Dyer on ‘Loose Change’
Gwynne Dyer is awesome. The part I like the best is the way he’s perfectly willing to accept for the sake of argument that either the “small” or “large” version of the 9/11 conspiracy theory is correct — and then proceeds to logically consider the facts of the matter in order to come to his conclusions. Conspiracy theories are not true or false based on the inherent outlandishness of the claim. They’re true or false based on whether they’re true or false, and like Sherlock Holmes, you need to take a scientific approach if you want a chance to arrive at the truth.
Anyway: Film gives life to brain-rotting 9/11 conspiracy theories.
In normal times you wouldn’t waste breath arguing with people who fall for this kind of rubbish, but the makers of “Loose Change” claim that their film has already been seen by over 100 million people, and looking at my e-mail in-tray I believe them. It is a real problem because by linking their fantasies about 9/11 to the Bush administration’s deliberate deception of the American people in order to gain support for the invasion of Iraq they bring discredit on the truth and the nonsense alike.
You almost wonder if they are secretly working for the Bush administration.
March 9th, 2007 at 10:43 am
At least he is honest enough to classify the President’s statements “deceptions” not “lies”. Question; if a man calls another a liar knowing the second man didn’t lie, is the first man a liar?
March 9th, 2007 at 10:53 am
From Webster’s of 1913, in the ‘usage’ section for ‘deception’:
I’m not sure what the distinction is that you’re trying to make between Bush’s “deceptions” and his “lies”, but I guess I’m interested enough to ask. So: What’s the difference?
March 9th, 2007 at 9:25 pm
A lie is the telling of an untruth that you know at the time was an untruth, with malicious intent. That is my definition, I haven’t looked the word up, but I know if I followed that simple definition growing up, I didn’t get beat. As your definition says, deception does not always imply aim or intention. In simplest terms a lie is pretty much black and white, although the results of that lie can have a wide range of ramifications, usually, but not always negative. Deception has every shade of gray and can also have a wide range of ramifications. We add the malicious intent clause to differentiate lies that cause harm from “white lies”.
When Clinton lied in court, the lie itself wasn’t that bad, two consenting adults having sex. This was a lie because Clinton new at the time he said he didn’t have sex with that woman, he indeed had had sex with that woman. No one knew if he was or wasn’t lying until the DNA was checked on the blue dress. Then he said he hadn’t lied, another lie and then he admitted to having an inappropriate sexual relationship, that was deception to cover the obvious lie. So now we have a lie, that lie is not serious, the ramifications to Clinton’s career may have been serious but the ramifications to the public or to justice were not. Remember a lie is a lie, the level harm depends on the specific case. What raised the bar in this case was that it was material in a sexual harassment case. It always amazed me you guys glossed right over that since you are for women’s rights and all.
For the record, I was against bringing charges against Clinton for the sexual harassment. I think sitting presidents should have immunity from civil cases until after they leave office. Let them pay the piper after it is no longer such a distraction to the country.
A lie isn’t always a bad thing, nor is deception. In Operation Overlord, the Allies devised an elaborate deception to trick the Germans into thinking the attack was going to be at Calais, not Normandy. If Eisenhower had called Rommel and said “Erwin, your old friend George is going to attack France at the skinniest part of the channel on July 4 to coincide with our Independence Day” it would have been a lie, and placing Patton and all the other elaborate props there with him would have been a deception, but it would not have been a bad lie or a bad deception. Except from our enemies point of view.
Back to Bush. If he said Hussein had WMD based on the best intelligence available at the time, and the intelligence was wrong, there was no lie. If there was contradictory intelligence and he chose to ignore it, finding the pro WMD intel to more reliable, he didn’t lie. Deciding to go to war with or without WMD proof , as the Downing Street Memo said doesn’t mean he lied, it just means he felt there were enough other reasons to invade with or without WMD. You can disagree with the decision, but that doesn’t mean there was a lie.
Now on to deception. You can deceive without lying, showing a picture of a car you are selling only on the side that was not wrecked for instance. You didn’t say it wasn’t wrecked, but you didn’t say it was either. This would be a harmful and probably illegal deception. If you have information that would help your opponent in a debate, but you purposely don’t give it to him to be used against you, that is a form of deception, albeit on the periphery of the term, but this deception isn’t bad. It is bad for your opponent, but it is not bad for you, and after your (our) interests, everyone else’s comes first.
At this point I haven’t seen any credible evidence this administration lied, and very little that it even deceived. They may not have told every single thing, presidents seldom can. There are national security issues to consider, remember Arabs get CNN too. You also don’t want your enemy to know what you know about them, and the press today, unlike the press in past wars doesn’t hold back information that would be detrimental to this country so you simply can’t give them the information in the first place. He also has political enemies in this country like you guys and all but a couple token Democrats in congress that don’t have the best interests of this country in mind, only their own political ambitions.
I hope this clears things up. I have been trying to add items to the Justification for invasion thread, and they aren’t going through, do the threads stop accepting items after they get so far down the line?
March 9th, 2007 at 9:47 pm
Hm. No, you should be able to post comments there. If you can give me more specifics of what you’re trying to do, and what happens when you do it, I’ll try to figure out what the problem is.
On the Bush/Clinton lying/deception thing, thanks for explaining your point of view. From my perspective, they both lied. And without trying to be snarky, I think your willingness to give Bush truckloads of benefit of the doubt as to his intentions and actions, even at this stage, indicates a fairly strong bias. Which is fine; you can view the world through whatever perceptual filter floats your boat. I just don’t see much point in getting into the details of it with you. You’re clearly capable of maintaining your opinion in the face of contrary evidence; I don’t require further confirmation of that.
I guess I’m suffering from Bush-fatigue.
March 9th, 2007 at 10:40 pm
Hi shcb - appreciate your politeness, I realize that does not come easy for self described right wing rednecks, but it has allowed us thinking liberals to understand the (misinformed) reasoning behind the silly (but dangerous and fearsome) things you right wingers and neo cons say. I really feel sorry that you types have to exist in such a treacherous world view of reality; I just wish you would stop trying to impose that “them A-rabs are out to get us”, or whatever other garbage mentality (”you’re either with us or yer gainst us,” says gwb) on everyone else. On that note, please just support peace.
re: your last post jbc: well said, and more polite than I - so congrats on that front.
As for the topic: As much as I’ve respected Gwyn Dyer in the past, he’s losing me on this one. He’s built a pretty impressive “straw-man” argument here (saying 10,000 people had to be involved if it were a government conspiracy - which is totally NOT the way black-ops are configured) and then he makes the easy argument that that would be impossible to keep silent. Why would a smart guy like Gwynne build such a silly construct, is he really getting that sloppy in his analysis? By the way, most respected 911 truther’s are not saying the kinds of things critics like Gwynne (more commonly Hannity etc.) attribute to them, truthers are mostly saying that the Government’s version of events makes no sense (e.g. defies laws of physics, etc.) I’m starting to suffer from fatigue on this issue too… for some BASIC facts without the crap, see this: http://911scholars.org/
http://911scholars.org/
Cheers.
March 10th, 2007 at 8:58 am
Jbc, thanks for the offer but it was more just me blathering on and on. I had a lot of links in it, maybe they didn’t pass a virus check or something. I know it made it to the server, because on resending I got a message that I had already sent it. I was most concerned that I had left some issues open with Knarly, but he or she (Knarly can you tell me which it is so I know how to address you) has left a post here so I will respond now.
I do have a bias toward Bush, not only because I share basically the same viewpoint, but I also find him credible and decent. But you’re right, I takes a lot more evidence to have someone convince you your brother has done something wrong than a co-worker you don’t like. However, I don’t find ALL Republican elected officials credible or decent. Liking someone is emotional, I liked Bill Clinton, he seemed like a good guy to have a beer with, more likable in that way than Bush. But I didn’t find him credible because of the string of provable lies, even giving him a pass on the improvable ones. And I didn’t find him decent because of his extra marital exploits, credibility in this case is based on logic and truth, decency is based on a combination of personal values and truth.
I know we aren’t going to change the core values of each other here, probably won’t even change the others minds on many issues. I see these exchanges having several purposes; to try and change the minds of others reading these words that are in the middle, and may not have completely made up their minds on an issue. Secondly, having the opportunity to form arguments at your leisure, sitting in your home office, in comfortable clothes, with you favorite adult beverage at hand, rum and coke for me thanks. It comes in handy when at dinner with people of a different philosophy to have already have well thought out ideas practiced in your mind. Most importantly, it allows us to see the other side’s argument on our own terms. No producer or call screener to filter the content and no censor to filter profanity when it is needed for dramatic effect, though it’s use should be exceedingly rare. It is probably too late in this military campaign to change anyone’s mind, we are all so invested. But there will be another, I heard once in the last 4000 years there have only been a little over 250 where there was no major armed conflict occurring somewhere in the world.
We’re all tired of the war, we could end this battle quickly by throwing the entire might of our forces at the conflict, even without resorting to nuclear. It would result in massive civilian loss. Then you would see a massive influx of average citizens into the ranks of the terrorist organizations. Destroying individual homes with smart bombs, killing snipers without destroying an apartment house filled with women and children, handing beany babies, candy, and soccer balls to kids. Building soccer fields and schools, all these things take a lot more time than simply turning a city to rubble, and it goes against my redneck git-er-done mentality, but my rational side tells me it is the proper, though slow and painful way to go. Have patience.
Pray for our troops
Short Haired Country Boy
March 10th, 2007 at 8:59 am
Knarly,
Actually, us rednecks ( in the summer, when I’m on my tractor a lot, I look a bit like Hank Hill, except he’s more handsome) are quite polite, “yes Sir, Ma’am” , “tip your hat to the lady, son” that kind of thing. One of our character traits is we like to needle folks we don’t like or don’t agree with, there is a little bully in all us, that is hard for me to keep bottled up, you should see the sentences and paragraphs I delete after I re-read them. I say with a grin on my face “these guys have been pretty decent to me, they don’t deserve this” and then grudgingly hit the delete key.
This is kind of a make nice letter so I won’t argue who is right or wrong. I would like to address my use of the terms Arabs, Muslims, Islam, Islomofascism, and terrorist. I must admit ignorance into what some of these terms mean, when religion, nationalism and race or at least a subset of a race converge like they do with this group of people I find it hard to distinguish where the lines are drawn, I have the same problem with the Jews. From what I understand, if you are born into a Jewish family, you are a Jew. You can also convert. And Jews have some physical traits that seem to make them a subset of the Caucasian race. Not all to be sure, but enough for the generalization to hold true. I see the same in the Arab, Muslims, Islamic culture, religion, race.
I don’t like to use the word terrorist to describe the group of people I am talking about here. Terror is a tactic used in conflicts, not only war but organized crime, street fights, and corporate boardrooms. The one common denominator in this war, and I’m talking about the world wide war against the western culture, not just Iraq, which I consider a campaign, it is bigger than a battle but doesn’t encompass the whole war, that common denominator is the Islamic religion. From the Philippians, to Russia, the Mid East, Europe and America, the attacks carried out against western countries, targeting innocent civilians, over the last 30 years have mostly be mostly perpetrated by followers of Mohammed. Oklahoma City and the destruction of the lodge at Vail were terrorist acts no doubt, but that doesn’t make non-Muslim attacks a very high percentage. Those modern facts of life may not agree with the definition of the word but neither do the definitions of conservative and liberal.
The group I would like to describe is of course the people carrying out the attacks, but also that population of the Arab world that are sympathetic to the cause. I don’t know what percentage that is, I’ve heard 25-50 percent. I prefer Islomofascist, but it doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue. I don’t want to unintentionally insult anyone or their religion so tell me what term you would like me to use in this forum, I reserve the right to refuse your suggestion, but I’ll be fair.
I watched some of the “who stole my religion” video, it seemed he was more upset with Hollywood than anyone else. Doesn’t he realize they are on his side and work in a world of make believe? Personally, I’d be more pissed off at the folks that stole my religion than the ones trying to return it to me. There was a clip of the differences in men and women showering on the same page, now that was funny.
I read the article on Joshua Key. I’m sorry the military experience didn’t work out for Mr. Key. If he didn’t want to risk going to war, perhaps getting a grant, or a student loan would have been a more appropriate way to fund his education. The mission of the military is to kill people and break things, not provide a hand up for those who are down. I don’t have a lot of sympathy for people who complain the recruiters lied to them, didn’t he ever see Private Benjamin?
After reading the touching story of this young man I did a quick Google search. Now I have lived next door to Oklahoma all my life, lived within two miles of the border for a couple years. I know some “uneducated” folks from Oklahoma, they don’t write books, and go on the lecture circuit. Looking at his itinerary, he’s doing quite well with his new found celebrity status, hope he enjoys it while it lasts, Canada has an extradition agreement with the US now for deserters.
Now this guy may be telling the truth, or he may be lying to garner sympathy to mask his cowardice, I don’t know. I do know reporter after imbedded reporter has commented on the professionalism and compassion of our troops to the Iraqi people. Some of them admitted they went to Iraq with the prejudice that soldiers are as you see them. It seems to me that if one lowly grunt went on mission after mission where the primary task was to terrorize the indigenous peoples, at least one reporter would have noticed the same.
That said, atrocities happen in every war, have since the beginning of time. You’re taking 19 year old men with adrenalin and hormones raging, putting high powered weapons in their hands and sending them to kill people and break things. On occasion the incredible stress will send one over the top. But I dare say no country in the history of the world, with the possible exception of England has done more to mitigate the frequency of these transgressions, or bring the offenders to justice.
Pray for our troops
Short Haired Country Boy
March 11th, 2007 at 1:50 am
Hey shcb,
I agree with some of your points. I live in Canada, support my wife, 2 kids, 4 dogs and a cat that rules the roost… I have held the same challenging desk job for the past 12 years and recently spend my spare time restoring our old 3,000 sq. ft. house back to some of its former glory. I cycle through traffic to work every day, use my 10 year old SUV to take our dogs the 20 minute drive to excercise at a nearby lake or to the ocean after work, unless we walk across the street to a neighborhood park; and, I have cousins in your neck of the woods - Boulder, Colorado.
Canada considers itself Americas friend. Not pro-republican, not pro-Democrat, just a friend. Listen, you’ve lost your way and we would like to help. Here is some information from our public broadcasting corporation that explains America`s involvement in Iraq. I do not agree with all of it, so you might like it. Please do not be put off by the title (The Lies that Led to War) …You can watch it here (unless you are censored):
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/lies/
Yes, Joshua Keyes may be better off here even with the cold than in Kansas or Iraq. I agree that he probably has incentives to exaggerate. Except, you can line up his story with some of the 27,000 maimed US Iraqi veterans who, despite being coerced into silence, still speak out to describe the USA’s aggressive occupation and wanton disregard for civilian life. Then you can’t help but see a bigger, horrible picture. (Unless you watch Fox then you mostly just think about Anna Nicole Smith.)
I really appreciate your `make nice` letter; I am doing my best to reciprocate. The problem is that we are talking about issues where millions of people lives have been horribly impacted on a pack of lies or deceptions or perhaps: criminal intent. Please continue your patience with me if I cannot maintain the same civility. I am less than pleased at your presidents failed ventures.
Yes, war is hell. Thanks to the USA, the former Mesopotamia (Iraq) is now a living hell. For example, millions of people in Baghdad now get electricity a couple hours a day if they are lucky. Sanitation facilities are near non-existent and they’ve been living in those conditions since Bush decided to bomb the crap out of the country and its infrastructure 4 years ago. How would you like to live in an open sewer with millions of people for 4 years? All because your buddy Bush decided Saddam was a bad guy. Or no longer as useful as he was in the 1980’s (when, by the way, the USA provided him with poison gas to kill troublesome Iranians or Kurds.) Way to go USA, put millions of people through living hell to depose a dictator who was put into power by your own CIA operations in the first place. Not to mention that the “depleted” uranium (that means still very radioactive) dust from your country`s ordinance will ensure early deaths and high rates of mutated birth (does American news report these, e.g. Iraqi baby`s now born with external intestines – do you have kids - shcb can you relate to what this would do to your psych) Amerika is now responsible for the untold suffering to take place virtually forever in these desert lands for millions of people – with feelings just like you and me- through radiation poisoning. Except of course, this can`t be so because the Pentagon says that depleted uranium ordinance is safe. Amerika, you are only fooling yourself.
Maybe deposing Saddam is not the official excuse, I can’t keep track of all the lies. It was a WMD threat originally, wasn’t it? No-one who looks at the evidence available in 2003 could credibly believe that it was ever about WMD (except those who are spoon fed by Fox & the rest of the MSM or who WANT to be misled.) Millions of people around the world, who were not spoon fed news from the USA military industrial complex, KNEW the WMD claim was bogus at the time that Amerika was issuing warmongering propoganda to its citizens. Trying to deceive the world with Niger yellowcake, aluminum tubes and all that other crap, still the world`s people did everything we could do to tell the American people that Bush and the warmongering was wrong (huge protest marches everywhere, but that was barely reported in Amerika.) Alas we could not get through to you then. I wonder why I am still trying now. Later, even Michael Moore’s acceptance speech at the Academy Awards, in which he brought ALL the other best documentary nominees onto stage with him in solidarity with his acceptance speech warning that America is living in “fictitious times” and your president is engaging in a “fictitious war.” But MM was jeered and quickly shunned by Amerika`s MSM. Then again maybe the purpose of attacking Iraq was to erase the huge oil deals Iraq was making with Russia and France (now Amerika controls the oil deals), or because Saddam was planning to start an oil bourse in Euro`s in 2003 and dump the US$ … whatever, it doesn`t matter, because it was clear to all except those willing to be deceived that there was no imminent threat to the USA from Saddam. That makes the invasion and occupation of Iraq heinous war crimes. Period. Maybe you Republicans can use a git er done mentality to prosecute those criminals in the Whitehouse for these crimes against humanity.
Anyway, we may never agree but try to realize that I am trying to warn you that you are getting faulty half-baked news from your government and MSM and you, or your leaders, do not having a deep enough understanding about other peoples and cultures. I am not pleased with the death, destruction, poverty that Amerika has inflicted on other peoples and from the polls I`ve seen around the world I am not alone.
To finish up, here are some comments on the points you raised:
Israel is a country, many Jews live there (America is a country, many Christians live there.) Judaism is a religion, Jews believe in it (Christianity is a religion that Christians believe in). There are different kinds of Jews (and there are different kinds of Christians.) Iran is a country, many Muslims live there. There are different kinds of Muslims.
Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the same God. Details of their prophets vary. God in any of these religions emphasises the sanctity of life, and all things in His creation. Using any religion to justify war is a fraud (even Jihad).
There is no world wide war against the western culture. That is propaganda, mostly from your government. Wake up. If anything, there is a world wide war by Amerika with its military bases spread in hundreds of countries around the world and secret prisons set against anything and anyone who threatens the supremacy of its Corporations. Wait a second, that can`t be right, that would mean the Nazis have taken over the world. Hmm. Anyway, Western culture is flourishing quite well, terrorism is less of a risk than lightning or bee stings. Again, wake up.
Terrorists usually are recruited from peoples who have been brutally oppressed and who do not have any access to legitimate justice. They are marginal. Your government has blown their importance out of all proportion. They are guilty of colluding with the terrorists to create a spectacular fear (the real goal of terrorism) within the gullable American psyche. Mainly this was done by constructing (amazingly within the first few hours of the morning of 9112001) a full blown Arab conspiracy story featuring 19 scary photos of the suspected Arab perpetrators (15 of the 19 were Saudi, why didn’t you bomb that kingdom instead?) That’s truly amazing detective work from a bumbling FBI! You didn`t mention http://www.911scholars.org in your reply. Someday, hopefully we will find the truth.
You say that attacks on civilians have mostly been perpetrated by followers of Mohammed. I would add that followers of Jesus have perpetuated grossly disproportionate responses to those attacks, resulting in tens or 100x or more innocent deaths (excuse me, I meant to say collatoral damage.) I would really like to know the real reasons for the original attacks. If the original attacks were grossly disproportionate responses to an injustice or oppression (violence is no solution), you might agree that was wrong. But a grossly disproportionate response to the original attack is also wrong.
(Also, if I’m not mistaken the attacks in 1995, 1996 1998 and 2000 were on embassies and US military targets, not all civilian but that’s splitting hairs, and they were attributable to bion laden and Saudi funding, so why you are killing Iraqis is moreso a mystery.)
“ISLAMOFASCIST” is the most stupid term ever coined - no wonder Bush likes to use it. Do yourself a favour and get schooled on what is fascism really (here’s the condensed version but do not to get too scared, characteristics of fascism mirror your current corporate government military cooperation closely: http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html Then if you learn about Islam, how it deals with money and cares for the less well off in society, then maybe you will stop parroting your moronic leader.
Glad you watched some of the three minute Who Stole my Religion Video. Although you missed the message if you couldn`t watch the remaining 60 seconds or so. Your loss.
Joshua Key - I too don`t have much sympathy for people who get lied to by recruiters, they should better by their 17th birthday (that their government cannot be trusted.) You may be right too about the mission of a military being mainly to kill people and break things. Amerika spends most of its GDP on that, and spends many times more on that than the rest of the world combined. That tells us where Amerikas priorities in its relations with other countries. Kill people and break things. Nice neighbors I`ve got. (expletive deleted.)
I pray for the people subjugated by your troops, I hear you are lowering standards even further and enlisting more criminals.
Oh, and before your military bastards bomb the hell out of Iran for your viewing pleasure (Shock and Awe on CNN, highlights at eleven) turn on your speakers and consider these people:
http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
Support Peace.
March 12th, 2007 at 10:52 am
meh.
I’ve watched “Loose Change” and it should be retitled “Screw Loose”
Some of the claims just assume a willing army of diehard conservative nutjobs… wait a second… hmmmm…
Actually I think a much better documentary is “The Power of Nightmares”
The radical Islamists have been ‘emboldened’ by the usual Washington stupidity and bluster (as well as an illegal invasion and brutal occupation). As someone who volunteered for the XX in XX, who travelled the world, who fell in love with a Muslim girl in XX (nearly married her, but that is a long story, even by shcb’s prolific prose standards), I have to say that the average American is indeed a clueless sheeple. Radical Islamists hate us for our Israel policy (you know… American bombs shredding Arab children?) and for our clueless meddling in the middle east (imposing the Shah, propping up the corrupt and extremist Saudis, etc etc etc) But they love us for our unique American traits as well: equality, opportunity, wealth, justice, and peace. shcb do you even know a single Muslim? Have you ever reached out and gone to an Islamic center and asked “how can I help stop the hate?”
There are radicals who hate in every nation, every religion, every skyscraper and mud hovel. If you enter into a discussion calling the other side traitors and liars and creatures and the like (hi TV!) then you should expect to be loudly fu’d off stage by the sane people.
I lived in NYC for years. Still have many friends there. A few years before 9/11 my wife (a Canadian btw) and I visited NYC as a last hurrah before the child rearing years began. We arrived and left by way of the Port Authority / World Trade Center complex. As we left, I held my wife under those towers and placed my hand over my unborn son in her belly and said “these are the new cathedrals, the new monuments to science, to reason and the light”
There are radical Christians who advocate genocide of people they just don’t like, just as there are radical nutjob Islamists, Jews and probably Buddhists as well. But the vast majority of humanity just wants the same things: food, shelter, peace, opportunity for their sons and daughters.
shcb, we are all one race, the Human Race. Please stop dividing up people by skin color or whatever other criteria you alluded to above (which all sounded incredibly racist btw).
March 12th, 2007 at 10:57 am
here google! search! now sit… sit… good web2.0 company! good boy!
http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares
the criticisms of the series can be summarized via wikipedia
pretty weak criticisms imho
March 12th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Loose Change is not alone. There are many respectable people with questions. See 97 of them and their questions at: http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/
Wasn’t it announced lat in the day on Septemtber 10 /01 that $2.4 Trillion was mission from Pentagon accounts? It’s not found yet and future events buried investigation into that, I beleive.
To quote Douglas Hermann:
How to keep everyone quiet, you ask? You heard the old saying, two can keep a secret if one of them is dead? Well a thousand can keep a secret if everyone is happy and everyone is very well paid. You also heard that old saying, honor among thieves? Well why would anyone want to rat on someone else? And even if one person got shitfaced drunk and bragged about bringing down the trade towers, who would believe him. After all, we all saw the hijacked jets crashed into the Trade Towers, right? And then we all saw that fuel fires weakened the steel and brought down those same towers, right?
No one will ever catch us. Who would investigate? Hugo Chavez? We commited the perfect crime and got away with it.
But like I said at the beginning, the crime was obviously a crime to anyone who even glanced at the pictures on the TV. It was so fucking obvious it still makes me laugh. What happened was a classic diversion. The towers fell; two or three ME countries were blamed. A suitable villain was fingered.
But you have hundreds of millions in stolen gold–did Osama steal it? You have those jackpot insurance claims on a pair of architecturel white elephants, leased only months before (giving us enough time to wire them). You have fake pilots that couldn’t fly, doing maneuvers in Boeing jumbo jets that were electronically programmed not to allow pilots to fly that way. You have FBI and CIA head honchos looking the other way. I could go on and on. But isn’t that what your real CSI people should be doing–but aren’t? Isn’t that what your real detectives should be doing–but aren’t?
If a farmer finds his henhouse raided by a fox, he tracks the fox through the snow and discovers the burrow and sees the feathers and the blood. Well, you’ve seen the feathers and the blood all over the people who planned 9-11 but still you can’t seem to put the pieces of this great crime together. Why is that?
from: http://www.rense.com/general73/confess.htm
Other recommended & related works by Hermann here:
http://www.rense.com/Datapages/dhermandat.htm
these are especially good:
http://www.rense.com/general74/illog.htm
http://www.rense.com/general74/aabs.htm (don’t miss the last paragraph)
http://www.rense.com/general69/proofp.htm
March 13th, 2007 at 4:56 am
Hi guys,
Enkidu is right, I talk way too much, it’s a curse, so I’ll try and be more succinct. Sorry, Knarley, I had a half page of pleasantries about my family, and wishing yours well, guess it will have to wait. You guys pepper me with so many accusations and nonsense, I feel I have to respond to every point, this time I’ll just pick two or three at random and smack them out of the ballpark. I’m not dodging any of your issues, if you want me to respond to anything specific just ask.
Enkidu didn’t have much constructive to add, just more telling me how stupid and racist I am and how stupid Bush is, he got better grades than AlGore. My daughter is married to a black kid, no problem, he’s a little quiet, but who can get a word in edgewise with me in the room. A couple of our production workers are from Egypt, nice enough folks, always treat us to exotic foods at pot luck dinners, the girl is a little quiet, the guy likes to give me a hard time and I reciprocate. The town I live in is 40% Hispanic, and 20% Japanese, after the internment by the Roosevelt administration, they had nowhere to go, the democrats had stolen their property and belongings, so they went to work. They farmed and now are some of the richest land owners in the state, in one generation. There has been so much interracial marriage in our little town, I swear, some of the kids look like they are their own race. Everyone works here and most everyone gets along. Don’t lecture me about being a racist, conservatives don’t divide people into groups, we don’t ask for special considerations and we don’t tolerate quotas. We are pragmatic capitalists, we want to work with the most qualified people available. We don’t care what color your skin is, if you can help our team be successful welcome aboard. The racists that hate are the Islamofascists, they want to wipe Israel off the planet because of who they are not what they have done. And they want to cause us to stop supporting the Jews so they can fulfill what the Nazis couldn’t, with your unwitting help. Lennon was right, the American left are “useful idiots”.
About Iraq; more of Iraq has electricity more of the time than at any time during Sadam’s
rule. When he was in power, electricity was available at all times in Baghdad at the expense of other areas of the country sometimes towns would be without power for weeks on end. Now almost every town has power for a period of time, this has resulted in Baghdad being lit about 70% of the time. Power is more than a convenience. It is needed to run pumps to fill the town’s water supply and such, a few hours a day fills that need, helping reduce disease. The reason the utilities haven’t been restored to prewar levels is because THE ISLAMOFASCISTS KEEP BLOWING THEM UP. Gawd you people are infuriating. You look at the good guys and see bad, you ignore the bad guys and side with the European cowards. They couldn’t even handle a third rate hood like Milosivich without help.
Disproportionate responses to those attacks. Hmm, so if a guy is shooting at you with an old bolt action rifle without a front sight and you have an M4, you should drop your carbine, take out your Colt 1911 of about the same vintage and do battle? This is war, there is no disproportionate anything, you kill your enemy with whatever means are at your disposal while putting yourself in as little risk as possible.
Don’t be a fool and die for your country. Let the other sonofabitch die for his.
George S. Patton, (attributed)
US general (1885 - 1945)
“America spends most of it’s GDP on that (military spending), and spends many more times on that than the rest of the world combined”
We’ll take the easy one first. That we spend many more times than the rest of the world. In 1999-2000 the US spent the most on defense by a wide margin. However the top 29 countries below us spent 1.68 times as much combined, with a warning that China’s figures may be way off. No matter, myth busted.
This year, the US will spend 3.9% of GDP on defense even with the war, by comparison Canada usually ranks around 15th or 16th in spending, with 1.2% of GDP going to defense. The liberal government of Canada has promised to raise the current spending of 13 billion to 25 billion over the next five years. If GDP remains the same, that will 2.3%. All this research took about a half hour. I used the 2007 edition of the World Almanac, the official Canadian Military web site, and the Federation of American Scientists site.
Now what do you get for that money. Canada who has a rich and honorable military history, and has always been a faithful ally, has:
3 Iroquois class destroyers
12 Halifax class frigates
12 Patrol ships
4 diesel subs.
A partial list of American Ships and Boats
9 Nimitz class carriers (the big ones) with the George Bush due on line in the next year or two
27 Ticondoroga class cruisers
31 Spruance class destroyers
34 Arliegh Burke class destroyers, the USS Cole is one, the ship the Islamofascists bombed, with 18 more authorized.
29 Perry class frigates
61 Los Angeles fast attack subs
16 Ohio class subs, the boomers
3 Seawolf class boats. The fastest deepest diving subs we have.
I didn’t bother looking up diesel subs since they aren’t worth much in modern warfare except as a training platform. I think we are getting our money’s worth.
The percent of GDP we spend on defense has remained fairly constant since world war two. It peaked during that war at almost 40%. It has remained fairly steady around 4 to 6 percent since, with peaks of around 8 to 10% during the Korean and Viet Nam wars. It went to around 7 percent during the Reagan years and dipped to about 3% after the fall of the Soviet Empire. Myth busted.
The figure you probably saw was that we spend something over 50%. That is the percentage of discretionary funds the military uses. Of government spending, which is about 21% of GDP (that is off the top of my head), well over half of that is non-discretionary, welfare, social security, Medicare, service of the national debt etc.
Your gross exaggeration took 24 words, my well thought out and researched rebuttal took 429.
“A lie can travel half way around the world before truth can put it’s shoes on.”
So let’s recap, you have a website called lies, we’ll give you poetic license on that. When pressured, no lie from this administration can be produced, the lies become “technically not lies, but definitely deception”. I haven’t heard examples of any of these deceptions which are so “well documented” except for WMD, which I can easily debunk with another two or three pages. You worship Michael Moore, the king of creative editing. I’m given a website that defines fascism where the groups name has the word “radical” in the title, a transparent example of working from a predetermined conclusion. Arguments are a lot easier to win if you give yourself the right to redefine words. You give grossly exaggerated, easily researched statistics. You use ridiculous conspiracy theories to prop up your self-serving hatred of this administration and the American way of life. America you may love, it gives you a cushy lifestyle and a protected soap box, but then you bite the hand that feeds you when you trash everything true patriots cherish. “I support the troops, not the mission” what a bunch of crap, your ilk just doesn’t have the guts to spit on them yet, it’s still early in this war. Propping up a future citizen of Leavenworth as a hero, while sadly shaking your head because these fine young men and women are the real terrorists in your mind is just sad. And yet you sympathize with people who have stolen a religion, targeted civilians for death with roadside bombs, beheaded private citizens and journalists “live at nine”, and professed a commitment to our and our friends destruction by what ever means available.
Looks to me it’s forth quarter and ‘ole shcb is a few touchdowns ahead. I’m sure at some point you will claim victory and execute a strategic redeployment to Okinawa, after a furry of really nasty condescending name calling. You keep saying I am being led by a heartless, corrupt administration. I’ve been watching someone being led by the nose ring like a big old show bull, and it’s you.
Pray for our troops
Short Haired Country Boy
March 13th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
Well shcb you just go on believing what you have to believe to keep your conscious from eating your soul.
I will keep working to support peace. If that perspective irritates you and incites you to make silly and childish claims such as that “You worship Michael Moore,” then it is clear who is getting desperate and who is the bully.
Shcb employs typical neo-con tactics of cherry picking points to dispute and then claiming victory based on how he claims to have dealt with those points. (By the way, shcb did not source his figures so they are highly suspect.) As such, I’m not going to be responding to his posts any more - it is clear that his mind is closed and he’s looking to fight rather than to accept a more enlightened world view than can be found on a football field.
Also, sorry to everyone if in my haste some of my details were a bit off but I maintain that the essence of my theme remains true: the USA has grossly overspent on military vs. its education, health, infrastructure, and a zillion other things. Don’t take my word for it, do your own research (just be suspicious of government sources, they are about as reliable as well, a recruiter’s promise to Joshua Keyes) You might start with some independent world rankings for social indicators (e.g. education results.)
As for military spending, here’s a good source:
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp#USMilitarySpending
And here is a cut paste (if the format gets lost then refer to the link):
In Context: U.S. Military Spending Versus Rest of the World
While FY 2008 budget requests for US military spending are known, for most other countries, the most recent data is from 2005 (at time of writing). Using US spending at that time, we can compare US military spending with the rest of the world:
• The US military spending was almost two-fifths of the total.
• The US military spending was almost 7 times larger than the Chinese budget, the second largest spender.
• The US military budget was almost 29 times as large as the combined spending of the six “rogue” states (Cuba, Iran, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria) who spent $14.65 billion.
• It was more than the combined spending of the next 14 nations.
• The United States and its close allies accounted for some two thirds to three-quarters of all military spending, depending on who you count as close allies (typically NATO countries, Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan and South Korea)
• The six potential “enemies,” Russia, and China together spent $139 billion, 30% of the U.S. military budget.
Tabulated data is as follows:
Military spending in 2005 ($ Billions, and percent of total)
Source: U.S. Military Spending vs. the World, Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation, February 5, 2007
Notes:
• Figures are for latest year available, usually 2005. Expenditures are used in a few cases where official budgets are significantly lower than actual spending.
• * 2004 Figure.
• Source uses FY 2008 for US figure (and includes Iraq and Afghan spending). I have used 2005 to try and keep in line with other countries listed (but I have NOT included the Iraq and Afghan operations cost which would be another $75 billion. Other items as described above are not included either. If they are included, the gulf between US spending and others might be even wider).
• Due to rounding, some percentages may appear as zero.
If you are viewing this table on another site, please see httprg/G://www.globalissues.o eopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp for further details.
Country
Dollars (billions)
% of total
Rank
United States 420.7
43% 1
China * 62.5
6% 2
Russia * 61.9
6% 3
United Kingdom 51.1
5% 4
Japan 44.7
4% 5
France 41.6
4% 6
Germany 30.2
3% 7
India 22
2% 8
Saudi Arabia 21.3
2% 9
South Korea 20.7
2% 10
Italy 17.2
2% 11
Australia 13.2
1% 12
Brazil 13.1
1% 13
Canada 10.9
1% 14
Turkey 9.8
1% 15
Israel* 9.7
1% 16
Netherlands 9.7
1% 17
Spain 8.8
1% 18
Taiwan 8.3
1% 19
Indonesia* 7.6
1% 20
Myanmar 6.9
1% 21
Ukraine* 6
1% 22
Singapore 5.6
1% 23
Sweden 5.6
1% 24
North Korea* 5.5
1% 25
Poland 5.2
0% 26
Iran 4.9
1% 27
Norway 4.7
0% 28
Greece* 4.5
0% 29
Kuwait 4.3
0% 30
Colombia* 3.9
0% 31
Switzerland 3.8
0% 32
Pakistan 3.7
0% 33
Vietnam 3.5
0% 34
Belgium 3.4
0% 35
Source: U.S. Military Spending vs. the World, Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation, February 5, 2007
As for shcb’s world view, it is apparent that he has either been totally suckered by his government or is paid by his government to help shape public opinion. If anyone thinks I am crazy for raising the possibility that SHCB might be a junior spook rather than a simple rancher from Denver, consider this recent article:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CAR20070312&articleId=5058
it is based partly on this research:
Accuracy in the Media: Misinformation, Mistakes, and Misleading in American and Other Media / Todd Leventhal, Chief of the Counter-Information Team, U.S. Department of State; Dante Chinni, Senior Associate, Project for Excellence in Journalism (see link at end of the global research article)
Now I’m going outside to enjoy the fresh air, light and beauty that exists in my world. You have a nice day too, shcb, if that is what you want (and if you want to continue your mis-informed tirades you have my sympathy but nothing else.) Logging off, knarlyknight.
March 13th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
SHCB states: “…the Liberal government of Canada plans to increase military spending…”
Hate to break it you, SHCB, but Canada has not had a Liberal government for well over a year. Quite naturally, it is the Conservative Party that wants to increase military spending, at the expense of the social programs that make Canada the great country that it is. Recently however, Canadians have started to pressure the government to take a more aggressive effort to combat global warming and meets its Kyoto obligations, an issue that will be number one in an upcoming election.
Kudos to you though, SHCB, for praising Canada’s military efforts. People tend to forget that we are a vast geographic country of only 30 million people and our military history is quite stellar: we stand tall when attacked, we keep the peace when asked.
That is why Canada is on the front lines commanding Nato forces in Afghanistan, hunting the extremists that attacked our neighbor and friend, America. It also why we stayed the hell away from that fiasco that is now Iraq. Saddam posed zero threat to us or any of our allies.
March 13th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
The last thing I would like to mention is this:
Notice how deftly shcb diverted the discussion of this post about “Dyer on Loose Change” and kept the focus on other topics besides any substantive discussion about physics (3 buildings freefall into own footprint at a freefall speed supposedly from asymmetrical impacts / asymmetrical fires) or other substantive topics relating 911? Again, for many examples see: http://www.911scholars.org
March 13th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
A prior post of mine got lost, I’ll try to recreate it:
Now that readers have had a chance to absorb Global Research’s article on managing public perception, let’s take a look at how the USA manages the public via “Doublethink”. As an example, take the previous postings from a poor prole (who may have lived his entire life in a confused false reality created by his government and who may never even realize his own silliness.) Here are two mutually contradictory statements coming from this prole:
“The mission of the military is to kill people and break things, not provide a hand up for those who are down.” / “professionalism and compassion of our troops to the Iraqi people”
Not convinced? Let’s try a couple more contradictions from this prole on the same topic:
“Support the troops” / “You’re taking 19 year old men with adrenalin and hormones raging, putting high powered weapons in their hands and sending them to kill people and break things.”
“these fine young men and women” / “kill your enemy with whatever means are at your disposal while putting yourself in as little risk as possible”
George Orwell has that prole down cold.
Support peace.
March 13th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
“Agent Sierra, Hotel, Charlie, Bravo reporting Mr. Cheney…. Yes sir things are progressing nicely, one of them has just surrendered…. Yes sir I know how important my needling this handful of liberals is to the war effort, without it the fate of the free world is at stake…thank you sir, and don’t worry I am being extremely careful to not reveal my true identity. SHCB out.”
“Shcb employs typical neo-con tactics of cherry picking points”
Did you read what I wrote? I said I was picking a few points in the interest of brevity, and would be happy to address any other points. I hate to run the score up like this, but you are making it too easy.
Knarley, the numbers I was using for comparing countries were from 1999-2000, I was using current data for the comparison of US and Canada spending. I spot checked a few of the countries, and it looks like your numbers are in line with mine even though they are several years apart, so I agree with your research. Thank you for conceding the point.
I did give my sources, I didn’t give page numbers, but there is only one page in the world almanac that gives a countries GDP, and it’s mentioned in the index. So if my numbers agree with yours, and my numbers are highly suspect……
Personally, I don’t care about using other indicators like education. The first priority of the United States Government is the defense of this country. By the way, in this country, education is primarily a state and local responsibility, I believe federal funds are under 6% of the total cost.
I guess I too stupid to understand the contradiction of my statements, When good people kill bad people, they are honorable in their mission. What the hell is prole, spell check doesn’t like it and neither does my dictionary.
Thanks for the intro to my favorite George Orwell quote;
“To abjure violence is a luxury which a delicate few enjoy only because others stand ready to do violence in their behalf”
Sorry to hear you’re redeploying, Okinawa is nice this time of year.
Pray for our troops
SHCB
March 14th, 2007 at 5:12 am
I finally found out what Proles are, I knew the condescension was coming, you guys are so predictable. And I’m the bigot, shame on you.
The troops need our prayers, you need our distain.
March 14th, 2007 at 7:11 am
Since shcb does not know what a prole is, he has not read Nineteen Eighty Four. His favourite quote from Orwell is even contrary to Orwellian thought. SHVB is using Newspeak to attribute a quote to Orwell that Orwell never made. That is about as ironic as it gets. Again shcb gives no source, but here’s a discussion from Wiki about ORWELL MISQUOTES:
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”
Alternative: “We sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would harm us.”
Notes: allegedly said by George Orwell although there is no evidence that Orwell ever wrote or uttered either of these versions of this idea. They do bear some similarity to comments made in an essay that Orwell wrote on Rudyard Kipling, when quoting from one of his poems.
“Yes, making mock o’ uniforms that guard you while you sleep” - Rudyard Kipling (Tommy)
“I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it.” - Jack Nicholson (A Few Good Men)
Alternative: “We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.” - Winston Churchill (miscellaneous quotation, no date)
Here are a few REAL QUOTES (from Nineteen Eighty Four) that might be more enlightening:
“The proles, normally apathetic about the war, were being lashed into one of their periodical frenzies of patriotism.” Part 2, Chapter 5, pg. 150
“the consciousness of being at war, and therefore in danger, makes the handing-over of all power to a small caste seem the natural, unavoidable condition of survival.” Part 2, Chapter 9, pg. 192
“And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed—if all records told the same tale—then the lie passed into history and became truth. ‘Who controls the past’ ran the Party slogan, ‘controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.’” — Part 1, Chapter 3, pg. ”
And how’s this for an Orwellian comment about the internet??? “Even the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages was tolerant by modern standards. Part of the reason for this was that in the past no government had the power to keep its citizens under constant surveillance. The invention of print, however, made it easier to manipulate public opinion, and the film and the radio carried the process further. With the development of television, and the technical advance which made it possible to receive and transmit simultaneously on the same instrument, private life came to an end.” Part 2, Chapter 9, pg. 206-7
Regarding Loose Change: “Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.” Part 1, Chapter 7, pg. 84
——-
March 14th, 2007 at 7:12 am
The prole says “The first priority of the United States Government is the defense of this country,” yet he still supports his government after it has failed miserably, according to the “official” (and crazy) conspiracy theory where the government’s security aparatus allowed, through incompetence, for 911 to happen; then, bullied the UN into getting embroiled in Afghanistan just like the failed USSR in the 1980’s and countless countries before that; and, then it committed the ultimate Nuremburg war crime by attacking and occupying Iraq (using depleted uranium weapons!) And at what $ cost?
I’ll stop there but the bottom line is that the prole supports a US Government that has done the opposite of defending America every step of the way, (including screwing up their response to Hurricane Katrina with Blackwater thugs taking away gus from the people before releif was allowed in!) Since this government has been put in charge (by a Republican judge in Florida no less) the once great country and dream of America has now been weakened by almost any measure - potential terrorists being created by the tens of thousands in Iraq and Muslim lands, US deficits through the roof, World opinion of the US is in the sewer, their Bill of Rights is trampled (so I guess the terrorists have already won), and the prospect of nuclear war has been increased by an insane first strike doctrine, it goes on and on. But it’s okay, shcb has a good feeling about his Leader and doesn’t care about looking at indicators of social conditions like education. That about says it all.
—–
The prole resorts to mocking a reference to a website source describing the fascism he lives under because at the mere mention of the word “radical” in the title his mind closes and ceases to debate substance. America, welcome to 1984.
Regarding proles like the shcb: “Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious.” Part 1, Chapter 7, pg. 74
—–
Praying for your troops does not seem to have worked too well so far (check out the VA fiascos.) Why don’t you try a few prayers that your troops don’t kill any more innocent civilians? That might be better received, and less likely to provoke the wrath of humanity’s benevolent God.
Support Peace.
——–
March 14th, 2007 at 7:20 am
Now the knarlyknight posts are coming up, sorry for the duplication… knarly…
March 14th, 2007 at 8:52 am
As should be expected, shcb, we’re in a minority on such an extremist site as this one. I haven’t been posting lately, having grown tired of “responses” that avoid debate by attacking the person, but I visit here daily. We can laugh off the viciousness from the peace crowd, even as they claim “debate” victory, because of the irony.
I’ll be attacked similarly again for saying so, no matter, but you are right on the money in every argument, and I appreciate your thoughtful comments. Allow me to interject a personal microcosmic example of the issue of defense spending. I’ll be as brief as possible.
I was assaulted on my property in June 1995, my face smashed with a log from my own firewood pile when I ventured outdoors to quiet the barking of my two Dalmatians. Passing from the bright light of my motion-detector spotlights into darkness at the corner of the house, I never saw the first blow coming, a piece of firewood swung like a baseball bat. I fought my way out of it, then drove myself to the emergency room. I have another in a continuing series of jaw-reconstruction surgeries next Tuesday.
Last April our entire neighborhood of 5-10 acre lots was wiped out by a class 4 tornado, 1/2 mile wide, staying on the ground for 18 miles. Over the next three days and nights, every home in our neighborhood was ransacked by looters except mine. The property has been well marked since June 1995, and it is quite obvious that I will defend my property by any means necessary “No trespassing. Violators will be shot (and killed, if necessary).” My property is at the end of the sub-division, with no neighbors for a mile to the north (except those in the “Colored Cemetery” 1/4 mile behind the house, of which I am the caretaker). With the main entrance blocked by debris, looters had to enter via the dirt road to that cemetery, passing by my house enroute to the other properties.
I have spent more on home defense than any of my neighbors, and it yielded the desired effect. I still have 40 of the 120 downed trees to clear, and never work in the woods at night without firearms handy. I was an expert marksman in every venture to the firing range while in the military, and I now re-hone that skill regularly. It’s called “peace through strength,” and it works. I am not aggressive, but will defend myself, family and property as necessary.
I apply the same scenario to the more macrocosmic national situation. We were attacked repeatedly, without proper response until the 9/11 events. We have beefed up our security, and yes, it has been expensive, but I’m not concerned with Canadians who are critical of that US spending priority. Those who live in areas where they are constantly bombasted with anti-US sentiment are upset that we ignore their efforts to teach us, while citing goofy conspiracy theories from beyond our borders. Condescension? They criticize the only news channel that is not committed to a gloom and doom approach, but can’t cite a single incident or story that has not been covered by Fox News (I can, however, cite examples to the contrary with the “sky is falling” media outlets). Al Qaeda has volunteered to meet us in battle in Iraq; great, both location and opportunity. On and on and on.
I don’t care what percentage of my taxes are spent on defense; every cent is worth the expense. Much of my tax money is spent on socialist programs I don’t endorse, and those who support those measures can bite the same bullet.
March 14th, 2007 at 8:57 am
Ah, I see that we’re now quoting novels as sources.
March 14th, 2007 at 9:05 am
Another prole (shcb’s boss?) weighs in with sad examples to further turn the topic away from substance. TeacherVet, are you praying for the civilians being subjugated by America’s occupying forces, or are you praying for more of the same murder and mayhem they’ve delivered so far?
Anyone with credentials on this site (such as a PhD in Physics?) who can provide an objective review of http://www.911scholars.org? My opinion based on a fairly high background in science (University Physics courses etc.) tells me the professors at 911scholars.org are right, and they are risking a hell of a lot, and have lost a hell of a lot by not capitulating to “pressure” and coming forth with this information anyway. These scholars seem to support all (almost all?) of what Loose Change illustrates in their video, and they have totally blown out of the water any past rebuttals from these country bumpkin proles.
Support Peace.
http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
http://www.911scholars.org
http://www.911scholars.org
http://www.911scholars.org
March 14th, 2007 at 9:26 am
Q: “Are you praying for [Iraqi civilians and their safety]?”
A: Yes
I’ve read and studied the referenced propoganda at 911[professors].org. I’ve done the same with the thorough debunking of their stuff (see links provided earlier by schb). We have a choice; and I choose optimism. If that makes me a “prole,” as defined in your other novel reference, (turning the topic away from substance?) I’ll accept it from your viewpoint (outside our borders). The condescention having supplanted any efforts at rationalization, your statements have lost any credibility or validity.
March 14th, 2007 at 10:11 am
TeacherVet, you seem to be employing the same strategy to protect your property as your president has used to try to protect America from further attack.
Instead of trying to figure out why you were attacked (and your neighbours looted) and get to the root of the cause, you try to answer violence with more violence (i.e. gittin out yer gun). It doesn’t make any sense. Kind of like GWB invading Iraq because Al Qaeda members from Saudi Arabia attacked you.
We see how that strategy is paying off for America - constant fear of being attacked and more hated than before. And TeacherVet, you can’t even go out in your own backyard after dark because you are afraid!
Well if that’s how you wish to live your life, that’s your choice.
But I happen to believe that we (as in the global community) can find and correct the root causes of hate towards America, and other western states. Unfortunately, this process cannot begin until after your next federal election. GWB has just caused too much hatred and alienated too many countries.
And as a side note, when you accuse Canadians of being constantly bombarded with anti-Americanism, you are way off. We are not constantly bombarded with anti-Americanism, but we are exposed to, and enjoy, anti-Bushism. There’s a huge difference my friend and neighbour. A huge difference. Take care.
March 14th, 2007 at 11:55 am
and here are some more questions for shcb and tv:
the earth is how many years old approximately?
is the earth flat? if, no, what approximate shape is the earth?
does the sun go around the earth?
is there a magic man in the sky?
did he write a book?
if so, what was the name of this book? (so many to choose from ya know)
do you believe in evolution? (trick question!)
georgie dumbya bush, bad president or worst president ever?
do you know anyone who has sat and worked with dumbya one on one, my pet goat style?
do you know a single muslim?
what have you personally done to reduce our dependence on middle east oil (I walk a great deal more now a days)
bush delusion syndrome, that he is even remotely competent for the job, or actually doing the job?
is it possible for you to admit you were wrong?
lied to?
is it possible for you folks to not hate 60% of America?
March 14th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
enkidu, you are funny. kudos to you. My posts aren’t getting onto this site any more, maybe I’m banned. I’ll pass the torch… cheers dudes, I’ll see you later (in Leavenworth if shcb & TV continue get their way)
March 14th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
NorthernLite: Check what I wrote. Afraid to go into my back yard? Hardly, since I work on clearing the debris almost nightly. I certainly do keep a firearm handy, as much for coyotes as anything (most of them are rabid). I certainly don’t feel unsafe or afraid, knowing that I can handle any situation that might arise - even with a two-legged animal.
I have the same complete void of fear of my homeland being attacked again, so I don’t know the basis of your “constant fear” statement. Btw, Bush and Congress didn’t authorize Saddam’s removal “because al Qaeda members from Saudi Arabia attacked” us. I’m originally from The Netherlands. When I fought in Vietnam, does that mean “the Dutch” were committing the supposed atrocities there?
I appreciate the offer, but why wait until the next election to find and correct the root causes of hate toward the America. As I stated long ago on this site, I questioned my parents in the 1950s as to why most other countries hated us. I welcome the enlightenment.
March 14th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Isn’t the terror alert perpetually on “Amber”?
You carry a gun. You are scared of something.
I don’t hate you. I hate your warmongering and your ignorance.
————–
TeacherVet, said condescension earlier? Yes, that has occurred after receiving far more of the same from shcb, and worse. Worse is having SHCB issue a veiled threat about being imprisoned at Leavenworth for the crime of free speech. So according to him the principles of his country’s founding fathers should be discarded, yet earlier he refused to consider how this now applies to America:
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html
The reason given for refusing to consider this is that it has “radical” in the title link. Wrong. The word is “ratical”, and it refers to the site “The Ratville Times” that has reprinted some research. The research was first published in the magazine, Free Inquiry.
Here’s a synopsis: Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt recently wrote an article about fascism (”Fascism Anyone?,” Free Inquiry, Spring 2003, page 20). Studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile), Dr. Britt found they all had 14 elements in common. He calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The excerpt is in accordance with the magazine’s policy.
I apologize but it is difficult not to join in with lower level discourse such as condescension when dealing with the kind of prole-like replies which refuse to consider legitimate postings because it might be “radical” (sic).
—————-
March 14th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
Also, such a veiled threat about imprisonment at Leavenworth from shcb is troubling on other levels, including the (very) unlikely possibility that it might not be an idle threat. Alex Jones has compiled many such examples of jack-booted thugs (e.g. Blackwater Contractors) stomping American’s civil rights, and the world community is currently irate at the CIA’s secret prison program filled with secret detainees. These are real events, with real people.
If anyone thinks I am crazy for raising the possibility that SHCB might be a junior spook (and TeacherVet his superior) rather than the simple proles they pretend to be, consider this recent article:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CAR20070312&articleId=5058
Also, it seems that they are intentionally writing ignorant but catchy phrases and put-downs in order to appeal to more gullible readers who may be pre-programmed by society to lean towards their comforting statements that reflect their Leader’s position rather than thinking for themselves.
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For instance, calling something “goofy” does not make it so.
TeacherVet claims to have reviewed http://www.911scholars.org but, just like shcb, it is obvious that he has done no such thing.
His errors are in plain site: had he really read these sites (or had less of a prole mentality) then he’d have noticed that 911scholars.org has fully decimated ALL of the simplistic sites that shcb provided such as the popular mechanics “article”.
Here is just one such rebuttal… http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/gopm/index.html
If you want to learn more about how the corporate media is supporting the government’s conspiracy theory, look part way down the right hand side of http://www.911scholars.org and read the “Responding to…” sections.
The truth may not be convenient, but whatever the truth may be it is sure to be nothing like this:
Nineteen flight school dropouts, in a complex and well-coordinated heist combining speed and stealth with an uncanny knowledge of our nation’s security systems, commandeered four jumbo jets and flew hundreds of miles before returning to crash the planes into pre-selected targets. A flight school instructor said the men performed badly in the simplest of flight maneuvers in small Cessna airplanes. But local law enforcement officials quickly claimed the 19 hijackers could easily have performed complex maneuvers in much larger and more complex Boeing jumbo jets. Video cameras captured the ringleaders laughing and joking and a charred passport, found at the scene of the crash indicated, beyond any reasonable doubt, the guilt of the men. (From: http://www.rense.com/general74/aabs.htm )
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March 14th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
Welcome back, enkidu, and thanks for the opportunity to answer questions. shcb has already answered some of them from his own perspective, and I’ve answered most of them previously. Excuse me in advance for adding capitalization.
Q: The earth is how many years old approximately?
A: At least 4.5 billion, possibly double that.
Q: Is the earth flat?
A: No, making the (b) part of the question moot.
Q: Does the sun go around the earth?
A: No.
Q: Is there a magic man in the sky?
A: No. I don’t know where He is, but He’s not a magician anyway.
Q: Did he write a book?
A: No. Our holy books (of all religions) were written by humans.
Q: Do you believe in evolution?
A: Change over time, yes. Darwin’s theory, no.
Q: Georgie dumbya bush, bad president or worst president ever?
A: Neither; also not the best.
Q: Do you know anyone who has sat and worked with dumbya one on one, “My Pet Goat” style?
A: No, but you can view film of this horrible man committing the sin of reading that book to some elementary school kids.
Q: Do you know a single muslim?
A: Yes, spoke with one about two hours ago.
Q: What have you personally done to reduce our dependence on Middle East oil?
A: Written my congressmen to encourage drilling in Anwar and elsewhere.
Q: Bush delusion syndrome, that he is even remotely competent for the job, or actually doing the job?
A: A non-question, but 52 million voters considered him competent, and yes, he’s doing the job. He’s been forced to fight a determined enemy that seems to want our demise, while simultaneously serving as CiC in two wars.
Q: Is it possible for you to admit you were wrong?
A: Obviously yes, since I’ve done so in conversation with you on this site (to no avail).
Q: Lied to?
A: Yes; with regularity, both in the media and on this site.
Q: Is it possible for you folks to not hate 60% of America?
A: Yes, easily, although I’ve waited months for you to identify the “hate speech” on my part. Do so, and I’ll gladly reciprocate.
The last 3 questions are “right back at ya.” Any more questions?
Knarlyknight: I assure you that you haven’t been banned from this site, and I certainly don’t want you in Leavenworth for voicing an opinion. When/If the Bush gestapo breaks in your door and hauls you away, please have a surviving famiily member let us know and I will personally acknowledge and denounce Bu$hitler as such.
March 14th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
Knarlyknight: Yes, the terror alert is perpetually on “Amber.” We would be stupid to reduce our readiness further. It’s an indicator of preparedness, but certainly not fear.
NorthernLite suggested that I should have analyzed the root causes of assault and looting. I did. They didn’t even know me, or my neighbors. They wanted to steal, but knowledge of that doesn’t protect property. I have the right to bear arms for my own protection, and I exercise that right. Because of fear? You confuse fear with readiness.
I can’t answer on behalf of shcb, and he can certainly speak on his own behalf, but I almost immediately rejected the 14 points of comparison when an initial scan revealed a “patriotism bad, abortion good” stance. The stuff could have been compiled, and the same conclusions reached, by almost any Democrat in Congress. The date (2003) immediately suggested a political motive, and the revealing little “side notes” on many of the “characteristics” reinforced it - leading one to realize they are self-serving, agenda-driven opinions, not facts.
March 14th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
Thanks TV for elevating the debate, such as it is.
Thanks also for your assurance some of my posts are not being banned from the site - sounds like you have knowledge about that. Are you one of the administrators of this site or just looking in from on high?
Thanks also for supporting my right to voice an opinion, and the helpful suggestion to leave a note for my family and friends. I’ll be sure to leave a note with my attorney, although I doubt that’ll do any good considering the success of attorneys trying to help those in Guantanamo Bay prison.
Thanks also for your apparently reasoned explanation about your objections to the fascism piece… Since you don’t like that definition, perhaps you can find another one to share with us on a different thread? Perhaps you can start by indicating whether you think fascism is a bad thing or a good thing. Personally, I think it has so good things going for it, as long as it was to be run by people with conscience. Unfortunately absolute power corrupts. I’d like to see how you rationalize the experience of your country over the past 4 years (media falling lockstep into line with government 911 conspiracy and War Propaganda, Homeland security, Un-Patriot Act suspension of habeus corpus, etc., promotion of torture, concentration of Corporate Power and influence over governemtn officials, sweetheart deals to Halliburton, KBR, etc. that’s just off the top of my head I’m sure others can help you out with that list) … rationalize that with freedom and democracy as opposed to fascism. Bet you slip into Orwellian logic: gotta give up freedom for security! (Security of person is derived from the freedom from oppression, your founding father would remind you. Sorry for putting words in your mouth, just trying to help you avoid the kind of silly mistakes that shcb makes.)
——
Here’s a previously written post that didn’t make it through earlier:
March 14th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Also, such a veiled threat about imprisonment at Leavenworth from shcb is troubling on other levels, including the (very) unlikely possibility that it might not be an idle threat. Alex Jones and others have compiled from the mainstream media many such examples of jack-booted thugs (e.g. Blackwater Contractors) stomping American’s civil rights, and the world community is currently irate at the CIA’s secret prison program filled with secret detainees. These are real events, with real people.
If anyone thinks I am crazy for raising the possibility that SHCB might be a junior spook (and TeacherVet his superior) rather than the simple proles they pretend to be, consider this recent article:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CAR20070312&articleId=5058
Also, it seems that they are intentionally writing ignorant but catchy phrases and put-downs in order to appeal to more gullible readers who may be predisposed by their media biases to lean towards their comforting statements that reflect their Leader’s position rather than thinking for themselves.
—-
For instance, even if
March 14th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
For instance, even if you are sure that Larry King would agree with you, calling something “goofy” does not make it so.
TeacherVet claims to have reviewed http://www.911scholars.org but, just like shcb, it is obvious that he has done no such thing.
His errors are in plain site: had he really read these sites (or had less of a prole mentality) then he’d have noticed that 911scholars.org has fully decimated ALL of the simplistic sites that shcb provided such as the popular mechanics “article”.
Here is just one such rebuttal… http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/gopm/index.html
If you want to learn more about how the corporate media is supporting the government’s conspiracy theory, look part way down the right hand side of http://www.911scholars.org and read the “Responding to…” sections.
The truth may not be convenient, but whatever the truth may be it is sure to be nothing like this:
Nineteen flight school dropouts, in a complex and well-coordinated heist combining speed and stealth with an uncanny knowledge of our nation’s security systems, commandeered four jumbo jets and flew hundreds of miles before returning to crash the planes into pre-selected targets. A flight school instructor said the men performed badly in the simplest of flight maneuvers in small Cessna airplanes. But local law enforcement officials quickly claimed the 19 hijackers could easily have performed complex maneuvers in much larger and more complex Boeing jumbo jets. Video cameras captured the ringleaders laughing and joking and a charred passport, found at the scene of the crash indicated, beyond any reasonable doubt, the guilt of the men. (From: http://www.rense.com/general74/aabs.htm )
—–
TeacherVet agrees to pray for the innocent civilians subjugated by American troops occupying their country (or something similar). Thank you for that. I will pray that all soldiers get home safe and that soon they recognize the error of killing and destruction and in time come to see the divine beauty of forgiveness and peace.
March 14th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
The thing about posts getting on or not getting on is this: There’s some logic on the site that quarantines comments in the “moderation queue” if the person posting them has never had a comment approved, or if the post contains more than 3 (I think) web links. The idea is to keep comment spammers from polluting the site with links to their porn/Viagra/whatever sites.
I try to keep up with the moderation queue, but sometimes (like today, when I was at work), stuff can sit there for a while before I get to it.
I’ve got fairly lax standards about participation in the discussions. It’s very, very rare for me to actually delete a comment.
March 14th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
Thanks jbc, I understand. If I have flooded your queue, I apologize, it’s just that from my end it looks like the post didn’t get through so I submitted it again. Now I know better. Sounds like you’ve got it well managed and a little moderation is a good thing.
—-
Last of the lost post from me, still in response to TV:
TeacherVet chooses optimism, and that is great! The world needs far more of that. If America had shown just a little bit of optimism instead of paranoid fears (okay, 911 was scary, but that was the intention no matter who did it and you Americans fell right into the trap set by the terrorists (be they Arab or PNAC folks) and surrendered to your fear and need for immediate revenge instead of justice then we wouldn’t have the nightmare that is now unfolding in Iraq. Perhaps Americans can now show a little optimism for the sake of the people in Iran? http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
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WTC 1,2 and 7, the biggest crime scenes in American history (that I know of) were swept clean post haste under the highest security imaginable, and that alone stinks to high heaven. http://www.rense.com:80/general74/illog.htm
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Question authority: http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares
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Support Peace.
http://www.peace.ca/
March 15th, 2007 at 12:00 am
TeacherVet mocks me for quoting from Novels. Hey, TeacherVet, Leave Them Kids Alone! References to Orwell and fascism are in vogue today - look at this item just now published by a former “Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review”:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts199.html
March 15th, 2007 at 12:01 am
TV suggests the fascism analogy is wrong, well I’m sure TV has a perfectly reasonable explanation “… why tens of thousands of protestors have poured out onto the streets burning American flags, waving posters of a Hitler-mustachioed Bush…”
Full explanation at: http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_1846.shtml
March 15th, 2007 at 12:03 am
and back to the real topic relating to Gwyn Dyer`s comments, this item supports Loose Change from the perspective of a recent investigation into WTC insurance disputes about the collapsing WTC building number 7:
… the State Department, … posted a response from Silverstein’s spokesperson Dara McQuillan to the “pull it” saga.
The statement read:
… As noted above, when Mr. Silverstein was recounting these events for a television documentary he stated, “I said, you know, we’ve had such terrible loss of life. Maybe the smartest thing to do is to pull it.” Mr. McQuillan has stated that by “it,” Mr. Silverstein meant the contingent of firefighters remaining in the building.
The insurmountable problem with this explanation of Silverstein’s statement is that there were no firefighters inside WTC 7.
Dr. Shyam Sunder, of the National Institutes of Standards and Technology (NIST), which investigated the collapse of WTC 7, is quoted in Popular Mechanics (9/11: Debunking the Myths, March, 2005) as saying: “There was no firefighting in WTC 7.”
The FEMA report on the collapses, from May, 2002, also says about the WTC 7 collapse: “no manual firefighting operations were taken by FDNY.”
And an article by James Glanz in the New York Times on November 29, 2001 says about WTC 7: “By 11:30 a.m., the fire commander in charge of that area, Assistant Chief Frank Fellini, ordered firefighters away from it for safety reasons.”
Silverstein’s explanation, after two years of stonewalling, that “pull it” meant to withdraw the firefighters is a lie. There were no firefighters in the building for hours before the building’s collapse.
Furthermore, even if he did mean “pull the firefighters” then why did he say “pull it”, with no reference to anything other than the building? Consider also the timing: “they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse.” Could it really be possible that some (nonexistent) fire brigade was removed from the building and just at that moment (”then”) the building collapsed? Is there really any doubt here about what Silverstein meant?
The full story is at:
http://www.infowars.net/articles/march2007/140307Silverstein.htm
March 15th, 2007 at 5:03 am
Wow, this is great, anyone else notice when TeacherVet or I are in a thread the comments go to double digits and when ya’ll are just patting each other in the back they seldom go over a half dozen. The same thing happens on right wing sites by the way.
Teach, welcome to the fray, and thank you for your service in Viet Nam, I was a couple years too young to be involved, and don’t know if I would have had to courage to join if I was the right age. I studied this site before I jumped in and saw some of your posts, it was apparent you were outnumbered about 20 to 1. I figured I would join in, twenty to two is about right, remember we have the guns. That ought to get ‘em goin’.
NorthernLite, you are absolutely correct, I should have put that sentence in quotes, it was a paraphrase of one of the sites I was getting the information from, I don’t remember which, and it is too minor a point to retrace my steps. Please accept my apologies. I also appreciate your countries help in Afghanistan, if the governments and people of our allies don’t approve of our involvement in Iraq and soon to be Iran, but believe in our quest to fight terrorism, I would have a lot of respect for them if they were to take over in places like Afghanistan, Darfur, maybe putting military pressure on Pakistan, it looks like Osama may be hiding there, or just take over the hunt for Osama. that kind of thing. It would free up our boys and maintain your scruples while providing a very useful service. Knarley, you too are correct, I misread the website name, please accept my apologies as well, it doesn’t change my opinion of the piece but I was wrong. There, that should also clear up the question of whether I have ever admitted I was wrong.
Trying to wade through all these posts was a daunting task, but I think if I lump all the references to my/our stupidity and second class citizenship in one reference, it will chop the job down about 90%. I will wear the moniker of prole with pride. Please, please continue to make references to my stupidity as many times and as viciously as possible, you can’t believe how much it helps our cause. Sure it hurts and sure I get angry, but you grit your teeth and take one for the team. One thing I never did when Clinton was president was underestimate his intelligence. Underestimating your foe will lead to your defeat every time. I know Teach is old enough to remember Watergate, I don’t know if the rest of you are, but Sam Irwin was a likable senator from North Carolina with a thick southern draw and a penchant for a down home comparisons, “well, I don’t know what you call it here in the city, but back home we’d get a shovel and a wheel barrow and fertilize the garden with it” that kind of thing. Since he was going after Nixon, the press and the libs loved the man, saying how he was possibly the most intelligent man on the panel, that he was using his down home charm to lull the witness into complacency, and maybe he was. Point is, he was the last redneck the libs have ever thought had more than a mid 50 IQ, and I know atleast a couple of us get into the high 60’s.
Now on to Orwell, I have always heard that quote attributed to George, if he didn’t say it, oh well, I still like the quote. And I haven’t read anything written by Orwell, but this discussion prompted me to read a little about him at lunch today. On Wikipedia, there, that is my reference, I’m not going to leave a link, look it up yourself. It seams that indeed he was quite a lefty, and a firm believer in socialism. He was also quite a man of action, it seems he fought in the Spanish civil war in 1936, Orwell was even shot in the neck, nearly killing him, during a battle. He left the ILP during WW II (he supported the conflict) because he thought they were too pacifistic. So while he was certainly a devoted democratic socialist, I don’t see why this quote would be out of character. Another 10 minutes of research.
I was listening to Randy Rhodes a couple nights in a row on my way home a while back, and on the first night she was saying we should withdraw from Iraq immediately because we had completed all our objectives, the next night she said that Iraq was a total failure. Now I’m just a dumb farm kid from Kansas, but how can both statements be true, maybe you guys with your superior intelligence can enlighten me. That should keep ‘em out of the bars for a few hours Teach.
I haven’t heard of anyone in particular that has had their civil rights trampled on, have you? Sure some folks may have been inconvenienced by being questioned down at the station for a few hours, but it seems the government has pretty much gone after the right people, vigilance is or course prudent when dealing with any government. One last piece of explanation of government spending, of course education, welfare in moderation, road construction, statues built to honor people more important than me, parks, conservation, and research all have a place at the budget table, defense is simply at the head of the table, if the country falls, everything else is academic. Especially since this war is costing a whopping 1% of GDP. Perspective gentlemen, perspective.
I’m working my way down the list. NL, you are right we need to find a way to correct the root cause of this conflict, ultimately it will be capitalism and women’s rights, as I’ve explained previously, we have some new people now so if you would like me to go into more detail ask. In the meantime Teach is right. I don’t care what their problem is when they are trying to kill me. When the dam starts to leak, you don’t fix it properly at first, you pile sandbags in the gap until the rain stops, then you thoughtfully and properly rebuild it. We should and are doing the long term and short term work at the same time, however, some of the long term work can’t begin until the violence is slowed to a certain point.
It’s getting late so I’m going to have finish, Knarly, you need to clean out your ears boy, you don’t read very well, I don’t want to send you to prison for speaking your mind, where did you get that idea, I don’t want to send Mr. Keyes to prison for speaking his mind either, I want him to be a resident of Kansas because he deserted his post, in an all volunteer army. Even with the draft we make concessions for people opposed on moral or religious grounds, there are plenty of jobs in the military behind the lines and even in this country. Or he could have joined the navy if he didn’t want to be a grunt. Many options.
Good to have you Teach, I had them outgunned, but they had me outmanned, I hope your long recovery goes well. I certainly agree with you on self defense, we have 5 German Shepherds that sleep on or next to our bed at night, we don’t even lock our doors. There is also a commando knife under my mattress and a shotgun close. No fear, just confidence. The response time for help to arrive is in the seconds.
We’ll discuss fascism and Katrina tomorrow night unless something better comes up.
Shcb, trole first class (ret) signing off
March 15th, 2007 at 6:29 am
kk, perhaps if you repeat yourself often enough……
You seem to doubt that I’ve read the data on your provided links simply because I don’t buy into the propoganda. You’re wrong, but “buy away” if you wish.
Yes, I doubt the applicability of a novel written almost 60 years ago to any real-life situation in the 21st century. Orwell was a great novelist; period. Douglas Herman is a great novelist; period. They were/are authors, not prophets. I also won’t buy into a comparison of Stephen King’s “The Stand”, any of Shakespeare’s works, or “Chicken Little” with today’s world situation. It might make for interesting study, and certainly pleasurable reading, but would supply no realistic application or revelations.
As for the redundant links to 911scholars: I don’t share your apparent fascination with those professors who chose to self-enhance their credibility by calling themselves scholars. They are professors, and I choose to apply the literal definition: They profess their beliefs, as founded on apparent factual data. I notice that most of the original “might have, could have, may have, possible, etc” language have been replaced with terms of greater certainty in the rebuttals to PM’s theories; interesting indeed.
With no absolute, concrete proof on either “side,” we are provided two contrary options in which to believe: the 911Truth stuff or the “official version” stuff. I choose one, you choose the other. If either is ever proven without question, with no further debunking possibilities, I suspect that each of us is open-minded enough to agree with the conclusion. Until then, we simply have a choice. The conspiracy theories have been largely rejected in the US, while being largely accepted in other places. Fine.
Similarly to the reliance on novelistic citations, I won’t rely on links to agenda-driven media pundits for “proof” of anything. For example, Online Journal’s Mike Whitney, in your provided link, states: “The two men are polar opposites. While the Bush persona depends on a talented public relations team that casts him as a one-part Bible-beating preacher and one-part plain-talking cowpoke, Chavez is unaffected and straightforward. His warm and gregarious manner has earned him friends around the world and strengthened support for his redistributive programs.” His lack of objectivity is blatantly evident, so his credibility as a “reporter” is zero; his support of Chavez-style socialism is rejected, thus his analysis is of no consequence.
You cite references to Orwell and fascism because they are “in vogue today.” That pretty much says it all, and I don’t have an “in vogue” mentality. I don’t care what “everybody else is doing” if I consider it to be wrong. As a kid, if I desired a sharp pain on my backside (and some parental sermonizing) I would use the phrase “But everybody does it!” to justify my inappropriate behavior.
Btw, there was another great “conspiratorial crime” suspected in American history that was never solved. John Wilkes Booth, according to the official account, killed Lincoln, then his remains were found in a burned barn into which he was chased. He was supposedly buried at the Green Mount Cemetery in Baltimore, MD.
Later, according to the Franklin Co., TN Marriage Book, 1:375: John W. Booth was married to Louisa J. Payne, license issued 24 Feb. 1872, wedding the next day. The groom was said to be the most handsome, well-spoken man in the county. Was there a conspiracy within Lincoln’s cabinet? Did John Wilkes Booth get away and start a new life in this county that was the first to succeed when the war began? How could he have possibly had a public life using his own name and be able to escape the notice of the bushwhackers and the Provost Marshall’s men? Either the authorities were convinced that Booth had died in the fire at Richard Garrett’s tobacco barn or it was one of the biggest cover-ups by the United States government every known (until now).
Louisa and John W. lived on the mountain at Sewanee, TN. Booth, an acknowledged ladies’ man, left Louisa and went to Memphis, TN. Their daughter, Laura Ida Elizabeth Booth, was born after John had gone. It is thought that he lived in Texas under the assumed name of John St. Helen and died in 1903 in Enid, OK while using the alias David E. George. American researchers have failed to prove a US government conspiracy, but perhaps outsiders possess more reliable resources. (Presented in jest; I really have no burning desire to solve the conspiracy theory)
March 15th, 2007 at 7:10 am
This is too easy. E.g. There are many examples of rights being trampled upon in America. I’d start with the elections in Ohio with the 10 hour lineups to vote in poor districts vs. short or no line-ups in republican districts (yeah, I know its a state thing - just like education (except Bush’s “no child left behind (a recruiter)” act would suggest otherwise - but that’s part of the point - structural problems like that make the system easy to divide and conquor, and difficult to fix because reform has to take place at so many ppoints that it becomes overly daunting except to all but the Federal government.) Also, your responses show an arrogance akin to the German peoples in 1939 or 40, so cocksure were they about their Nation’s right to dictate to others. Maybe there are so many posts is because so many people are aghast and offended by your arrogance.
Again, your responses are long on opinion and short on substance. Again, you display ignorance with statments like Orwell and Shakespeare are entertaining but have no relevance. The relevance is that human greed and desires have remained quite unevolved over the centuries and eons, the world appears different becaus technology and social / government constructs have grown and morphed. Einstein and Project Manhattan members had similar laments and fears regarding their contribution to giving en-evolved humans A bombs that could destroy the planet.
The difference between the Lincoln conspiracy and 911 is that the official 911 conspiracy of 19 Arabs coordinated by Dr. Evil in Afghanistan is that it requires suspension of laws of physics and ignoring vast amounts of evidence, and ignorance of HUNDREDS of unanswered questions. Here are a few:
We want truthful answers to questions such as:
Why were standard operating procedures for dealing with hijacked airliners not followed that day?
Why were the extensive missile batteries and air defenses reportedly deployed around the Pentagon not activated during the attack?
Why did the Secret Service allow Bush to complete his elementary school visit, apparently unconcerned about his safety or that of the schoolchildren?
Why hasn’t a single person been fired, penalized, or reprimanded for the gross incompetence we witnessed that day?
Why haven’t authorities in the U.S. and abroad published the results of multiple investigations into trading that strongly suggested foreknowledge of specific details of the 9/11 attacks, resulting in tens of millions of dollars of traceable gains?
Why has Sibel Edmonds, a former FBI translator who claims to have knowledge of advance warnings, been publicly silenced with a gag order requested by Attorney General Ashcroft and granted by a Bush-appointed judge?
How could Flight 77, which reportedly hit the Pentagon, have flown back towards Washington D.C. for 40 minutes without being detected by the FAA’s radar or the even superior radar possessed by the US military?
How were the FBI and CIA able to release the names and photos of the alleged hijackers within hours, as well as to visit houses, restaurants, and flight schools they were known to frequent?
What happened to the over 20 documented warnings given our government by 14 foreign intelligence agencies or heads of state?
Why did the Bush administration cover up the fact that the head of the Pakistani intelligence agency was in Washington the week of 9/11 and reportedly had $100,000 wired to Mohamed Atta, considered the ringleader of the hijackers?
Why did the 911 Commission fail to address most of the questions posed by the families of the victims, in addition to almost all of the questions posed here?
Why was Philip Zelikow chosen to be the Executive Director of the ostensibly independent 911 Commission although he had co-authored a book with Condoleezza Rice?
Out of time, got to go. Don’t invade any more countries in my absence please.
Pray for peace.
March 15th, 2007 at 8:02 am
“This is too easy”…. to do what? Your examples cite: rights that have been trampled in America, voting problems, and a vague reference to education, but I’ve not discussed those areas with you (until now). An easy rebuttal, or an easy distraction? You’ve tried to lead us into those areas before, so I’ll bite.
Long lines at US voting precincts are of concern to you? Simple answer: If there are insufficient numbers of voting machines in Democrat precincts, it’s because the Democrats in charge of that precinct failed to order enough machines. You’ve been watching the news channels that only give one side of the story again. Do you have any problem with the ACORN activities in East St. Louis; vote-buying, multiple registrations, etc.? I’m actually thankful for the long lines there - the busses were unable to take their paid voters to all of the precincts in which each voter had registered. Do we have problems? Yes - within both parties.
As a teacher, I have more familiarity with nclb than I wish to discuss fully. It was a bi-partisan effort, with every wish of the Democrats satisfied, and is a failure. I know of no mention of “recruiters” in the nclb act, but you might have different sources.
Yes, my responses are long on opinion, but those opinions have been formed from substance. I have no idea what “your Nation’s right to dictate to others” means. Did we dictate something to Canadians, with my support, and I missed it? Another distraction?
Lots of questions, some of them not based on pure speculation, and I also want answers to lots of questions. Maybe we’ll find those answers in Orwell, Herman, Shakespeare or “Chicken Little”, but I doubt it.
March 15th, 2007 at 10:03 am
hmmm - previous posting blocked? sent to the bit bucket? pbcak?
link below
I know how much you enjoy those Mann Coulter screeds on your book shelf tv.
He was the speaker to introduce Mitt (Magic Underpants) Romney at CPAC this year and had the usual respectful, reasoned, intelligent things to say (end sarcasm)