to conspiracy theories. It’s subscribing to the idea of truth, accountability, and justice. What’s so bad about that? Remember, these people are proven liars, their lies have led to the deaths of thousands of people. Why should 9/11 be treated any differently?

    Student Scholars for 9/11 Truth

  47. enkidu Says:

    “President Bush, for example, made 232 false statements about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and another 28 false statements about Iraq’s links to Al Qaeda.”

    260 different lies
    not one lie that you disbelieve

    your new math doesn’t work out there rwnj

  48. shcb Says:


    Would your accuracy filter be happier if I said “reasonable scientists and their science is our friend, socialists and their unreasonable scientists are not”?

    Islam is a submission to God’s will. One who submits to God’s will by definition can not be a terrorist. Therefore terrorists are NEVER Islamic, just like mercenaries are NEVER Christians.

    Really? So who were those guys beheading folks live at five a couple years ago? Actors on a sound stage in California probably.

    Something you guys seem to not take into consideration about the run up to this war is what if we would have given more weight to Sadam not having WMD’s and we had been wrong. Sometimes you have to error on the side of caution.

    Now this quote you just gave said 90,000 Iraqis dead, Kucinich says a mil, the Palestinian woman says 650,000. And ya’ll wonder why we have trouble taking you seriously. Facts don’t seem to be your friend.

  49. NorthernLite Says:


    I personally don’t think that demanding wealthy, industrialized nations – who have contributed 99% of the environmental damage to our planet – to invest more to rectify the problem is asking too much. You may call that “socialism”, I call it moral responsibility.

    And you still didn’t address why world economies that are going green are flourishing. You did address why the US economy is tanking, which really doesn’t have anything to do with their lack of investment in green technologies, but rather many other bad economic policies. It makes me wonder why you would listen to those same “economists” when they say being more environmentally friendly will destroy your country.

    As for your points about light bulbs and grocery bags, the fact that you are using those minimal items as a counter argument really shows your lack of understanding about the environmental problems we face as a human race. For example, my energy –saving bulbs do not have to be on for at least 15 minutes to save power, that’s just fucked up and I think whoever decided on those bulbs needs to go back to school and learn how to do some research.

  50. NorthernLite Says:

    Perhaps if you weren’t pissing away 12 billion a month (!) on two wars you wouldn’t mind spending a little money to leave your children and grandchildren a more sustainable and healthy planet.

  51. knarlyknight Says:

    Nice to see shcb admit there was evidence against WMD’s.

    Using his logic about “erring on the side of caution” suggests America should have bombed the hell of half the countries in the world by now, wiped out North Korea, Russia and China all in one fell swoop.

    For your information, erring on the side of caution does NOT mean: ATTACK!!!

    Erring on the side of caution means playing defence while getting at the truth. Seems to me with homeland security not yet even close to securing your ports from a dirty bomb attack in a cargo container you folks do not seriously think erring on the side of caution has any merit and you folks certainly have not learned how to be cautious.

  52. knarlyknight Says:

    NL – amen.

  53. shcb Says:

    You guys are idiots, the US doesn’t produce 99% of the worlds pollution, it may provide the technology to clean up 99% but it doesn’t produce it. What exactly was going to happen with all that money from Kyoto? Was China going to clean up it’s water supply? Was Romania going to stop using 2 cycle engines, pumping so much diesel fumes into the air you can’t see or breath? No, it was just going to be pissed away, thank god we had a president (2 actually, even Clinton didn’t buy in into the Kyoto crap) that had the sense to tell the socialists to keep there grubby hands off our treasure.

    NL, I know the environment is a hot issue for you, but I can remember Carl Sagan saying we were all going to be living in a nuclear winter from global cooling because of pollution by the year 2000 if we didn’t stop bla bla bla. That just happened to be the same year Ted Danson said there would be no life left in the ocean if we didn’t bla bla bla. Keeping the earth as clean as reasonably possible is a noble and worthwhile cause. Destroying the economies that make that possible to achieve some utopian goal is just foolish. So excuse me if I don’t believe everything I hear from the chicken littles.

    The economies that are “going green” are looking good because the US is on a down turn not because they are on an upturn. Look at unemployment in France and Germany. Being more environmentally friendly won’t hurt the economy if it is done reasonably, paying money to bloodsuckers to placate liberal’s guilt will.

    How exactly does going green help an economy? It might, I just don’t know how. Less waste? Using nuclear power like France? That might help. Mandated wind power in Germany is costing about 30% more than coal fired plant electricity, they are also having problems with exploding transformers that have to be replaced. It has made the grid so unstable equipment shuts down because of power spikes. Does that help an economy?

    This is the problem with making policy based on feel good rhetoric instead of thoughtful research.

    If we weren’t pissing away billions a month, your country would be. By the way aren’t you guys up north doubling your defense spending in the next 5 years? Wonder where that money is going. Maybe a few bil to the war?

    In a free and open society with as dynamic an economy as ours you can’t inspect every package, every container, every inch of the border, that is why you kill the bastards where the live and breath.

    It’s a good thing adults have been in charge for the last few years. And we’ll survive the D’s running things for a few, then the R’s will have to clean up the mess again.

  54. enkidu Says:

    Iraq had no operational relationship with Al Qaeda
    “An exhaustive review of more than 600,000 Iraqi documents that were captured after the 2003 U.S. invasion has found no evidence that Saddam Hussein’s regime had any operational links with Osama bin Laden’s al Qaida terrorist network.

    The Pentagon-sponsored study, scheduled for release later this week, did confirm that Saddam’s regime provided some support to other terrorist groups, particularly in the Middle East, U.S. officials told McClatchy. However, his security services were directed primarily against Iraqi exiles, Shiite Muslims, Kurds and others he considered enemies of his regime.

    The new study of the Iraqi regime’s archives found no documents indicating a “direct operational link” between Hussein’s Iraq and al Qaida before the invasion, according to a U.S. official familiar with the report.”

    – – – –

    600,000 documents in the study. One assumes each of the 600,000 dead Iraqis clutched a single document in their hands (thus: they is trrrrists!) before we killed them. To be fair, bad water, lack of electricity, rampant crime and sectarian strife probably killed the majority. Though the US set all those calamities in motion… so. No need to examine how we got here folks!

    Oh and dear rwnj, if you really think the last 8 years have been a great success, I think you should ask your doctor for a brain scan, you seem to be missing yours.

  55. NorthernLite Says:

    Idiots? Hmm, name calling, a sure sign you know you’re wrong on this one. But, I guess I will respond in kind:

    Did I say the US was responsible for 99% of the world’s pollution? No. I said “wealthy, industrialized nations”, which includes many countries, even my own. Learn how to read. Idiot.

    We are increasing our military budget, mostly to assert our arctic sovereignty because global warming is making the ice melt which is opening up the Northwest Passage. Trust me, it’s not so we can go and illegally invade another country. Idiot.

    By the way, we’re also investing heavily in cleaning up our environment, including a plan unveiled yesterday (sort of ironic) by our conservative government that will, among other things, “impose regulations on industry, the source of half the country’s emissions, which will cut greenhouse gases by 165 megatonnes. Combined with other federal and provincial measures, the department estimates Canada will have cut its emissions to 21 per cent below 2006 levels by 2020.”

    This will be one of the “most massive environmental infrastructure projects in Canadian history”. Industry, not taxpayers, will carry the financial burden.

    All this while our country’s financial position is strongest among G8 nations.


  56. NorthernLite Says:

    Idiots? Hmm, name calling, a sure sign you know you’re wrong on this one. But, I guess I will respond in kind:

    Did I say the US was responsible for 99% of the world’s pollution? No. I said “wealthy, industrialized nations”, which includes many countries, even my own. Learn how to read. Idiot.

    We are increasing our military budget, mostly to assert our arctic sovereignty because global warming is making the ice melt which is opening up the Northwest Passage. Trust me, it’s not so we can go and illegally invade another country. Idiot.

    By the way, we’re also investing heavily in cleaning up our environment, including a plan unveiled yesterday (sort of ironic) by our conservative government that will, among other things, “impose regulations on industry, the source of half the country’s emissions, which will cut greenhouse gases by 165 megatonnes. Combined with other federal and provincial measures, the department estimates Canada will have cut its emissions to 21 per cent below 2006 levels by 2020.”

    This will be one of the “most massive environmental infrastructure projects in Canadian history”. Industry, not taxpayers, will carry the financial burden.

    All this while our country’s financial position is strongest among G8 nations.


  57. shcb Says:

    I probably shouldn’t have called you guys idiots, not very professional. But sometime I just get so infuriated, because, well you are. You worry about things that aren’t important, did you know that if humans did nothing to add to co2 other than breath, we would reduce green house gases by 0.05%. The major component in green house gasses by a huge margin is water vapor, clouds, and I don’t think we want to get rid of them. You’re right, I misread your comment, but that statement is just silly the way you have it written, of course an aggregate of all industrialized nations produces most of the pollution. That’s like saying all wife beaters are men, it is inherent in the definition of the words. Change the word to spouse and you have a different animal. If all those countries produced a bazillion tons today and reduced that number to half a bazillion, they would still produce 99% And you don’t worry about things that are important, you defend the enemies of the west that are sworn to destroy us, and villainize those that are doing the protecting, madness.

    …impose regulations on industry…

    Industry, not taxpayers, will carry the financial burden

    We call that an indirect tax, it is kind of the definition of fascism.

    Since your country’s ecconomy is connected at the hip with mine, you are in for a downturn as well, unless this recession is short.

    And last but not least, Inky. Be sure to post that study when it comes out the loaded phrase is “operational relationship”. It’ll be fun to see how that is defined or if it is.

  58. enkidu Says:

    Actually, Germany is using tons of solar.
    They lead the world in passive and pv solar installation (despite their somewhat meager solar resources). One word for you: Nanosolar – cheaper than coal.

    Pointing out that their power grid has weak spots or old equipment is somewhat ironic considering we recently had the same problem in Florida (you know, blacked out much of the state? you know, facts).

    Or I could point out how CA got a new governator due to dumbya’s corrupt buddies gaming the power grid to rip off billions. Facts are facts.

  59. enkidu Says:

    no WMDs, no AQ links, 4000 dead US service men and women, somewhere south of a million Iraqis dead, 3 trillion spent, terrorists and their support skyrocketing and you are going to justify the whole thing on the definition of the word “operational”? That is just weak. Like arguing about the definition of the word “is”.

  60. shcb Says:

    The problem with solar or wind is that it is undependable, you have to have almost a full backup of conventional sources in the event there is no wind or sun (90% is the conventional wisdom). These sources are fine as additives to the grid but once you depend on them for anything more than an insignificant amount of total generation you will have hills and valleys in the grid supply. This is another area where the technology just isn’t there yet. The generation technology is ok but there is no good storage method. Pumping water up hill is the best we have at this point but you use so much energy getting the water to the top it just isn’t efficient except on a small scale. A couple small towns in the mountains use this method around here, but they are only supplying a few hundred households. It really has nothing to do with the age of the equipment. California? Just can’t have a discussion without a little hate the R’s tossed in can you?

  61. shcb Says:

    I’m not justifying the war on the word “operational” just refuting this one point. And of course I am not even doing that now since I don’t know what is in the report. I’m just using past experience to predict what will be said. There was a book written a couple years back, I don’t remember the name or author, that detailed all the connections between Sadam and Arab terrorists. Here is a piece by Deroy Murdock that gives you a feel. What I suspect is in this study (or the liberal spin) will very narrowly define “operational” as having directly helping Al Qaeda or meeting face to face with bin Laden. But of course all they are trying to do is have a headline knowing folks like you won’t read it critically. It’s a struggle but we have to refute these distortions of the truth one at a time, no matter how trivial.

  62. NorthernLite Says:

    shcb, so when your kids were young and they made a mess and you made them clean it up, you were being facist?

    And since were are joined at the hip economically and since we’re also making industry take responsibility for the damage they cause to the environment, Canada’s economy should be really screwed soon.

    We shall see.

  63. shcb Says:


    Your analogy would fit in the case of an oil spill, and then no it wouldn’t be fascist they made the mess they should clean it up. In this case the consumer will pay or the taxpayer will pay and in most cases they are one in the same. So it is just another tax, what makes it fascist is it is something the company wouldn’t do on their own under normal circumstances. Which is fine if Canadians want to pay either way that is their decision, it’s just one more reason for people like your doctors to move south. If the cost gets too high your companies will simply move south to America and our unemployment numbers will go down and yours up. But it shouldn’t be sugar coated, it’s just another tax. It’s like corporate taxes, corporations don’t pay taxes, consumers pay taxes, it’s included in the price of the product, which makes it so silly when you hear people wanting to raise taxes on the evil corporations, they are raising taxes on themselves. Idiots.

  64. enkidu Says:

    So let’s see, you are still referencing discredited pre-war BS from 2003, while a 2008 study completed of 600,000 actual documents we captured in Iraq shows a complete lack of operational relationship btwn Iraq and AQ. None. Zero. Nada. But you just can’t give up the neocon wet dream that invading Iraq will fix everything. It broke a whole lot more than it fixed. Fact.

    Sure Saddam was a bad guy, he harbored bad guys and paid suicide bomber bad guys’ families but the Arab world looked on him with utter contempt for these blatantly BS PR payola stunts. How many terrorists and criminals has the US coddled over the last 50 years? Plenty. For example we funded the Afghan Mujahaddein and helped Pakistan with the Taliban. How did that work out for us?

    So was the Iraq War worth it? 3 trillion dollars. 4000 dead Americans. Up to a million dead Iraqis (bet their relatives are pissed) No WMDs, no AQ ties, no wave of pro-western Democracy sweeping the middle east. $109 a barrel oil, a shredded US Constitution, we now torture people (sickening) the list goes on and on and on.

    Will you be signing all your posts “idiots” from now on? Is that a sig or a comment on your opinion of anyone who dares to disagree w dumbya?
    yMom might not approve.

  65. shcb Says:

    the idiot thing is just a phase I’m going through, like puberty or a mid life crisis, we’ll just have to wait and see what the report says

  66. shcb Says:

    just to show you I have a sence of humor, they just played a cut of Bush singing on the radio staion I’m listening to, I’m sure it’s on utube somewhere, it’s pretty bad.

  67. shcb Says:

    to answer your question, yes it was worth it to do nothing would have been worse.

  68. enkidu Says:

    exactly how worse?
    he had no WMDs, no AQ connection. None.

    We could have concentrated on Afghanistan (which seems to be backsliding quite a bit). Of course if the neocon jingo johnny’s would have read any of Richard Clark’s many memos. Or that PDB “bin Laden determined to strike in US” mentions airliners, hijacking (you know, facts)… unless of course they wanted it to happen… gosh it’s not like the Gulf of Tonkin Incident that lead to the Viet Nam War was faked or anything. Nope, no false flag anything. Ever. Hey look a shiny object! /satire

    my new sig is in bold:
    rwnjs – wrong on Iraq, wrong on Iran, wrong on the economy, wrong on every damn thing since they seized power I just pray President Obama can lead us out of this insane mess dumbya and co. have created. Heck of a job bushie!

  69. shcb Says:

    Inky, you know, I think I may use “idiots” as my tag line. I kind of like it. Yours needs to be shorter. I always liked my favorite liberal’s tage line, Linda Ellerbee’s was “and so it goes”. She is as talented a writer as they come, and a sexy voice to boot. My favorite piece of hers was when she told of her relationship with Frank Zappa shortly after his death. They had been phone friends for a couple years having never met in person. He would call her at least once a week and start the conversation with “Ellerbee, Zappa” then he would continue with something like “are you out of your mind?” she being a liberal and he being a staunch conservative, the two or three hour conversation was heated but civil, kind of reminds me of my conversations here with NL. We have to get your tag line shorter, we’ll work on it .

    So the question on the table is how could it be worse. Right now Iraq is not a problem of epic proportions as it was, the job is not finished but it is manageable, same with Afghanistan. There will be an ebb and flow with these countries for a long time, but right now they are manageable. Iran is still a big problem and Syria a less problem. Without doing what we did in Iraq and sending the message we sent, not to mention killing a bunch of bad guys we would have problems in Libya, Sudan, Pakistan and probably Saudi Arabia. The unfriendlies in those countries would have seen us as “Paper Tigers” in the words of OBL. We have also had much success in the Philippines and Indonesia. All these places were put on notice with our invasion, they of course were given hope with the left’s lack of resolve, but what can you do? It’s just another hurdle we have to deal with. If the Dems win the presidency we’ll have to see if their lack of resolve will affect the Olympics. Muslims in China are flexing their muscles a bit, but of course with China being a closed society they are better able to squash bugs than we are with our legions of lawyers and bleeding heart liberals. I hope it doesn’t get disrupted, no one will see my ceiling in the swimming center if it does.

    This problem is so much bigger than you realize.

  70. NorthernLite Says:


    You can pour toxic waste down your drain for all I care. Because I know it less than a year your country’s policies towards our environment are going to drastically change, whether it be McCain, Clinton or Obama.

    And there’s not a damn thing you can do about it.

  71. NorthernLite Says:

    Btw idiot, Mary Ann is a substance abusing criminal.

    She should hook up with Rush. They’d probably have good times.

  72. shcb Says:

    Given the choices in this race, I’m afraid you’re right NL, there will be many things I will despise but that’s the price of democracy

  73. shcb Says:

    Dawn Wells got busted, Mary Ann still lives on an island after taking a three hour cruise. I’ve been married 30 years, I NEED my fantasies :)

  74. NorthernLite Says:


    Now, I’ll go get the mop. There’s piss everyone on this thread.

  75. shcb Says:

    you know the funny part is my wife told me to write that, no wonder I’ve been married 30 years.

  76. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb – have you seen this item? It might be the “environmentally responsible” final solution to your gopher critter problems.

  77. shcb Says:

    Thanks Knarly,

    The problem with this type of tactic is it kills everything in the hole, snakes, rabbits burrowing owls etc, I want to keep those critters. You also have to have access to all the varmints, I don’t think many of my neighbors would mind the total destruction of the critters but some would. And they will just keep repopulating if you don’t kill them all, and I kind of like having a few around. My neighbor tried using propane, but he was using it to suffocate them, it took a BUNCH of propane to fill a hole. I’ll keep it in mind.

    P.S. Did you see the price? $2,000!!! My wife would kill me.

  78. TeacherVet Says:

    I found a great solution, too – manx “bob”cats. Great hunters. I’ve had them for three years, and they have cleaned out the entire neighborhood of moles, mice, and squirrels, and even a couple of copperheads. We no longer have a single squirrel to screw up attic insulation in this entire heavily wooded neighborhood – not even a nest. They climbed to the very tops of our white oaks and cleaned them out.

    They multiply quickly, but I haven’t had any of them neutered because the word has spread locally and I give them to farmers in the area.

  79. knarlyknight Says:

    Heartwarming posts from both shcb an TV and its not even April fools day yet. I’m smiling.

    Glad to hear you are concerned about collatoral damage, shcb. And I am impressed that you even thought about that. I need to give you more credit sometimes. Now, if you would just transfer that kind spot in your heart for snakes, rabbits and burrowing owls over to Iraqi schoolgirls etc. there might be hope for you yet.

  80. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb, sorry for ending that last post on a sowner note, it’s just habit.

    TV, that’s an awesome manx cat story. Keep me posted about them please.

  81. knarlyknight Says:

    “sowner” shold be “downer”.

  82. enkidu Says:

    putting scads of propane into the ground sounds like a Darwin Award winner
    bet he’s a smoker too

    try hooking up the exhaust from your car to a hose and give them a blast of CO (carbon monoxide)
    note that this will kill anything in those holes, rabbits, snakes etc

    I used the hose method (moderate success) on moles
    what really worked is a snowy owl moved in down the street
    a hungry critter

  83. shcb Says:

    TV, we’re on a treeless plain here and have two coyotes that run, trot actually, they don’t even give the 4 German Shepherds barking at them from the deck a second glance any more, anyway they trot across our property at 7:00 every morning like clockwork, the cats would probably be lunch.

    Inky, I kind of thought the same thing, they include safety glasses with the contraption Knarly linked to, and a small shovel, maybe you dig your grave first? I tried a garden hose thinking I could flood them out, 45 minutes later I still could find no water coming out of the ground, their holes must go on forever. When they got rid of them here at work they used soapy suds to drive them out.

    Knarly, don’t worry about the quip, I would have to have your wife take your temperature if you didn’t make that remark. Glad to see your still in good health and spirits.

    I’ll probably just keep shooting them, it is surgical and I have an old dog that just loves to go out with me. She was in the living room last weekend and I cocked my pellet gun in my office and she came running and panting, ready to accompany the great white hunter. She can barely walk anymore but she runs out to the holes with me. I almost did a Dick Cheney on her a month or so back.

  84. enkidu Says:

    shcb, maybe you could buy TWO of that contraption at $2k each and tell your wife: “but honey! it’s cheaper than Eliot Spitzer’s hooker!”

    a week of sleeping on the couch should be worth it for the vermin control nirvana you may achieve with The Rodenator™

    If the moles return, I’ll let you know how it goes.

  85. shcb Says:



  86. shcb Says:


    Here is an interesting little ditty on the founder of the Weather Channel’s take on global warming. I disagree with him a bit on if the weather cools for the next few years it will prove there is no global warming, weather is not climate. But I agree with him on the rest. Note the math at the end 38/100,000/2 = about 5000 remember I said if we stop all human activity except breathing we would make a 1 in 5000 difference? nothing wrong with limiting polution and cleaning up the messes we make, just do it for the right reasons.,2933,337710,00.html

  87. enkidu Says:

    o yeah a link to fauxnews – now THAT’S convincing!
    let me guess: this guy is a hard core rwnj? I didn’t bother to google him, but he sure sounds like he is a koolaid drinker.

    CO2 is only part of the problem. Remember CFCs? They ate a giant hole in the ozone, until we banned them. The ozone has recovered somewhat. If we do nothing about carbon based fuels, we risk many more unpleasant consequences than just a CO2 rise, there are other green house gases, other pollutants, geopolitical costs, ‘peak oil’ (did u know the Russians have a completely different theory about how oil and gas deposits form? they don’t buy into peak oil). Solar. WInd. Geothermal. Tidal. Burning gobs of dead dinosaurs to make your truck go doesn’t seem very smart at 17 mpg.

    Oil is about $110 a barrel, I recall under Clinton it was under $20.
    Isn’t shrubco a smashing success!?!? Hey hows the stock market doing?

    We should be leading the march away from oil/coal based economies, not playing geopolitical gotcha with the middle eastern oil reserves.

    Watch your Athabasca, Canada.

  88. NorthernLite Says:

    You lost me with the “foxnews” link. They have an agenda they are trying to further with respect to the environment, in case you didn’t know.

    If you want scientifically-based information on this matter, try the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (made of up hundreds of scientists from around the world from over 150 countries).

    This is not some partisan issue people are trying to advance. There’s actually a strong consensus among scientific experts in this field about the cause and solutions.

  89. enkidu Says:

    btw The Weather Channel Founder
    sounds great, until you learn he was booted out after about a year (there has to be a story there… loose the search hounds knarly!) He is now a stand up TV weatherman. Right back where he started. Oh yeah. He’s the sage climate scientist all right (snicker).

    try wikipedia
    in 1982
    “He then founded The Weather Channel, serving as its CEO and President during the startup and its first year of operation. After being forced out at TWC, Coleman became weather anchor at WCBS-TV in New York and then at WMAQ-TV in Chicago, before moving to Southern California to join the independent television station, KUSI-TV in San Diego, in what Coleman fondly calls, “his retirement job”.” 25 years ago a weatherman helped found the weather channel. He was forced out and is now a… wait for it… weatherman. Not some massively credentialed climate researcher. Nope. A ‘happy talk’ weatherman.

    Even if carbon dioxode isn’t the boogieman, the idea that humanity should take care of it’s cradle is obvious, unless you are more partisan than citizen on spaceship earth.

    Here is a cool graphic that relates:

    the blue green sphere is all the water in the world – including fresh and salt water. The pale pink sphere is our supply of air. Sure on a human scale those are vast amount of water and air. But 6 or 7 billion human beings now control the biosphere. message? don’t screw it up

    funny how conservatives aren’t for conservation

  90. shcb Says:


    Everyone has an agenda, I looked up the IPCC on Wiki, they were founded in 1988 I believe. Their stated mission is to advance the climatic opinion of the UN, not exactly a pro American, or pro capitalistic organization. No agenda there. They also don’t do research according to this article. Were they the group that started this whole mess? If they were, they were made up of something over 2000 scientists, with only a handful, less than a couple dozen, that were climatologists or meteorologists. They were mostly politically connected bureaucrats. Which would make sense that they don’t do research. Two or three years after this report came out and people had time to look it over a questionnaire was sent to around 10,000 scientists, the bulk of whom were climatologists, over half of them said the research was either wrongly interpreted or the numbers were cooked. The most glaring was the effect of clouds (the biggest greenhouse gas) was exaggerated by a factor of 8. Over the years I have heard many experts discuss this at length on Rosen’s show. One was a Viscount from Britain that is a scientist, Monkton was his name I think. He went through Gore’s film (the IPCC shares a Nobel prize with AlGore) his and other folks I have listened to say while the Gore film has some truth, he cherry picks his “facts”, there is some melting of the Antarctic ice pack, in one small area, the rest of the pack is either increasing or staying consistent. There are many other examples, there are also examples of just out and out lies, not the type, real lies. Like his assessment of how much the ocean will rise, even if global warming is as it is claimed, responsible scientists say it will rise only a tiny fraction of what AlGore says.

    A professor at the University of Kansas has looked at the data closely, he says it is just junk science, he (and I) don’t think we should ignore it, just study it responsibly. His complaint is that the models being used are junk, they are starting with a predetermined conclusion and manipulating the constants until that conclusion is reached. The proof of that is that if you take historical data, insert it into the models, you don’t return historical (or current) reality. He has made a simple model that retains integrity over a thousand (or ten thousand, don’t remember which) years with the exception of the eruption of Krakatau and WWII, but in both cases the model returns to the baseline within a couple years. His fear is that we are in for a cooling period in the next 200 years, that we are at the peak of a warming cycle. Evidence of that is Greenland, why is landmass that is covered in ice called Greenland? Because a thousand years ago it wasn’t, during the last period of global warming they actually grew grapes there.

    As I’ve said soooo many times, I’m not against conservation, studying or protecting the environment, I just want it to be for realistic reasons rationally.

  91. knarlyknight Says:

    “The Curious Experience of Caucusing in Texas” is not a place where I would expect to see a defence of independent analysis of established scientific consensus and conclusions about global warming.

    Nice to see shcb thinking outside of conventional wisdom, too bad it falls lock-step into line with his partisan ideology. That seems to be the dividing line for shcb: what he sees on False News or hears on Rosen’s show is true to him, anything else is just liberal hyperbole to shcb.

    There is no doubt in my mind that humans have an enormously bleak effect on natural systems and the weakening of nature’s resiliency. Global warming in particular though has long been something that I’ve doubted ever since I learned a year or two ago that other planets in our solar system were experiencing similar increases in temperature to earth as a result of sun cycles. I think shcb is right to point out that consensus of the world’s best thinkers does not mean something is so, just consider what Galileo replied in response to the church and their “scientists”, through the Inquisition (just think waterboards) when asked whether the earth moves.

    The irony is that shcb will place his reputation in the hands of independent thinkers such as a prof. from the U of Kansas (the “intelligent design” state, no less) when it is reported by False News or RWNJ radio, but refuses to entertain independent thoughts when at odds with RWNJ commentators.

    For instance, we are only now learning that the murder weapons used at the world trade towers and the pentagon, i.e. the planes, despite their transponders malfunctioning and the flight data recorders and voice data recorders NOT being recovered, were, CONTRARY to PREVIOUS STATEMENTS, never positively identified. The implications of the FBI being unable to factually verify the identity of the planes (murder weapons) is big: legally and otherwise. That’s the tip of the iceberg, the rest is posted here (note to shcb: just pretend this is a news exclusive by Faux, the announcer comes on speaking: “I can not think of any other time in history when a plane crashed and no identification of the wreckage was performed. This latest inaction by the FBI reeks of cover up… “)

    Link to FBI item in next post.

  92. knarlyknight Says:

    www .

  93. shcb Says:

    you make some good points Knarly, in my defense one of the things a show like Rosen has going for it is that it is three hours long. most guests are there for at least an hour sometimes two, you get a pretty good feel for how real or fake a person is in that amount of time. now of course someone could BS me for an hour I suppose, but it is different than a thirty second sound bite like you might see on the news or a couple minutes on a talk show, whether that be Hanity or Stewart. Rosen’s show is just particularly well done.

  94. knarlyknight Says:

    Thanks and I choose to respect your opinion about Rosen’s show because you’ve (sometimes) demonstrated a keen intelligent skepticism and I myself have not yet experienced a Rosen show.

    (“sometimes” – just couldn’t quite bring myself to say it! ) Cheers, Happy St . Pats.

  95. shcb Says:

    Happy Patty’s day to you as well. this brings up a question, I find myself agreeing with Rosen a little too much sometimes, to the point I am, not embarrassed, but concerned that I am a bit of a puppet. I do at those times reconsider my priorities and core beliefs to make sure I’m not being manipulated too much, and I do check a few facts and figures and see what the other side is saying and checking their stats as well. By an overwhelming margin I find my side more believable than the other side not always but most of the time.

    Now the question, how does one know he is being fed the diet of a mushroom? And also, facts and figures can be checked, the gdp of a country is what it is for instance but how that information is used is a different story. A person’s and a countries morals, beliefs and priorities come into play.

    Do we pick our mentors because they believe what we believe, or do we believe what we believe because of what our mentors have told us? Or a combination of the two?

    I really don’t know where I’m going with this, but I have to go see my daughter’s coach now so maybe it will make more sense tonight.

  96. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb – those are great questions, but a word of advice: don’t ask your daughter’s coach about all that, he/she will just get confused and think you are a bigger nut than you seemed at first.

    The questions you ask have haunted people ever since the scope of human knowledge increased beyond what a learned person could comprehend (somewhere in the 1600’s or 1700’s.) The historical and common solution, which I find much lacking, is to rely on established experts. Ultimately I think the answer lies in an openness for new ideas, dropping of dogmas, and developing an intuitive awareness of a higher order of honesty with the inner faith that your spirit’s pure white light can discern the truth when free of all other distractions. A combination of Eastern mysticism with scientific logic and modern realism. Or in RWNJ language, ya go with your gut. I’ll try again with a better answer Rick, it is something I want to think about more too.

  97. knarlyknight Says:

    One more item on global warming (GW). There is an entertaining youtube video by a science teacher who answers the question: what should we do about GW? He constructed a matrix with 4 boxes. The first row is “GW theory is wrong” second row is “GW theory matches worst predictions”. First column is “People take strong decisive action to prevent GW” Second column is “People do little or nothing except continue to study and make comfortable adjustments (i.e. the shcb approach) “

    That simple analysis gives you 4 scenarios that can then be assessed and ranked:


    A = “GW theory is wrong” & “People take strong decisive action to prevent GW”

    For A, the implications are that people experience strong negative economic adjustments (probably) and gain many environmental benefits.

    B = “GW theory is wrong” & “People continue to study, comfortable adjustments”
    For B, the implications are that people do not suffer strong negative economic adjustments (probably) and get few environmental benefits.

    C = “GW theory matches worst predictions” & “People take strong decisive action to prevent GW”
    For C, the implications are mitigated environmental and economic suffering with people living in a manner that is sustainable in a normalizing global environment.

    D = “GW theory matches worst predictions” & “People continue to study, comfortable adjustments”
    For D, you get economic and environmental devastation on a global scale far worse than human history has ever recorded, continuing for ages.

    Now that we have that, let’s see where we each sit.

    NL suggests strong action on GW is warranted, so if we take his advice we get either A or C.

    NL policy Best case:
    A: people experience strong negative economic adjustments (probably) and gain many environmental benefits.

    NL policy Worst case:
    C: mitigated global warming – some environmental and economic suffering with people living in a manner that is sustainable over time in a normalizing global environment.

    Shcb suggests more study and comfortable adjustments. So if we take his advice we get either B or D.

    Shcb policy Best case:
    B: people do not suffer strong negative economic adjustments (probably) and get few environmental benefits.

    Shcb policy Worst case:
    D: economic and environmental devastation on a global scale far worse than human history has ever recorded and that continues for ages.

    I am a global warming sceptic but I agree with the NL policy to take action on global warming. I can live with NL’s policy option outcomes whether global warming is fact or fiction.

    I am not willing to accept the risks inherent in the shcb policy; it is too much like invading Iraq (benefits a few at the pain of millions).

  98. shcb Says:

    Fair enough, let me deposit my view which of course isn’t covered in your example. The people that make sense to me (gut feel) are saying that global warming is mostly (96% to 99.999%) natural due mostly to solar activity, which is why other planets experience it too, the pattern develops by a combination of the earth’s orbit, its wobble on it’s axis, and sun spots and other solar activity. In the 1800’s to the early to mid 1900’s we were in the “little ice age” a cooling period, there was plenty of fossil fuel burning then. Remember soot covered London in 101 Dalmatians? There is scientific proof for you, I don’t care who you are. Anyway, I would prefer to spend our limited resources to clean up stuff that is a) real and b) really matters. Now if global warming is real, let’s fix it, if we can, if it is the sun and the earth there isn’t much we can do about it and it will start to cool eventually. I just hate to find out 50 years from now that this was just a big hoax by a bunch of socialists to redistribute wealth but you can’t drink the water, or we’re still using oil because we didn’t use our money to find something else.

    Getting off oil for transportation (we will always need it for plastic production and such) is a good thing in so many ways but mark my words when we start using that sub atomic particle in sea water I was talking about earlier, the one that will produce as much power from a gallon of water as a pound of uranium with clear water as a byproduct, someone will be worried we will someday run out of sea water.

  99. enkidu Says:

    shcb – you are thinking about helium3
    They are hoping to find H3 in useable quantities on the moon.
    Or mine it from the gas giants. Not in our lifetimes, of course.

    w has done a great job of getting us off foreign oil!
    Thank goodness for Texaraq, or oil would be $110 a barrel or something.

    I bet shcb was a non-believer in the ozone hole/CFC ‘debate’

    I am not a big climate change believer one way or the other, but I consistently come down on the side of the believers, as their camp is interested in the same things I am. Control pollution, less oil/coal, smarter resource use, innovation.

    One item Gore leaves out of his dramatic “here is CO2 over the last X thousand years”. You gasp when our ppm spikes as we industrialize the planet… only problem is the temperature spike supposedly lags the CO2 spike by about 800 years. The worry is that we may reach some tipping point beyond which real catastrophe is unavoidable.

  100. shcb Says:

    Maybe I didn’t tell you guys about this, I did some work for a company in Boulder that does high vacuum work, where they can suck and count the molecules through an inch of stainless. So the project I was building parts for was for a super collider in the Chicago area I believe. This was a small unit a mile or so in circumference, it was to be used to study a subatomic particle that was indigenous to sea water. They knew enough about this particle to know it had the potential to produce the same amount of power from a gallon of water as a pound of uranium in a traditional plant. The rub was they needed super conductivity and cold fusion to make it work, so they planned to study this little critter for the next 30 years or so that when those technologies came on line they would know all there is to know about this particle. That was 10 or 15 years ago, I haven’t kept up with it since, maybe it was a flop. But I did physically see the tubes for the unit and build some peripheral parts for it.

    I’m certainly not against research and making changes to technology as required or as they become available. If the global warming people will just take out the political stuff, I would listen a lot harder. For instance when this all started, China was exempt from Kyoto, and yet they are producing a big portion of the pollution. Red flags go up whenever I hear things like that, protect the communists and soak the capitalists. If this is a real problem no one should be excluded. Then they started the carbon credits where I can send money to a Caribbean island so I can continue to drive my truck guilt free, I got news for you’al if I’m giving money to a Caribbean island it will be in exchange for a drink with a little umbrella in it.

  101. enkidu Says:

    here here for drinks w umbrellas

    or maybe you were thinking about Deuterium?

  102. NorthernLite Says:

    Just so eeryone is clear, the green movemment is much more than just global warming and Kyoto. That is just one aspect of it.

    I also find it interesting that many on the right are siding with Communist China. “If they’re not in, we’re not in.”

    Real countries and real leaders lead by example. They don’t use a laggard country to get out of taking tough action.

  103. shcb Says:

    Inky, that sounds good to me, I’m a mechanical guy, if a 5/16 bolt won’t hold it together I probably don’t understand it, I kind of glazed over when the they started talking ‘bout them perpendicular tables and them squiggly lines with numbers and letters on both sides. Maybe a rum drink will straighten ‘em out. I’m about to find out.


    I know the green movement has some good things, I just want whatever we’re doing to make sense, Kyoto is mostly a crock and unfortunately the good part of the green movement gets too lumped into it, kind of like no matter what I say I will get blamed the next time Fallwell says something stupid, goes with the territory. But I have a real question for you. I have a goofy idea that in some cases we may be better off putting stuff in landfills than recycling. I’m guessing that some things take more energy to recycle than to make new. I think it may be better to leave them in the ground for the next 30 years until Inky’s little particle is making bunches of electricity cleanly and then mine the stuff and recycle it then? I said it was goofy, be gentle.

  104. ymatt Says:

    I’ll jump in here because this is a subject where the level of discourse (in the media etc, not here) is really terrible. I hate this whole idea of “the green movement”. I find the term to be completely meaningless, but it keeps getting used both by critics and by supporters leading to an agglomeration of causes, with the various strong and weak policy proposals for each that shcb mentions. The only shared link between them is that they have to do with the use of shared resources, which is one of the areas where the free market does not optimize the result (tending to simply use the resources as quickly as possible until they are exhausted).

    To have any meaningful discussion, I think we need to break things out into useful topics:

    1) Global Warming (aka CO2 emissions). I still consider this a slam dunk from all that I’ve been able to read about consensus of the scientific community. This is also the main focus of Kyoto. My opinion on that is that, sure, it’s not fair that China doesn’t want to join, but if we believe there is a serious and significant risk here, the rest of us conscientious first-world nations can’t be excused from doing what we can. You don’t see us dumping our minimum wage, eliminating the FDA, or killing the clean water act just to be on a level playing field with China. We should take leadership with Kyoto, then find ways to invest in Chinese power generation infrastructure to incentivize cleaner power (and make money doing it).

    2) Recycling. In many cases, I think the argument here is much more muddy, with some recycling processes taking more energy than manufacturing new materials would take. That said, there is a practical civic argument to be made for reducing how much you put in landfills, and also I believe that often incentivizing new processes in the end leads to higher efficiency (which is more profitable).

    This is getting kinda off in weird-idea land, but I’m in favor of a standards body like UL (which has voluntary safety standards) that publishes voluntary product longevity and quality standards. Products bearing the mark of this standard would be designed to function for, say, 5, 10, or 20 years. I think given the option, many people would pay more for things that last longer if they had confidence in that investment.

    3) Wildlife/nature Protection. I think this one has a practical aspect, and an aspect of priorities. If we maximize our use of many natural resources (forests, tundra oil fields, oceans), two things may happen. Practically speaking, some resources can be so quickly used that they cannot recover (or have other dire consequences), with short term gains for companies costing us more in the long-run through lost opportunity. These would include overfishing of oceans, clearcutting of some forests, or strip mining that leaves behind toxic chemicals.

    Then there are the cases of priority, where we as human beings need to decide if economic advantage or preservation is more important. Do we care if some species of animal go extinct? Do we care if fragile habitats are destroyed? These are often irreversible decisions that should be approached with caution, although I’m suspicious of absolute arguments in either direction.

    4) Pollution. Setting aside global warming emissions, there is the simple issue of making our habitat (air, water, etc) unpleasant or dangerous. Again, this often simply comes down to priorities and I think absolutes are dangerous, but clearly the free market will simply pollute as much as they can avoid public outrage, which is quite a lot, so there’s a role for government to diligently control pollution.

  105. shcb Says:

    Matt, I pretty much agree with you except Kyoto and global warming, but I’ve stated my case on those issues. Just to be clear, I, and responsible conservatives, don’t mean that just because China does it we can or should. We just mean that it points to a political objective more than an environmental issue (in this case) when the left (in this case) excludes places like China. It reeks of affirmative action, which we oppose.

    I know you guys are going to jump on that, but to save you the effort, we just don’t think it is fair. If there is an injustice take care of it, but don’t hold the descendants three generations removed accountable.

    I kind of like your idea of the UL type organization, not sure how that would work, but it’s an interesting concept. In the end reuse beats recycling every time. Long lived products are in that same vein.

  106. ymatt Says:

    I don’t think I’m following your explanation of why China isn’t part of Kyoto. It sounds like you think that “the left” is somehow actively excluding China, which is a new one on me. My understanding is that we all want China to join, but it just isn’t happening. I’ve been known in the past to explain this as part of China going through its own industrial revolution, but that isn’t meant as a justification.

    The rest of us first-world nations would be in a much better position to exert pressure on the Chinese to make efforts to clean things up if all of us at least signed on. It feels very much like this administration’s refusal to talk with governments it disagrees with: pushing others away by always requiring them to make the first move rather than trying to be constructive (yes, even if that means some giving, if it’s the right thing to do).

  107. shcb Says:

    About China, it is probably a little of both, China said no way and the left didn’t really didn’t push the matter like it was with the US and Europe. That was some time ago, during the Clinton administration. This was one of the few things conservatives got behind Clinton on was his refusal to go along with Kyoto. When you looked at it with a critical eye it went further than everyone agreeing to clean up their act, there were also transfer payments from mostly the US to third world countries, including China, I think, don’t quote me on the transfer to China part. Ostensibly it was to clean up the mess we had made, but not tangible messes like oil spills, it was things like co2 emissions. When people started looking at actual emissions some of these countries were producing as much as we were. Of course that is where the lies, damned lies and statistics (Mark Twain) came into play, the left would use per capita numbers, the right would subtract the number of trees, divided by the square miles of the countries times the number of women breast feeding, it got real silly real quick. Bottom line is the science got pushed to the side for everyone wanting their part of my money. My contention is that that was what the left wanted from the start, and now those weighted studies have become scientific reality in many peoples minds.

  108. NorthernLite Says:

    shcb, it’s obvious you received most of your information regarding the Kyoto accord from anti-Kyoto sources. Do yourself a favour and really research the principles behind the treaty. No one is going to just send money to China (or other developing countries) to do as they please with.

    I guess the world expected more cooperation and leadership out of the US than they would get from China.


    Happy 5th Anniversary! (for the war the would last “days, weeks, I doubt six months” and cost no more than “$60 billion”)

  109. knarlyknight Says:

    Exactly, the Kyoto accord was goundbreaking. I am deeply dissapointed not only in the USA but almost as much in the Harper Government’s sleazy treatment of the agreement.

    shcb, it seems NL observations are correct, your criticisms of Kyoto reak of pessimistic, anti-Kyoto jingoism rather than informed independent thought. Also, did you consider the implications if “your side” is wrong about Global Warming (just like your side was utterly wrong about how the Iraq war would unfold?)

    You (and YMATT) might want to read my March 17 ABCD scenario post, and maybe use that as a starting point for more comprehensive thought, as it still appears that you are thinking in a simplistic either/or paradigm.

    My sympathies on your 5th year anniversary (in the war that a prominant Republican said would pay for itself.) Since the USA cannot even deal with a muilti-cultural situation like Iraq, no wonder they do not have a clue about more complex issues like Global Warming. It was Ironic to hear Cheney in Baghdad say things were going so fantastic there the same day as 50 people were killed by a suicide bomber in another city and Baghdad experienced three or four other bombings with multiple fatalities in each. Makes one wonder what Cheney meant, was it going fantastic compared to the projected results of his upcoming plans for Iran?

  110. shcb Says:

    NL, you’re right, I haven’t really studied Kyoto much, not that high on my priority list, but I will. I suspect that it will come done to your experts verses my experts, he said she said. It also comes down to philosophical priorities, there is always a balance between cost and benefit and you are probably always going to be less concerned about the cost of protecting the environment than I, just as I am less concerned with the cost of the war than you are.

    I watched about a half hour interview with Patraus (sp?) last night, quite a guy, he didn’t sugar coat anything , but it really sounds hopeful, not only with Iraq, but with the neighboring countries. I think we finally found a guy that not only understands how to kill people but also understands the intricacies of the people and cultures of that area. It took 3 years for Lincoln to find his general as well.

  111. shcb Says:

    come done? damn spell check, …come down to your experts…

  112. enkidu Says:

    I threw up in my mouth a little bit when you compared dumbya to Lincoln

  113. shcb Says:

    I think if you look at the opposition to the wars and the timelines and poll numbers they are pretty close to the same. The biggest difference of course is the number of dead, battles in the civil war with 3 or 4 thousand dead are hardly worth mentioning.

  114. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb, did Petraeus (sp?) say we need about another six months?

    In response to whatever Petraeus said, I give you this:

    Today, five years exactly from that day, “Shock & Awe” has failed. We are the most powerful nation on the earth, militarily, and despite the fact that this ‘war’ will cost us three [Three? I thought it was one, maybe typo – kk.] trillion dollars so far: we have not prevailed. Bush spoke to the nation today from deep inside the War Department, and proclaimed our success: But when America wins a war, we hold ticker-tape parades down Fifth Avenue in New York City-we do not need to have ‘victory’ explained to us by a third rate cheerleader who does not know one end of a weapon from the other. The Decider knows nothing about the need for winning anything beyond our bombs our torture, our own infliction of terror upon the innocent that we dispense so freely, with every bullet that is fired in fear.

    If the nation knew anything about what we’ve really been doing for these last five years: Then the testimony from the Winter Soldier’s Conference that was given in Silver Spring Maryland this last week, would have been front page news across the nation. As it is the conference was held under a news blackout with the exception of Pacifica Radio. (2)

    I’ve listened to Winter Soldiers now for a very long time, not just on this 5th anniversary of the War. Much of what has been done in our names is unspeakably vile, inhuman, and virtually unforgiveable by any human or spiritual standard, which is why so many chose suicide, while others try to live with their individual horrors. What has been attempted in Iraq and Afghanistan by the owners, for whom the Decider speaks, cannot continue in the world because for any society to ever succeed it has to be built on the trust of those individuals living within that society. ‘Trust’ cannot be bought or sold, nor can it be inflicted from the barrels of our weapons – it must be earned!

    “Freedom” can never come from totalitarian occupations: we have proven that in every pre-emptive attack we’ve undertaken over the last sixty years. Freedom can only arise from the determination of free people to throw off their chains, whether those chains are physical, emotional, or psychological. ‘We’ are not serving those who seek freedom in Iraq or Afghanistan: Quite the contrary our “troops” over there have been used as the 21st Century version of what was initiated by the SS under the Nazi’s. At home, our civil police forces are being militarized as well, in order to bring to us that which our troops are currently bringing to the people of Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Beyond the War itself, the proof of what is outlined above is everywhere.

    Victory-in-Iraq would mean that the people there, after five years time, would have electricity, drinkable water, and some semblance of a civil society. This has not happened. Schools and hospitals would have been rebuilt, and human life for Iraqi’s would be improving. That is not happening either. If Victory had been accomplished then American Gulags, like Abu Ghraib would have been turned over to Iraqi control, along with control over all of Iraq’s Oil and their other resources: but since this was the point of the whole exercise-obviously that has not and will not happen!

    What about the rest of the Decider’s lies this morning? He claimed again that we are safer now than before: That Saddam had – had to be removed. However he forgot to mention that Saddam, through the CIA, was our own creation. We supplied the gas that Saddam used to “gas his own people,” and after Saddam did that he remained in the very good graces of the USA. And those Weapons of Mass Destruction, we “knew” he had: That was because we had the invoices from 42 different suppliers that provided those weapons to him, and that is why so many “believed” that Saddam still had them. Of course everyone, basically without any military knowledge or experience, has always overlooked the twelve years between the first and second attack upon Iraq, and the bombings that we unofficially carried out 24-7 throughout those twelve long years of sanctions and no-fly zones when the WMD’s disappeared.

    Now I ask you, did Petraeus “no sugar coating” speak of the huge emerging issues of the Winter Soldier’s conference and their concern about what these soldiers know the military has and continues to inflict upon an innocent population?

  115. shcb Says:


    “Progressive reduction or phasing out of market imperfections” how exactly do you do this, I don’t think anyone at the UN has ever read Adam Smith or Joseph Schumpeter. You can’t perfect the markets and if you did by whose vision is perfect? Then they (the UN) want us to eliminate all tax incentives that pertain to the emission of green house gasses, but of course they get to define what is and isn’t in that category, it is a constantly changing list and details of the list and the plan can and will change every 6 months to a year. A “panel of experts” will make these decisions. A UN appointed panel with the power to regulate the world’s economies, with the exception of China, no it’s not on the list (Annex B), and the former Soviet Union countries are “Countries that are undergoing the process of transition to a market economy.” I presume these are the countries we will sending our money to (article 11 paragraph 2b). It looks to me like this group would also have the power to regulate and/or ignore patents like Canada does with pharmaceuticals (article 10, paragraph 1 c) you have to read between the lines for this one, “the creation of an enabling environment for the private sector, to promote and enhance the transfer of, and access to, environmentally sound technologies”

    I also liked article 10 section b (i) the UN would be able to tell us in a roundabout way how to regulate the industries mentioned, but the cute phrase is the “among other things” what is in those “other things” now this section is about reporting, but what if the “commission” doesn’t like the report? I assume there is a punishment, but I didn’t see one addressed, makes it easier to place whatever dollar amount you wish on the infraction I guess. Article 10, section d, maybe you should do this before you regulate the world’s economies.

    One good thing about this exercise is it tells me my side (anti Kyoto) was right and didn’t “lie” to me, this is terrible policy, so much of this is undefined, they will develop procedures, reporting methods and I guess a fine structure after all the countries sign it. Who in their right mind would do that. And what are we trying to do, control emissions to pre 1990 levels at minus 5%, how did they arrive at that number? Remember, this is all based on the report of the IPCC, a group that according to Wiki doesn’t do research, I guess they are kind a clearing house that has a stated mission to “promote” the UN’s position on climate issues. I need to publicly give credit to Clinton for not signing the piece of garbage. A big atta-boy Billy,

  116. shcb Says:

    Knarly, who wrote that Michelle Obama? just kidding big guy, she is even a little more proud of this country than that nonsence.

  117. enkidu Says:

    on the whole (laughably erroneous) rwnj meme of ‘bush is just like Lincoln!’

    has a pretty fair accounting (note that this was written in 2002
    after 9/11 suddenly made dumbya the bestust pretzlenitwit, evar)

  118. shcb Says:


    I was really referring to the similarity of the situation they find themselves in than that they were similar people, Lincoln is definitely in the top 3 or 4 greatest presidents, I would put Bush at maybe 12 or 14. I know you would put him dead last but you have an irrational hatred for the man, ranking him dead last is a silly as ranking him first. I also wanted to make the point that the situation we find ourselves in now isn’t that different than any other war. But thanks for posting that piece, they are always fun. They show that two different people are similar in some ways and different in others. Not much of a point but fun to read.

  119. enkidu Says:

    ok, worst president of the last hundred years then
    I don’t hate the man, I just hate the lousy job he is doing as president.

    there were 10 similarities and 20 dissimilarities in that link
    and by far the ways they are not alike are much more profound and germane as to their capabilities as leaders. For instance, Lincoln is a Republican, bush is (supposedly) a Republican (I am sure Lincoln would give bush a thorough thrashing for the damage he has done to America). Lincoln was a voracious reader and intellect, quick of wit, and a shrewd judge of character. dumbya is a poor reader, can’t talk his way out of a paper bag, and is a vindictive, petty tyrant, dry drunk and born again douchebag.

    I see the two men as near polar opposites.
    Lincoln: brilliantly competent, liberal, humble, smart and driven
    dumbya: an incompetent tongue tied stumble bum, incurious, dogmatic, drunk

    If the Republican brand were dog food, they’d take it off the shelves.

  120. shcb Says:

    Carter wins the last hundred years hands down

  121. enkidu Says:

    Carter as best president?
    I would have thought you’d say Ronnie Raygun

    Carter did get that Egyptian/Israeli Peace Accord signed at Camp David
    he also laid the groundwork for the similar Jordanian/Israeli peace agreement
    his life after being President has also been exemplary
    I’d put him in the top 20

  122. shcb Says:

    Carter worst, Reagan best, Carter has been a good humanitarian after being president but he has stuck his nose into too many things where it didn’t belong to be a good past president from a presidential standpoint.

  123. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb, you forgot to add: “or at least that’s what they told me on Fox news.”

  124. shcb Says:

    well, that is where I got my information on Kyoto and it seems to be right, why should I doubt this?

  125. knarlyknight Says:

    Enkidu gives some decent examples, shcb gives an assertion and no relevant examples, just irrelevant examples of what Carter did after being president. If Carter stuck his nose into too many things (trying to make the world better?) after he was president, then HW Bush is 100 times more guilty through his attempted (or actual) manipulations of his son (directly and through James Baker etc.) and continued strong influence in Arab states etc. through Carlyle Group.

    Carter over Reagan any day, the world has not recovered from Reagan’s militaristic garbage, from Latin American atrocities under CIA in El Salvador to a “Star Wars” boondoggle. The captives in Iran were held for months longer than they would have been if his handlers hadn’t secretly negotiated for their release ONLY once he was sworn in so that he could take the credit for that instead of Carter – i.e. Partisianship at its worsst.

    Had the Soviet Union not collapsed he would have

  126. shcb Says:

    Carter let the Arabs hold our people way too long, preferring to talk than kick some ass, he also had one of the worst economies ever, and it was because of things he did more than most presidents. Inflation was through the roof, ridiculous interest rates , high oil prices, you name it. He was the beginning of the war we are fighting now, if he had shown more grit then we wouldn’t be doing what we are doing now, same with every president since but Carter was unlucky enough to be the first. That’s not to say Carter didn’t have some successes, but the balance sheet tips him to the negative. Of course that is using my set of priorities, your priorities put a high value on a president building homes for the poor, mine doesn’t.

    There is an unspoken rule among former presidents that they don’t get in the way of the present president. For good reason. You can only have one boss, when dealing with foreign powers they need a clear and concise view of what we want and what we are going to do. When you have a past president globetrotting to trouble spots, meeting with foreign leaders, saying we are prepared to do this or that and the State Department is saying “no we’re not!” it makes us look foolish and disorganized. If a past president wants to call the current or vice versa in a private conversation and bounce ideas off each other that is ok whether it’s his son or not. Then if a current president wants to appoint him to a commission or such, well he does so at his own peril.

    The fall of Russia probably would have happened with or without Reagan, but Reagan certainly accelerated it. A socialistic society, and communism is just socialism on steroids rarely lasts more than 50 years or so, they are so inefficient and contrary to human nature they have to continually expand imperialistically gobbling up economies, sucking the life out of them before moving on, at some point they reach enough resistance they collapse from within. Sweden being the exception. Russia had reached that point, SDI and Reykjavik solidified our position that we would not budge one more inch, not give up one more acre of land to the Soviets. Panama and Grenada drove that point home as well. We didn’t talk, we acted, and Russia fell. WE WON. I know it pisses you lefties off when we win, especially after you had won in Viet Nam. Now you’re hoping to win in Iraq. But we have turned the corner there too (and you are not only denying it, you are upset we may win). With persistence and hard work and enough resources you will usually win, America under conservative leadership has all three, under liberals all we have is resources.

    The Patriot missile system, the one that shot down so many scuds over Israel in the first Gulf war is part of SDI, worked pretty well, and only a few years after Reagan left office, as is the missile that shot down the satellite a couple weeks ago.

    I smile to myself every time you guys make a comment that I am being falsely led by my masters, that I get my information from unreliable sources etc. and you are so pitifully uninformed or misinformed. Conspicuously absent is any reply to my Kyoto piece. I’m guessing I’m the only one here who has bothered to read it. (They are scrambling to get a copy as we speak)

  127. knarlyknight Says:

    i had to run before finishing that yesterday, but the idea got through. To sum, Carter was an intelligent, thoughtful leader in very difficult times (oil shocks, turmoil in mideast – including the fall of the shah of iran) who did well on lowering the temperature of explosive and difficult economic situations. Reagan was an idealogue mainly influenced by his handlers and raised the temperature of world strife.

    The other thing missing was a compliment to shcb for doing some decent first hand analysis of Kyoto (although flawed in it’s understanding of how the details of Kyoto are to be worked out) However, no compliment is warranted as we find out he got his info from Fox news. That also explains the flaws.

    I don’t have time nor incination over the next few das to elaborate, perhaps NL or someone else can address the flawed criticisms of Kyoto Accord.

  128. shcb Says:

    You got that wrong, but it is my fault, I didn’t explain myself well. My March 20 entry was from reading the Kyoto document itself. The Fox news reference was to my understanding of the Kyoto protocol before reading it on March 19. After reading it I could not see any difference from as I had heard it described on Fox, Rosen, Rush etc. which was really my mission since NL had said that my understanding of the document was wrong because I had gotten all my information from those opposed to the treaty, which was admittedly true. This was just one of those cases where, as I have said in the past, I like to check periodically to see if my side is BSing me. It would appear in this case they aren’t. So the next logical question is, if your side said my side was lying about Kyoto, did you fact check your side? Of course one of the ways your side gets away with what it gets away with is to simply not give specifics. “The right is lying about Kyoto” when all the right is doing is giving it’s opinions. You may be perfectly willing to give up control of your economy to the United Nations (this was Clinton’s reason for not signing it BTW), if you are Kyoto is tailor made for you. I don’t see that it does much to help the environment and it does a lot to hurt economies, which in the end will hurt the environment.

    I understand how the details would be worked out; I’m just curious why anyone would sign something before they were. Would you buy a new car with the understanding that the dealer would give you a price and interest rate a few weeks after you bought the car?

  129. enkidu Says:

    nice rant, but many of your statements are at odds with reality
    a few facts for you to consider:

    Iranians are Persian, not Arab (big difference, but why let facts and thousands of years of history get in the way?)

    Carter ordered a military rescue mission that crashed and burned in the desert (that doesn’t sound like he was only interested in talk)

    Carter only became active in Habitat for Humanity after he was president (try google before you spout more nonsense – his association with HfH began in 1984)

    I am pretty sure I heard some criticism coming from GHWB when Billy Bob was in the WH, but why let pesky facts get in the way of good ol belief?

    I really don’t have the time to debunk your fauxNEWZ nonsense (with a sprinkling of Macho Mike Rosen rwnj talk radio thrown in for ‘spice’). If knarly or NL want to take the time to go through your Kyoto assertions I bet they find plenty of ‘a-factual’ rwnj blather in there as well. I have a business to run in a bad recession.

    Your whole “you lefties” bullshit is just so un-American it make me ill. You perpetuate the same partisan stupidity and waste that has been strangling America for decades.

    Go Obama for real change. Vote McCain for a hundred years of bush. Vote Hillary if you want the divisions in our country deepened and made yet more poisonous.

  130. shcb Says:

    Most of what you say is a misinterpretation of what I said, and is pretty trivial. I probably didn’t make myself clear, so I’ll just let it stand except for two items; GHWB and the failed rescue mission. I don’t think GHWB criticized Clinton until Clinton left office (which still isn’t right but at least it doesn’t hurt ongoing negotiations). And if he did it was pretty minor. If a reporter asks a specific question to a former president it is in good taste to say something like “I don’t agree with his policy” or something like that but not ok to get into specifics at length. He doesn’t have to say “no comment”. Carter on the other hand has written full op ed pieces criticizing GWB. I seem to recall GHWB was a little more vocal during the election cycle but that is a little of an odd case since his son is running against the current administration’s VP. Kind of a gray area.

    The rescue mission: it was ill-conceived to try and micro manage a mission like this from the oval office, and that was totally Carter’s doing. When GHWB ordered the attack of Iraq in the first gulf war he reportedly gave the order and went to bed, leaving the Generals and Admirals to do what they do best. After it’s failure all future actions of force were taken off the table. That is the inaction I was referring to. In any operation you will have successes and failures, wins and losses, a strong leader persists and works his way through those setbacks.

    So my “you lefties” is un American? After you go through purposely misspelled rant after rant? At least when I lump “you lefties” together it is somewhat clinical, you are who you are just as I am who I am. You cheerlead for things that ultimately help our enemies, that to some degree helps them and hurts us, if you don’t like being criticized for doing it, stop doing it. If you think America is wrong just say so and be proud of being on the side of our enemies, hell they may win, then you guys will have two victories under your belt.

    I don’t blame you for not wanting to take me on with Kyoto, reading that type of document is tedious and boring.

  131. shcb Says:

    Well NL, the other two guys have begged off Kyoto, they are either too busy, lazy, or afraid to read a twenty odd page document and comment on it. Afraid they may find out they have been lied to by their masters as they say I have been is my guess. That has the possibility of upsetting a big apple cart. Let’s close our eyes and maybe it will go away like terrorism would if we just left the Arabs alone. So the buck has been passed to you. Which is probably appropriate since this is kind of your crusade anyway.

  132. enkidu Says:

    as I said I am just completely out of time to get nitty gritty w the Kyoto thing – I don’t recall being a big pro-Kyoto blabberer, nor a particularly anti-Kyoto snarkmeister. I would like China on board, but we can’t wait for them to get their act together. I just pointed out a few rwnj fact free talking points (Iranians are not Arabs, Shiites are not Sunnis, please get these facts thru your skull if you want to play cowboy in the middle east)

    I have three brothers, we are 2 Rs and two Is (including myself in the Independent label). The born again brother missed the .com boom (how I miss the money I made in those days, not paper money/stock run up, but real greenbacks, checks with more zeros… I digress) but happens to have switched jobs into a green energy company. He is as R as they come but he doesn’t always stick to dogma (party or religious). We get along great and have been working on some things together of late. He and I see a big wave coming of reengineering all industry to be clean, green, efficient and lean. Saving energy is energy you don’t have to buy, recovering wasted heat energy is one less calorie we don’t have to buy from the Saudis (or our Canadian friends, the nation, not the colour). He thinks Al Gore has the science basically right and gets sheepish when I ask him “who would have done better with our nation since 9/11, Gore or Bush?”

    We can innovate our way out of what could be a pretty ugly future (it isn’t all about carbon, GHGs are and other pollutants are a bigger slice of the problem), but only if we have the courage (the hope, the audacity) to lead the world again. Not in bombs (as any fool can destroy), but in brains. Something our current ‘leader’ clearly lacks.

    Sometimes I think there is hope for you shcb, but then you pull that lefty hates America crap out of your ying yang and start in w the rwnj talking points. You are much funnier than TV of lefty, but you seem to be just as partisan. Just as stubborn. Just as wrong.

  133. shcb Says:


    It’s Easter weekend and we are all busy with family, as it should be, but if you get a chance reread some of my posts on this thread, what you are proposing is just what I have been saying except for the doomsday aspect. I want private industry to come up with solutions to these problems as much as possible. I know government needs to be involvesd sometimes but you and your brother are more motivated than a bureaucrat ever would be. You are absolutely right, using less energy and using it cleaner is the right thing to do on so many levels, as is finding different alternatives for power. Some of these technologies are locally specific and make government intrusion detrimental. One of the guys I work with was telling me about an insurance company in probably Minneapolis that pored a concrete slab that they had fitted with miles of pipe, in the winter they piled snow on the slab until it was a mountain, they covered the snow with sod in the spring and then used the cold concrete/water in the pipes to cool the building in the summer. Great idea if you have a lot of snow, probably won’t work in Palm Springs. Having a worldwide governing agency regulate this is just silly. We always fix today’s problems with tomorrow’s technology.

  134. knarlyknight Says:


    i’ll dabble into the kyoto thing a little, but first let’s all step back for a second.

    before fact checking what you read i’ll give my expectations of what i’ll uncover, as it is always the same with Fox. the facts will be basically right but the facts will be a small part of the whole story (thus the greater context is lost) and those “facts” will be viewed from such an extreme confrontational angle (a raw dog-eat-dog & fear based view of human interaction.) Once that angle is established, it is difficult for anyone comfortable of familiar with Fox views on things to see the other aspects, because that other viewpoint will seem non-vigilant once the Fox viewpoint is adopted.

    The following comparison is crude and way out of line but maybe there is enough truth in it somewhere to convey a little of what I understand about this debate with you. It’s like a standoff where a junky is holding a gun to a hostage’s head while a cop is asking very nicely for him to put down the gun while six other cops have rifles at their shoulders ready to shoot.

    From the junky’s perspective, he puts the gun down and there is nothing between him and those 6 rifles pointed between his eyes: in his mind that means death. The freak might suspect that from the cops perspective they are dealing with a paranoid freak who never should have been allowed to get a weapon in the first place and they might not want the paperwork involved in dealing with a dead freak if they were to shoot him, they might be far happier if he just cooperated with the system and got some drug and psychiatric counselling.

    Now if the freak could just take a different perspective long enough to realize that things would turn out better if he cooperated, that would be good. But what would truly be better is if he got lucid enough to realize that he wasn’t surrounded by cops with rifles at all, just some of his buddies with hockey sticks who are pleading with him to pleeeazze put the refereee down and next time don’t take so much acid before the game.

    To tie this back to Kyoto. You are speaking about this thing from the perspective of someone who thinks everyione is out to get them, rather than from the perspective of someone who has joined with others to solve a mutual problem. Maybe it’s your fear based litigious militaristic culture, maybe its because competitition and survival of the fittest is all you Americans know, or maybe it is just because that’s the persective that Fox news has drummed into their viewers.
    So for starters, lets look at the title. It is called “The Kyoto Accord”

    It is not called “The Kyoto Contract”

    That should be a hint at where this thing came from, and the greater context in which it whould be initially viewed.

    Got to walk dogs now. bye until later.

  135. shcb Says:


    we’re going to Kansas to see my dad, in the land WiFi forgot. I’ll answer when we get back, maybe Sunday, probably Monday. Have a good Easter.

  136. shcb Says:


    I have a few minutes before we leave so I’ll make this short. I think you are over thinking my position. 1) I don’t think global warming is caused by human activity except to a very minute amount. This is based on experts in the field and my common sense. 2) the data used to justify AlGore’s movie and the IPCC report that Kyoto was based on was manipulated to achieve a predetermined conclusion, thousands of scientists have come to the same conclusion after looking at the methodology and results. 3) it is just bad policy. If this isn’t a contract, but just an outline with details to be added later, fine, we’ll make the determination to sign or not when they add the details. And no, I don’t trust the UN. They have done very little to earn my trust.

  137. knarlyknight Says:

    I do not want to continue the best prez debate, but thought you might be interested in these recent comments about spending on star wars vs. other potential threats.,8599,1723735,00.html

  138. shcb Says:


    The problem with your Kyoto analogy is one of the parties is not playing with a full deck, it also includes the obligatory corrupt cop/soldier, don’t understand why they always have to be corrupt, just bigotry against people who wear a uniform I guess. Anyway, with an international treaty such as this both parties are rational and thoughtful. They are also looking out for their own interests but they are rational in their thoughts of how to achieve their goals.

  139. enkidu Says:

    It isn’t just scary ol carbon… gases with far more greenhouse gas (GHG) effect are up since we started the Industrial Revolution. We are altering the chemical mix of the planet’s atmosphere. Cause for concern with China and India having their own very broad Industrial Revolution.

    The amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, for instance, has increased by 35 percent since the dawn of the industrial age, according to the United Nations’ Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, commonly referred to as the IPCC.

    The presence of methane is now 151 percent above pre-industrial levels, but the rate of increase has slowed in recent decades, according to the EPA. Meanwhile, nitrous oxide increased by about 18 percent during the past 200 years.

    Methane is a much stronger GHG than CO.

    I wonder where we would be right now if we had spent that 3 trillion on getting off middle eastern oil instead of glorious george’s grand misadventure?

  140. knarlyknight Says:

    Probably in the midst of a famine due to a wholesale switch to bio-fuels, and Haliburton would be in agri-business.

  141. enkidu Says:

    We already have riots in Mexico because the cost of corn is doubling and redoubling. why? Because big US agribusiness is buying up corn for ethanol production.

    The price of regular old white flour has risen 2x to 3x in recent months.

    Most of the energy that reaches our planet is in the form of solar input. All the biomass that makes up crude oil (millions of years ago… oooops, I forgot, rwnjs think the Earth was made in 6 days by a magical being some 6000 years ago) was formed as a result of solar inputs. If we can harvest even a fraction of this energy, we could stop using oil for anything other than plastics and chemical feedstocks.

    Solar can be cheaper than coal (and much cleaner too). Fusion or zero point energy may still be a long way off (or never). Mining gigatons of water for a few specs of Deuterium isn’t practical. We may find a motherload of He3 on the moon, but that is also not in our lifetimes (if ever).

  142. knarlyknight Says:

    This Saturday, 8 pm:

  143. shcb Says:

    What is it about liberals that they feel the need to exaggerate numbers so? That is a rhetorical question. In a September 30, 2002 letter to the honorable Kent Conrad the GAO estimated the cost of war in Iraq to be 6 to 9 billion per month plus 9 to 13 to get us there and 5 to 7 to get us home. So in 5 years that would be 560 billion, a little over a half trillion. In a Jan 17, 2007 article titled “what 1.2 billion can buy” David Leonhardt says

    The operation itself — the helicopters, the tanks, the fuel needed to run them, the combat pay for enlisted troops, the salaries of reservists and contractors, the rebuilding of Iraq — is costing more than $300 million a day, estimates Scott Wallsten, an economist in Washington.

    so we take 300 million times 5 times 365 and we get …. 547,500,000. that is 547 billion, the bean counters were off 13 billion or a skoach over 2% worst case, and they were high. Somehow Kent gets this number to 1.2 tril by factoring in things like opportunity costs, (you may have to explain that to Inky Knarly). So we have a number that is somewhere between accurate and exaggerated by 100% and Inky trebles it.

    Inky, I missed something. In your March 18 7:44 post you said the temperature spike lags the increase of CO2 by 800 years, so that means this has happened before? And if there is a pattern one would assume it has happened more than once or there would be no pattern, so Chevy was selling Tahoes 16 or 24 hundred years ago? Dr. Lee Gerhard, the scientist from Kansas I’ve been referring to, says the global warming/cooling cycle is 1100 years. He drills really deep holes in earth and looks at the dirt to determine this. It’s kind of his job. Then a caller to Rosen said yesterday that the climate change lags the temperature change by 200 years. Now it all makes sense. You are putting the cart before the horse. It’s not that the CO2 in the atmosphere changes the temperature, it’s the temperature changes CO2! The sun warms things up, more plants grow, they use up the CO2. there is a lag for evolution to do it’s thing and bada bing 200 plus 800 gets us close enough to 1100 for government work.

    As to what we would have done with the half, 1.2 or 3 trillion, Kent wants to spend it on medicine and the poor, Inky wants to spend it on fusion, and Sadam and al Zahari don’t care what we spend it on as long as it isn’t killing them. Oops, too late.

    things weren’t going through for a while I hope this doesn’t come accross twice more

  144. knarlyknight Says:

    yea, darn weeds using up all that CO2 will make us freeze someday. good thinking shcb, it must be time for you to give the back 40 a good coating of roundup before the growing season gets going.

    chevy may not have been selling Tahoes 1600 years ago but there were other huge injections of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, even in recorded history – Krakatoa comes to mind – although the short term effects that made European winters hell for about 2 years was mostly due to the soot. Maybe you could email Dodi Smith if that was any inspiration in the Novel. Also, Pompei may have had similar global impacts.

    Enk, as I see it the main opportunity costs of your military (and Nat’l Guards) being in Iraq is that they have been unavailable for more mundane tasks like helping folks during / after Hurricane Katrina or destroying other civilized countries like venezuela. But the right wing crowd probably feels that their current task of controlling population growth in Iraq is more valuable and better for the global environment in general.

  145. enkidu Says:

    why do right wing partisan nutjobs feel the need to blabber on with great authority about shit they know absolutely nothing about? Oh thats right, Macho Mike Rosen told em it were so! Or perhaps Rush Limpbaugh puked it up on his hate radio show.

    How about if I just let the dumbya mcfucktard administration speak for themselves? (note this is just one example)

    from wiki
    Wolfowitz’s economic arguments pertaining to the Iraq War
    On March 27, 2003, Wolfowitz told a Congressional panel that oil revenue earned by Iraq alone would pay for Iraq’s reconstruction after the Iraq war; he testified: “The oil revenues of that country could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years. Now, there are a lot of claims on that money, but … We are dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction and relatively soon.” By March 2005, two years later, oil revenues were not paying for the occupation and reconstruction of Iraq, Wolfowitz’s estimation of 50 to 100 billion US dollars had not materialized.

    The estimated cost was $50 billion. For 3 years. It is now $500 to $600 billion in direct costs so far. And an estimated $1 trillion to $3 trillion in indirect and future costs. And climbing. After McInsane’s 100 years of Iraq war I expect it might go a tad higher.

    You misquoted me on my penchant for solar power. I am for more solar power, not fusion. Get your facts straight rwnj.

  146. shcb Says:


    Actually, I am planting an acre or so of grass this weekend. And what happened after a couple years of nature puking on herself with the volcanoes? She cleaned the mess up.

    Actually, the Coast Guard was at the Katrina areas almost immediately, and as I recall wasn’t it military choppers that eventually got all those folks out of the Superdome? The very day after the governor allowed them to. When the hurricane hit Houston later that year or the next weren’t there navy vessels offloading relief supplies and equipment behind the storm as it was still raging? Why did Texas get better service you ask. Because the governor ALLOWED the military to help beforehand.

    All that said, it’s not the military’s job to help with disaster relief, rescues etc. If they are available, fine. They are doing what the are supposed to do now in Iraq, kill people and break things.

    By the way I assume you heard that after actually reading the report on those 600,000 pages of documents captured in Iraq there is, low and behold, all kinds of evidence that Sadam had all kinds of ties to terrorism. Including stockpiling arms and explosives in it’s embassies all over the world for various terrorist organizations to use as needed. There were other cool things like an Iraqi being present at the founding meeting of Al Qaeda. It’s really quite interesting. That Texan in the White House might have been right after all.

    I think I remember a dumb farm kid from Kansas saying at the time to wait before you say this was proof Bush lied. That when the report finally comes out there will be all sorts of evidence Sadam was in bed with terrorists he just had no direct operational ties to any individual attack. Or something to that effect. I was right again.

    third try

  147. shcb Says:


    Future and indirect costs? What the hell are indirect costs? That could include everything up to and including the entire federal budget. And future costs? Can I take off all the costs of us not going to war in Iraq? Remember the nuke that didn’t go off in Madison Wisconsin last year and killed 58,000 people. The last estimate was it didn’t cost 2.6 trillion in damages. I mean if you get to include things that may or may not happen in the future, why can’t I include things that may or may not have happened in the past?

    As far as Iraq paying for the war, as soon as Paul said that you guys started screaming “imperialism” at the top of your lungs, so we’re paying for it now. Thanks.

    Solar, fission, whatever. So how are you going to fill in the hills and valleys of inefficiency with solar and wind when the sun don’t shine and the wind she don’t blow? Is there a way to get more than an insignificant amount of power from these utopian sources of energy?

    So why are corn prices so high? Because the ethanol industry is being subsidized to the point they are selling a product that left alone couldn’t pass the market test, and why? So liberals like can say they are “green” and support “clean” energy(and Chevy can sell Tahoes to yuppies so they can tell their friends how green they are). It takes 450 pounds of corn to fill up an SUV, and 1700 gallons of water to make a gallon of ethanol. If all our corn crop were converted to ethanol it would reduce oil usage 10%. So people in Mexico can’t afford tortillas so you guys can feel less guilt. Wonderful.

  148. shcb Says:

    one other thing, you can’t ship ethanol in a pipeline, it has to be trucked from the refinery to gas station.

  149. knarlyknight Says:

    yes, nature has an amazing capacity to clean itself up: that capacity is proportional to its condition prior to the catastrophe. now the web of life is tattered and torn, rainforests (lungs) are a fraction of their original size, blah blah blah… bottom line is that capacity ain’t the same as it used to be: tell me again how big is the dead zones in the oceans off N California, and gulf of mexico blah blah blah…

    Glad you are happy with the Katrina relief effort, i guess you figure they got what they deserved?

    Sorry to disagree shcb, but your military could be put to far better uses than to wither and waste Iraq for five years. First, it would have been nice if they’d dealt with the Taliban and fixed Afghanistan properly instead of letting it fall apart as it is now. Not that I am convinced that Afghanistan can or will ever be anything other than what it has been for the last 1000 years or so.

    An Iraqi was present at the founding meeting of al Quaeda? Oh my god, really? And where was this founding meeting, was it in Langley, Virginia?

    (Hey NL! I just learned that the CIA headquarters in Virginia was RENAMED, you’ll never ever guess what they called it. The CIA HQ is called, sit down and hold on to your chair now: the “George Bush Center for Intelligence.” That explains all their mistakes. LMFAO! )

    WMD’s hidden in embassies around the world, that’s a new one to me. So does the USA plan to invade every Iraqi embassy in the world to ensure there are no more WMD’s still hidden in them, or will you trust the Iraqi’s to hand them over?

    I’ll restrain myself from making any comments about the dumb kid from Kansas, for now.

  150. shcb Says:

    Ipp report hiding of weapons in embassies
    3/30/2008 9:04 AM

    This is the opening section of the Report

    The Iraqi Perspectives Project (IPP) review of captured Iraqi documents uncovered strong evidence that links the regime of Saddam Hussein to regional and global terrorism. Despite their incompatible long-term goals, many terrorist movements and Saddam found a common enemy in the United States. At times these organizations worked together, trading access for capability.

    This is the one sentence Warren P. Strobel, a reporter from the McClatchy News Service used to have you guys jumping up and down that this was PROOF Bush lied and people died.

    An exhaustive review of more than 600,000 Iraqi documents that were captured after the 2003 U.S. invasion has found no evidence that Saddam Hussein’s regime had any operational links with Osama bin Laden’s al Qaida terrorist network

    Oops, the report wasn’t even out yet, he was just going off what someone said the report said. So he couldn’t read that first statement because it hadn’t been published yet. I’m sure a retraction and apology from Strobel and NPR, AP, CBS,NBC, The New York Times, Time, Newsweek, ect. Will be coming soon. They’re probably too busy being amazed that Hillary lied about landing under sniper fire right now, but they will get to it in due course, I’m sure.
    Text from the report

    Two other documents present evidence of logistical preparation
    for terrorist operations in other nations, including those in the West. It is not clear
    from these documents if these weapons were being staged for a specific purpose
    or stockpiled for future contingencies. Extract 2 is a response from the Iraqi Intelligence
    Service (nS) to a letter from Saddam asking for a list of weapons available
    in Iraqi embassies overseas.

    A translation of the document

    Extract 2
    [July 2002]
    Subject: Weapons Information:
    1. We would like to inform you of the following:
    Romania – Missile launcher and missile
    Athens [Greece] – Explosive charges
    Vienna [Austria] – Explosive charges, rifles with silencers, hand grenades,
    and Kalashnikov rifles
    Pakistan – Explosive materials ofTNT
    India – Plastic explosive charges and booby-trapped suitcases
    Thailand – Plastic explosive charges and booby-trapped suitcases
    Prague [Czech] – Missile launcher and missile
    Turkey – Missile launcher, missile, and pistols with silencers
    Sana’a [Yemen] – Missile launcher, missile, plastic explosives and explosive
    Baku [Azerbaijan] – American missile launcher, plastic explosives and
    booby-trapped suitcases
    Beirut [Lebanon] – American missile launcher, plastic explosives and
    booby-trapped suitcases
    Gulf nations – Explosive material outside the embassies
    2. Between the year 2000 and 2002 … explosive materials were transported to
    the embassies outside Iraq for special work, upon the approval of the Director
    of the Iraqi Intelligence Service. The responsibility for these materials is in the
    hands of heads of stations. Some of these materials were transported in the political
    mail carriers [Diplomatic Pouch]. Some of these materials were transported
    by car in booby-trapped briefcases. II

    There is nothing about WMD’s, not sure where you got that idea.

    This is from Lawrence Wright’s book, The Looming Tower.

    Toward the end of 1989, a meeting took place in the Afghan town of Khost at a mujahideen camp. A Sudanese fighter named Jamal al-Fadl was among the participants, and he later testified about the event in a New York courtroom during one of the trials connected with the 1998 bombing of the American embassies in East Africa. According to Fadl, the meeting was attended by ten men–four or five of them Egyptians, including Zawahiri. Fadl told the court that the chairman of the meeting, an Iraqi known as Abu Ayoub, proposed the formation of a new organization that would wage jihad beyond the borders of Afghanistan. There was some dispute about the name, but ultimately the new organization came to be called Al Qaeda–the Base. The alliance was conceived as a loose affiliation among individual mujahideen and established groups, and was dominated by Egyptian Islamic Jihad. The ultimate boss, however, was Osama bin Laden, who held the checkbook.

    This Egyptian Islamic Jihad comes up over and over in this report, this seems to be the link between the Sadam government and Al Qaeda. And since Al Qaeda is an offshoot of EIJ, that would make sense.

    Of course it is so much easier to say there is no connection and hope the problem goes away.

  151. shcb Says:


    I wasn’t happy with the response to Katrina, especially in New Orleans. I thought it was absolutely a travesty to see those people stranded in the Superdome day after day after day when busses sat submerged in parking lots, busses that could have been used to transport people out of there. But who’s fault was it? Not the military, that isn’t there job. Not Bush, he can’t use the military without an ok from the Governor. Ah, now we get to the bottom of it, it was the governor’s fault, and to a lesser extent, the mayor. The military and the President (a Republican) cleaned up the mess left by the governor and mayor (Democrats), big shock that is.

    The military (National Guard) in the past has been used primarily to prevent looting and handle security in these cases. This allows other agencies to do the relief work needed whether those agencies are federal or local. It also allows normal citizens to get the work done without interference from the bad guys. Exceptions are when they have equipment others don’t, like helicopters and such. Of course liberals have always wanted to use the military for humanitarian purposes, it’s hard to kill the enemy when you’re building homes. But that isn’t the purpose of the armed forces.

  152. knarlyknight Says:

    Katrina was a disgrace, no matter who you want to blame. Related issues you appear unaware about is Blackwater’s involvement (mercenaries used to fill a national guard vacuum) Blackwater confiscating guns from lawful homeowners who wanted to stay, nor of the policy of disallowing people to walk across the bridge to safety (and freedom). We’re past all that now though, these pale in significance to your new claims about Iraq.

    Present me with a list of what weapons are currently stockpiled in American Embassies around the world and we’ll compare the two lists and then we’ll talk. Until then, STFU.

  153. shcb Says:

    the weapons stockpiled in American embassies are there for the protection of American interests, not the killing of innocent civilians. Not quite the same.

    If I gave you the link would you read the report? the report is somewhere around 50 or 60 pages, FAS’s version is about 100, supporting documentation is somewhere over 1600 pages. From past experience I doubt you would take the time to read the 9 page executive summory. A smart move for you is to not read it, it may show your masters are feeding you as a mushroom. I get fiesty when folks tell me to stfu (I had to look that up)

  154. shcb Says:

    …but this discussion isn’t about who had what when, it is about the credibility of sources. Your sources said this particular document was going to prove Sadam had no ties to terrorism, this was to justify the claim the Bush administration had said 260, 950, however many lies. Of course it took all of two seconds to ascertain there was only one statement in question, WMD, after this was pointed out the perpetrators of this travesty had to back peddle a bit and say “we were also talking about the ties to terrorism” so now it was 260/950 divided by two instead of one. But this one wasn’t even close. Of course no one on your side is out there touting the study now are they? Go and find one lefty in the last month citing the guts of this report as how the Bush administration lied. I don’t have to resort to profanities because I’m right.

  155. knarlyknight Says:

    First off, I think you have me confused with Enkidu.  I am not sure exactly what it is that you are talking about when you assert: “Your sources said this particular document was going to prove Saddam had no ties to terrorism, …”

    First off, who are these sources?  Why do you think they are my sources?
    Next, did they really say what you assert, or were they saying that Saddam did not support the kind of terrorism such as 911?  Everyone knows Saddam provided financial assistance to families of suicide bombers, even Saddam acknowledged that a long time ago.  That might qualify as a “tie” to terrorists so anyone claiming he had none doesn’t know what they are talking about.  Also, a good argument can be made that those payments to grieving mothers etc. is more than a tie and is actually support for terrorists, albeit after the fact support.     
         As for your report, sure I’ll read it or at least more than the 9 page exec summ. provided it is not obvious garbage.  send me the link.
    Now, how about that list of USA weapons caches in foreign embassies to compare with the Iraqi documents?  While your Freedom of Info request on that is clearing the CIA’s administrative folks, please refer to:
    Operation Northwoods (Would that have been launched if Johnson was president instead of JFK, my guess is yes, certainly it would have been.)
    Operation Gladio investigations

  156. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb, was this the other thing you were talking about with NL and Enk?

  157. enkidu Says:

    rwnj – so now we went to war over WMDs that fit in diplomatic bags?
    I recall Powell talking about gigatons of Iraqi WMDz, where is all that stuff?
    The anthrax was from the US bioweapons lab in Maryland (see, rwnjs don’t Believe in genetics, so they didn’t think thru sending anthrax via the mail when we could trace the strain back to – surprise! – our own bioweapons lab: a false flag bioweapons scare)

    you do know we have extremely sensitive radiation detectors, right?
    and (esp since 9/11) incredible bio and chem weapon detection, right?

    So the gigatons of WMDz that aren’t in Iraq, weren’t in Iraq and had been removed and destroyed after GW1 are now hiding in Iraqi embassies the world over? Funny we kinda took over Iraq in 03 as I recall.. you’d a thunk we mighta found some of this stuff once we made them our vassal state.

    That report I skimmed sure was purty, but it is most probably full of the same fluff that got us into this mess in the first place. Curveball ring a bell? None of that crap was true, I expect none of that report you link to is either. You rwnjs have had almost 8 years to cook up the current plate of lies, let us have 8 years to uncover the the truth and let history decide. (hint: it aint gonna be purty for dumbya et al)

    just to bring it back to the thread start
    Obama won Texas (+5 delegates iirc) and barring the kind of racist bilge that defines the Rethugglican Party, he’ll beat McInsane by better than 5 points come November.

  158. shcb Says:

    This isn’t about WMD’s for crying out loud, it’s not even about the arms, it’s about the press getting it wrong and everyone thinking they got it right because they don’t correct themselves and then people think they were right and vote for pansies that will get millions killed and then blame it on Bush because the press still won’t tell the truth. It sickens me.

    Terrorists have never used WMD’s except for the attack on the subway in Tokyo. For decades they have killed civilized folks without WMD’s, the guys that killed 3000 in 2001 didn’t even have the technology of gunpowder. Storing RPGs, for terrorists is a big deal.

  159. knarlyknight Says:

    You’re basically right Enk, it’s the modus operandi that finally, finally, many Americans seem to be waking up to – lies about WMD, then oh no it was to get rid of Saddam, or the terrorists, or whatever , same M.O. on nearly every issue.

    John Feal has a LOT to say about that, if he is still alive. shcb, please look up that man and his story. Then, on a related note if you would tell me how Bush saw the first airplane on TV strike the North Tower before going into the classroom as he claimed in public on more than one occasion to have witnessed and tell me the implication of his having seen that hours before the video was handed over. lies….

  160. shcb Says:

    sorry, I never heard Bush say he saw the first plane hit the tower before he went into the classroom. If he did, he, like me, probably thought it was just a terrible accident, until the second plane hit.

  161. knarlyknight Says:

    Oh, man shcb – you are sorely lacking in a huge way about the simplest facts.

    It was anything but a simple mistake. Do a You- tube search, you should find at least two different occasions shortly after 911 where he re-told his story about SEEING ON THE TV PRIOR TO ENTERING THE CLASSROOM the first plane hit the tower, and saying to himself man that was one terrible pilot.

    Now there are two obvious conclusions. (1) He was lying. (2) He saw footage that no-one else saw. If (1) it is evidence of my point about Bush’s non-stop Lies, if (2) it invokes a whole range of crucial questions: Where did that footage he saw come from? Why was he and his entourage the only ones to see it and why was it never publically released? Who instructed the camera-person to film the first impact?

  162. shcb Says:

    I just don’t remember the time line of things. was the M Moore scene where he is in the room reading the little goat story after the first plane hit or the second? Is it possible the first plane had already hit before he went in the room? I just don’t remember. if I get time I’ll see if I can find out.

  163. enkidu Says:

    in dumbya’s own wordz

  164. knarlyknight Says:

    thanks Enk.

    now shcb, all you need to do is find ANY video of plane #1 impact that was available for the President to see when he claims he saw it. But you won’t, because others have tried and found that there was no video of the first plane impact available until much, much later. I think he forgot the script for that day and started add libbying. – A lie indicative of a greater malfeasance.

  165. shcb Says:


    I’m not going to spend a lot of time on this since it is silly even by your standards. Worst case he is lying, oh well. Second worst case, he remembers seeing a video but didn’t, he’s confused, it was 7 years ago, he’s been a little busy since then. The second plane hit the building fifteen, twenty minutes after the first. I’m thinking there were probably news crews on scene in that time and it is very possible Bush saw a clip of the first plane in the building. I’m not going to look any harder because if you Google anything on 911 you get about 5 pages of kooky conspiracy types before you get to anything of substance. So now we are at the point of debating the word “had”. If Bush said something like “I saw the first plane hit the building in a video in the hallway…” he would be wrong, if he said I saw the first plane had hit the building in a video in the hallway…” he would have been right. People don’t always speak with the clarity they write, in fact they rarely do look at a transcript of an interview sometime, see how many disjointed sentences and “um’s” and “ah’s” there are. That’s all I have to say about that.

  166. enkidu Says:

    McSame was just on the teevee admitting to US led gigadeathcrimes in Iraq:

    Letterman: 4,000 American men and women soldiers dead since we went into Iraq. Another 30,000 wounded. Untold Iraqis dead. We rarely hear that number. What would that number be? A quarter of a million? Half a million?

    McCain: It’s hard to make these estimates, but it’s in the hundreds of thousands, obviously.

    ‘obviously’ he meant to say “hundreds OR thousands” not “hundreds OF thousands” eh rwnj? Just a slip of the tongue, right?

  167. knarlyknight Says:

    shcb, your ignorance and new found willingness to cavaliarly dismiss Bush’s lies (“oh. well.” ) is astounding. Also, to say that the “Commander in Chief” could be confused over such a simple matter is about the most DAMNING thing you could say about a person in such a position.

    I’m not going to debate this with you again as you are too ignorant of basic facts:

    For instance these statements were not made seven years after the fact as you stupidly claim, rather they were made early in fall 2001. He claimed to have witnessed the first plane crashing into the tower, rather than investigate how that could be so you would rather bend over backwards twisting words and making excuses so that you can continue to live in your imaginary world created by your media masters.


  168. shcb Says:

    I’ve been called worse

  169. enkidu Says:

    rwnj – I can only imagine…

    btw – corn or soybeans aren’t the only biofuel feedstocks: this via CNN

    Kertz said he can produce about 100,000 gallons of algae oil a year per acre, compared to about 30 gallons per acre from corn; 50 gallons from soybeans.

    Using algae as an alternative fuel is not a new idea. The U.S. Department of Energy studied it for about 18 years, from 1978 to 1996. But according to Al Darzins of the DOE’s National Renewable Energy Lab, in 1996 the feds decided that algae oil could never compete economically with fossil fuels.

    The price of a barrel of oil in 1996? About 20 bucks!”

    Moral of the story: the economy was strong and oil was cheap under Democratic leadership in the ’90s. Note that this research started under Carter btw. Must be tough trying to invent more convoluted logic to turn that inside out.

    Gee now that crude oil is $100 to $110 a barrel it might actually be worth it to try to innovate our way out of a big mess… nah, just kidding! We keep spilling our blood into the sands of the middle east so the rwnjs and oil tycoons can bilk us ever faster. Bonus prize: we are propping up the Saudi Monarchy. Talk about your ‘unitary executive’

    Nope everything is just great! No need to change!
    Stay the course for a hundred years!

  170. shcb Says:

    100,000 gallons per acre? sounds great, is anyone doing it even as a test? there must be a down side, it takes a bunch of energy to produce it, it’s hard to harvest, something. I’ve said over and over I’m not against alternative energy, I just want it to make sense, not just doe it because “we need to do something, anything” the chicken little approach.

    But you are right, as oil prices go up these alternatives start looking better, that is capitalism.

  171. enkidu Says:

    go to link – click on the video button to see his testbed
    these aren’t dfhs (dirty fucking hippies)

    maybe if we had invested that $3 trillion in alternative energy programs we could have saved 4000 American lives, 100s of thousands of Iraqi lives AND told the Saudi King to go fuck himself (please excuse my language, just quoting dear misleader Cheney screaming at Patrick Leahy on the Senate floor).

    The energy input is the SUN, you know, the big bright thing in the sky? From the video it looks like the water is circulated (you could use wind or solar energy to power pumps, I bet they don’t need to circulate as much during the night time since their energy input is gone – guessing here).

    wiki states that the inputs algae require are sunlight and carbon (that is a twofer: eats carbon, produces oxygen). I imagine that some trace minerals are also required. This stuff lives everywhere there is water (from the poles to the tropics). There are some very interesting uses for algae – including hydrogen production. Go to wiki, type in algae and scroll down to Uses… bonus? I bet the cast off/processed algae makes great crop fertilizer. With 65,000 known species and possibly hundreds of thousands of additional species yet to be identified, I bet we can find a few that are really good at algae oil production or hydrogen generation. If we have the audacity to change.

    What?!?! No need to change! Thousand points of light! Stay the course!
    Iraq for a hundred years! No make it a thousand! wooowooo!

  172. shcb Says:

    What are you yelling at me about, making oil from seaweed sounds good to me, the guy from Boeing seemed to think it has some promise, it sounds like there are surly some technical hurdles to overcome, keeping it from getting disease for one thing. It seems the more hardy the plant, the less oil. But those problems can be overcome. The wiki article was a little less grandiose in regards to the amount of oil per acre but it is still impressive. I haven’t looked at it enough to know what energy has to go into the process versus the amount pulled out.

    Even if we got all our oil from domestic sources we would still be at war with the Arabs, this is a religious war after all. At least from their perspective.

    I think Cheney told Leahey to do an unnatural act in the cloakroom, not on the floor.

  173. enkidu Says:


    it is pretty simple: you put lifeform into sterile water, add carbon (even power plant waste – great way to sequester carbon btw!), perhaps some trace minerals and then add sunlight. Wait for algae to store the sunlight energy as lipid energy and then harvest. Start with even one of these things in a sterile environment and you can eliminate disease in the system. It is pond scum. The stuff is pretty hardy.

    1 to 3 trillion dollars (and 4000+ lives so far) on the Iraq Mistake. We could have used that money much more wisely. Now you’ll say something rwnj-ish like “but that is where we are today, so stop talking about past mistakes!” And I’ll have to respond with “if we don’t recognize our mistakes, we are bound to repeat them”

    There, I just saved us the energy of two further posts. Go enjoy a cold frosty one on me.

  174. knarlyknight Says:

    Well done Enk. It’s frightening how well you know shcb. And I would have thought shcb would know more about pond scum, considering…

  175. knarlyknight Says:

    it’s been almost 4 hours and no-one has completed the straight man line, so here goes:

    “would have thought shcb would know more about pond scume, considering… ”

    … he supports McNasty

  176. shcb Says:

    If I have all my zero’s right, if you get 100,000 gallons per acre per year, the high estimate of production of algae oil, you would have to put Connecticut under a roof and devote it to the production of oil to satisfy only the US’s use of oil. If you get 20,000 gallons per acre, West Virginia and if the production is 5,000 per acre, Oregon. My source is the World Almanac 2007. Now of course you wouldn’t use algae oil for everything, but that kind of gives you a scale of how little even a prolific bio fuel really helps.

  177. knarlyknight Says:

    Thanks for the math, shcb!

    Nagging questions remain:

    How many gallons of oil would you get if you harvested the pond scum in Washington DC and the area around Crawford?

    What if every homeowner had a little pond and each year they collected the algae and mailed it to the IRS instead of paying taxes, would that help?

    On a serious note, maybe the pond scum is a good use for the environmental disaster in areas where the Tar Sands have been mined in N. Alberta. By the time it’s all mined (c. 2150 at current rates?) I bet you could fit several connecticuts into the holes left behind. That’s crude reckoning.

    I promise never to pun again.

  178. shcb Says:

    But seriously folks, I read a book once, I think it was called the Contrary Gardener, by Gene Logstrom, something like that, you would like it, he is kind of a libertarian that thinks everyone should have a little patch to grow some chickens and raise vegetables. Instead of corporate farming. One stat he quoted was that people inhabit something like 4% of the landmass of the US, if everyone had two acres we would use 5% of the land mass, 1% more. If you get the chance, pick it up sometime, it’s a small book, a good reader could finish it in a few nights.

  179. knarlyknight Says:


    You read a book once? Finally you say something that I can believe.

  180. enkidu Says:

    Just got back from the gold country. The boys were very excited to go to a rodeo. One of the main attractions was a event where kids of similar ages got to chase a goat (whoever catches the goat, keeps the goat). Sadly, they didn’t catch the goat. It would have been quite the addition to our garden. We are putting something of a garden annex up on the flat part of our roof (gets way more sun than the other garden). We also compost. And ride our bikes or walk to school. Probably going to sell the other infernal combustion engine vehicle and wait for a good plugin hybrid or all electric. Then the rooftop garden comes out and the solar panels can go in.

    I am doing my part for the war on greedy oil tyrants (both arab n texan). How ’bout you?

  181. shcb Says:

    changed the spark plugs in the ole F150 a year or so ago. My wife just got a new car that get’s worse milage than the van but sure is fun to drive.

    (gotta give you one every now and then)

    I’m reading “Guerilla’s in the Mist” by Bob Newman now, all about the history and tactics of guerilla warfare, kind of fun.

  182. ymatt Says:

    Since we’re delving into personal snapshots, last year we added a radiant barrier and extra insulation to our attic and switched our lightbulbs to fluorescent — slowly switching to high-insulation windows now. None of these probably amount to much, but they may at least pay for themselves over a few years. I drive a sports car and I’ll be thrilled to switch to an electric as soon as they can make one fast enough within my budget.

    I’m currently (honestly, and coincidentally) reading “Collapse” by Jared Diamond, which is an excellent antidote to environmental sensationalism, laying out the historical precedents of civilizations that have faced and either adapted to or succumbed to environmental change or the limits of available resources.

  183. shcb Says:

    actually I’ve found something that has reduced our energy use a bunch. two of the three daughters moved out and took the boyfriend and grand daughter with. One of our hot water heaters went south and we haven’t bothered to replace it. We put half the house in cold storage last winter, with the last one leaving this year we may be able to afford a vacation.

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