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	<title>Comments on: Lessons of the SERE School</title>
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	<link>http://www.lies.com/wp/2007/10/12/lessons-of-the-sere-school/</link>
	<description>believe nothing...</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<item>
		<title>By: leftbehind</title>
		<link>http://www.lies.com/wp/2007/10/12/lessons-of-the-sere-school/#comment-70088</link>
		<dc:creator>leftbehind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 10:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lies.com/wp/2007/10/12/lessons-of-the-sere-school/#comment-70088</guid>
		<description>"It's not only apologists for torture who ignore this history when they blame abuses on "a few bad apples"--so too do many of torture's most prominent opponents. Apparently forgetting everything they once knew about US cold war misadventures, a startling number have begun to subscribe to an antihistorical narrative in which the idea of torturing prisoners first occurred to US officials on September 11, 2001, at which point the interrogation methods used in Guantánamo apparently emerged, fully formed, from the sadistic recesses of Dick Cheney's and Donald Rumsfeld's brains. Up until that moment, we are told, America fought its enemies while keeping its humanity intact.

The principal propagator of this narrative (what Garry Wills termed "original sinlessness") is Senator John McCain. Writing recently in Newsweek on the need for a ban on torture, McCain says that when he was a prisoner of war in Hanoi, he held fast to the knowledge "that we were different from our enemies...that we, if the roles were reversed, would not disgrace ourselves by committing or approving such mistreatment of them." It is a stunning historical distortion. By the time McCain was taken captive, the CIA had already launched the Phoenix program and, as McCoy writes, "its agents were operating forty interrogation centers in South Vietnam that killed more than twenty thousand suspects and tortured thousands more," a claim he backs up with pages of quotes from press reports as well as Congressional and Senate probes.

Does it somehow lessen the horrors of today to admit that this is not the first time the US government has used torture to wipe out its political opponents--that it has operated secret prisons before, that it has actively supported regimes that tried to erase the left by dropping students out of airplanes? That, at home, photographs of lynchings were traded and sold as trophies and warnings? Many seem to think so. On November 8 Democratic Congressman Jim McDermott made the astonishing claim to the House of Representatives that "America has never had a question about its moral integrity, until now." Molly Ivins, expressing her shock that the United States is running a prison gulag, wrote that "it's just this one administration...and even at that, it seems to be mostly Vice President Dick Cheney." And in the November issue of Harper's, William Pfaff argues that what truly sets the Bush Administration apart from its predecessors is "its installation of torture as integral to American military and clandestine operations." Pfaff acknowledges that long before Abu Ghraib, there were those who claimed that the School of the Americas was a "torture school," but he says that he was "inclined to doubt that it was really so." Perhaps it's time for Pfaff to have a look at the SOA textbooks coaching illegal torture techniques, all readily available in both Spanish and English, as well as the hair-raising list of SOA grads.

Other cultures deal with a legacy of torture by declaring "Never again!" Why do so many Americans insist on dealing with the current torture crisis by crying "Never Before"? I suspect it has to do with a sincere desire to convey the seriousness of this Administration's crimes. And the Bush Administration's open embrace of torture is indeed unprecedented--but let's be clear about what is unprecedented about it: not the torture but the openness. Past administrations tactfully kept their "black ops" secret; the crimes were sanctioned but they were practiced in the shadows, officially denied and condemned. The Bush Administration has broken this deal: Post-9/11, it demanded the right to torture without shame, legitimized by new definitions and new laws..."

thenation.com/doc/20051226/klein</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It&#8217;s not only apologists for torture who ignore this history when they blame abuses on &#8220;a few bad apples&#8221;&#8211;so too do many of torture&#8217;s most prominent opponents. Apparently forgetting everything they once knew about US cold war misadventures, a startling number have begun to subscribe to an antihistorical narrative in which the idea of torturing prisoners first occurred to US officials on September 11, 2001, at which point the interrogation methods used in Guantánamo apparently emerged, fully formed, from the sadistic recesses of Dick Cheney&#8217;s and Donald Rumsfeld&#8217;s brains. Up until that moment, we are told, America fought its enemies while keeping its humanity intact.</p>
<p>The principal propagator of this narrative (what Garry Wills termed &#8220;original sinlessness&#8221;) is Senator John McCain. Writing recently in Newsweek on the need for a ban on torture, McCain says that when he was a prisoner of war in Hanoi, he held fast to the knowledge &#8220;that we were different from our enemies&#8230;that we, if the roles were reversed, would not disgrace ourselves by committing or approving such mistreatment of them.&#8221; It is a stunning historical distortion. By the time McCain was taken captive, the CIA had already launched the Phoenix program and, as McCoy writes, &#8220;its agents were operating forty interrogation centers in South Vietnam that killed more than twenty thousand suspects and tortured thousands more,&#8221; a claim he backs up with pages of quotes from press reports as well as Congressional and Senate probes.</p>
<p>Does it somehow lessen the horrors of today to admit that this is not the first time the US government has used torture to wipe out its political opponents&#8211;that it has operated secret prisons before, that it has actively supported regimes that tried to erase the left by dropping students out of airplanes? That, at home, photographs of lynchings were traded and sold as trophies and warnings? Many seem to think so. On November 8 Democratic Congressman Jim McDermott made the astonishing claim to the House of Representatives that &#8220;America has never had a question about its moral integrity, until now.&#8221; Molly Ivins, expressing her shock that the United States is running a prison gulag, wrote that &#8220;it&#8217;s just this one administration&#8230;and even at that, it seems to be mostly Vice President Dick Cheney.&#8221; And in the November issue of Harper&#8217;s, William Pfaff argues that what truly sets the Bush Administration apart from its predecessors is &#8220;its installation of torture as integral to American military and clandestine operations.&#8221; Pfaff acknowledges that long before Abu Ghraib, there were those who claimed that the School of the Americas was a &#8220;torture school,&#8221; but he says that he was &#8220;inclined to doubt that it was really so.&#8221; Perhaps it&#8217;s time for Pfaff to have a look at the SOA textbooks coaching illegal torture techniques, all readily available in both Spanish and English, as well as the hair-raising list of SOA grads.</p>
<p>Other cultures deal with a legacy of torture by declaring &#8220;Never again!&#8221; Why do so many Americans insist on dealing with the current torture crisis by crying &#8220;Never Before&#8221;? I suspect it has to do with a sincere desire to convey the seriousness of this Administration&#8217;s crimes. And the Bush Administration&#8217;s open embrace of torture is indeed unprecedented&#8211;but let&#8217;s be clear about what is unprecedented about it: not the torture but the openness. Past administrations tactfully kept their &#8220;black ops&#8221; secret; the crimes were sanctioned but they were practiced in the shadows, officially denied and condemned. The Bush Administration has broken this deal: Post-9/11, it demanded the right to torture without shame, legitimized by new definitions and new laws&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>thenation.com/doc/20051226/klein</p>
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		<title>By: leftbehind</title>
		<link>http://www.lies.com/wp/2007/10/12/lessons-of-the-sere-school/#comment-70087</link>
		<dc:creator>leftbehind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 10:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lies.com/wp/2007/10/12/lessons-of-the-sere-school/#comment-70087</guid>
		<description>The techniques employed under the Bush Administration have been in practice for at least fifty years, and are all text book procedures taught in torture classes at the School for the Americas, which has operated for how many years with the full knowledge and co-operation of just how many Presidents? How many of those Presidents were Democrat, again? (yes, I realize Jimmy Carter made noise to curb the SOA, but wasn't that while his own administration was in cahoots with myriad SOA graduates involved in the US Sponsored Operation Condor?) Not excusing Bush, but the idea some people have that we were running a clean show until he took office and that everything will be okay when the good guys come back is short-sighted and naive. We've been dirty as shit for a long time, even when it wasn't politically expedient to notice and the next bunch will be as bad as the previous, although they certainly won't be as sloppy. The problem is more intrinsic to the system than can be even understood through the prism of partisan politics.


"Apparently forgetting everything they once knew about US cold war misadventures, a startling number have begun to subscribe to an antihistorical narrative in which the idea of torturing prisoners first occurred to US officials on September 11, 2001, at which point the interrogation methods used in Guantánamo apparently emerged, fully formed, from the sadistic recesses of Dick Cheney's and Donald Rumsfeld's brains. Up until that moment, we are told, America fought its enemies while keeping its humanity intact.The principal propagator of this narrative (what Garry Wills termed "original sinlessness") is Senator John McCain. Writing recently in Newsweek on the need for a ban on torture, McCain says that when he was a prisoner of war in Hanoi, he held fast to the knowledge "that we were different from our enemies...that we, if the roles were reversed, would not disgrace ourselves by committing or approving such mistreatment of them." It is a stunning historical distortion. By the time McCain was taken captive, the CIA had already launched the Phoenix program and, as McCoy writes, "its agents were operating forty interrogation centers in South Vietnam that killed more than twenty thousand suspects and tortured thousands more," a claim he backs up with pages of quotes from press reports as well as Congressional and Senate probes.

Does it somehow lessen the horrors of today to admit that this is not the first time the US government has used torture to wipe out its political opponents--that it has operated secret prisons before, that it has actively supported regimes that tried to erase the left by dropping students out of airplanes? That, at home, photographs of lynchings were traded and sold as trophies and warnings? Many seem to think so. On November 8 Democratic Congressman Jim McDermott made the astonishing claim to the House of Representatives that "America has never had a question about its moral integrity, until now." Molly Ivins, expressing her shock that the United States is running a prison gulag, wrote that "it's just this one administration...and even at that, it seems to be mostly Vice President Dick Cheney." And in the November issue of Harper's, William Pfaff argues that what truly sets the Bush Administration apart from its predecessors is "its installation of torture as integral to American military and clandestine operations." Pfaff acknowledges that long before Abu Ghraib, there were those who claimed that the School of the Americas was a "torture school," but he says that he was "inclined to doubt that it was really so." Perhaps it's time for Pfaff to have a look at the SOA textbooks coaching illegal torture techniques, all readily available in both Spanish and English, as well as the hair-raising list of SOA grads... "

More at http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051226/klein

http://www.counterpunch.org/hodge11032004.html

http://www.logosjournal.com/issue_5.3/borzutzky_mcsherry.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The techniques employed under the Bush Administration have been in practice for at least fifty years, and are all text book procedures taught in torture classes at the School for the Americas, which has operated for how many years with the full knowledge and co-operation of just how many Presidents? How many of those Presidents were Democrat, again? (yes, I realize Jimmy Carter made noise to curb the SOA, but wasn&#8217;t that while his own administration was in cahoots with myriad SOA graduates involved in the US Sponsored Operation Condor?) Not excusing Bush, but the idea some people have that we were running a clean show until he took office and that everything will be okay when the good guys come back is short-sighted and naive. We&#8217;ve been dirty as shit for a long time, even when it wasn&#8217;t politically expedient to notice and the next bunch will be as bad as the previous, although they certainly won&#8217;t be as sloppy. The problem is more intrinsic to the system than can be even understood through the prism of partisan politics.</p>
<p>&#8220;Apparently forgetting everything they once knew about US cold war misadventures, a startling number have begun to subscribe to an antihistorical narrative in which the idea of torturing prisoners first occurred to US officials on September 11, 2001, at which point the interrogation methods used in Guantánamo apparently emerged, fully formed, from the sadistic recesses of Dick Cheney&#8217;s and Donald Rumsfeld&#8217;s brains. Up until that moment, we are told, America fought its enemies while keeping its humanity intact.The principal propagator of this narrative (what Garry Wills termed &#8220;original sinlessness&#8221;) is Senator John McCain. Writing recently in Newsweek on the need for a ban on torture, McCain says that when he was a prisoner of war in Hanoi, he held fast to the knowledge &#8220;that we were different from our enemies&#8230;that we, if the roles were reversed, would not disgrace ourselves by committing or approving such mistreatment of them.&#8221; It is a stunning historical distortion. By the time McCain was taken captive, the CIA had already launched the Phoenix program and, as McCoy writes, &#8220;its agents were operating forty interrogation centers in South Vietnam that killed more than twenty thousand suspects and tortured thousands more,&#8221; a claim he backs up with pages of quotes from press reports as well as Congressional and Senate probes.</p>
<p>Does it somehow lessen the horrors of today to admit that this is not the first time the US government has used torture to wipe out its political opponents&#8211;that it has operated secret prisons before, that it has actively supported regimes that tried to erase the left by dropping students out of airplanes? That, at home, photographs of lynchings were traded and sold as trophies and warnings? Many seem to think so. On November 8 Democratic Congressman Jim McDermott made the astonishing claim to the House of Representatives that &#8220;America has never had a question about its moral integrity, until now.&#8221; Molly Ivins, expressing her shock that the United States is running a prison gulag, wrote that &#8220;it&#8217;s just this one administration&#8230;and even at that, it seems to be mostly Vice President Dick Cheney.&#8221; And in the November issue of Harper&#8217;s, William Pfaff argues that what truly sets the Bush Administration apart from its predecessors is &#8220;its installation of torture as integral to American military and clandestine operations.&#8221; Pfaff acknowledges that long before Abu Ghraib, there were those who claimed that the School of the Americas was a &#8220;torture school,&#8221; but he says that he was &#8220;inclined to doubt that it was really so.&#8221; Perhaps it&#8217;s time for Pfaff to have a look at the SOA textbooks coaching illegal torture techniques, all readily available in both Spanish and English, as well as the hair-raising list of SOA grads&#8230; &#8221;</p>
<p>More at <a href="http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051226/klein" rel="nofollow">http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051226/klein</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/hodge11032004.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.counterpunch.org/hodge11032004.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.logosjournal.com/issue_5.3/borzutzky_mcsherry.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.logosjournal.com/issue_5.3/borzutzky_mcsherry.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: J.A.Y.S.O.N.</title>
		<link>http://www.lies.com/wp/2007/10/12/lessons-of-the-sere-school/#comment-70049</link>
		<dc:creator>J.A.Y.S.O.N.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lies.com/wp/2007/10/12/lessons-of-the-sere-school/#comment-70049</guid>
		<description>One of the protagonists in William Gibson's last novel &lt;em&gt;Spook Country&lt;/em&gt; mentioned the SERE school. I knew I had heard that from somewhere</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the protagonists in William Gibson&#8217;s last novel <em>Spook Country</em> mentioned the SERE school. I knew I had heard that from somewhere</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: jbc</title>
		<link>http://www.lies.com/wp/2007/10/12/lessons-of-the-sere-school/#comment-69942</link>
		<dc:creator>jbc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:40:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lies.com/wp/2007/10/12/lessons-of-the-sere-school/#comment-69942</guid>
		<description>Heh. Shew me not pained, but pleased, at the thought that you might read Takeover, and, despite sighs declaring my little faith in its efficacy, dutifully noting down the name Debunking 9/11 Debunking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh. Shew me not pained, but pleased, at the thought that you might read Takeover, and, despite sighs declaring my little faith in its efficacy, dutifully noting down the name Debunking 9/11 Debunking.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: knarlyknight</title>
		<link>http://www.lies.com/wp/2007/10/12/lessons-of-the-sere-school/#comment-69916</link>
		<dc:creator>knarlyknight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 05:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lies.com/wp/2007/10/12/lessons-of-the-sere-school/#comment-69916</guid>
		<description>I feel a little guilty as a Canadian devoting so much time to observing what is happening in America, and had been thinking it is about time to reconnect with what is happening here in my home and native land.  However, I am willing to put that off just long enough to read &lt;i&gt;Takeover&lt;/i&gt; on the condition that you, jbc, read merely the Introduction, Part 3 amd Part 4 of David Ray Griffin's &lt;i&gt;DEBUNKING 9/11 DEBUNKING An Answer to Popular Mechanics and Other Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory&lt;/i&gt;.  Deal?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel a little guilty as a Canadian devoting so much time to observing what is happening in America, and had been thinking it is about time to reconnect with what is happening here in my home and native land.  However, I am willing to put that off just long enough to read <i>Takeover</i> on the condition that you, jbc, read merely the Introduction, Part 3 amd Part 4 of David Ray Griffin&#8217;s <i>DEBUNKING 9/11 DEBUNKING An Answer to Popular Mechanics and Other Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory</i>.  Deal?</p>
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