Iraq War Dead for June, 2006

I’m late again; sorry about that. It’s not due to a lack of interest, but rather a lack of time. In light of the ongoing bloodshed in Lebanon, too, I guess I’ve been feeling unusually disheartened about the progress of Bush’s policies for bringing peace and democracy to the Middle East.

In any event, here are the updated graphs of US war deaths in Iraq for June.

As always, I’m comparing the military casualties to those from the Vietnam war at a similar point in each war’s political lifetime (which some have charged is misleading; see disclaimer below). The data come from the advanced search tool at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund site, and from Lunaville’s page on Iraq coalition casualties. The figures are for the number of US dead per month, without regard to whether the deaths were combat-related.

The first graph shows the first 40 months of the comparison. (Click on any image for a larger version.)

Next, the chart that gives the US death toll for the entire Vietnam war:

Disclaimer: I’ve been accused of comparing apples to oranges in these graphs. For the record, here’s what I am not arguing:

  • I’m not saying that Iraq is somehow deadlier per soldier-on-the-ground than Vietnam. For both wars, the number of fatalities in any given month tracks pretty closely with the number of troops deployed (along with the intensity of the combat operations being conducted). There are more troops in Iraq today than were in Vietnam during the “corresponding” parts of the graphs. Similarly, for later years in Vietnam, when the monthly death toll exceeded the current Iraq numbers, there were many more troops in place.
  • I am not saying that Iraq is somehow “worse” than Vietnam. I include the first graph mainly because I wanted a zoomed-in view of the Iraq data. And I include the second graph, which shows the entire span of the Vietnam war, because I want to be clear about what the data show about overall death tolls — where any rational assessment would have to conclude that, at least so far, Iraq has been far less significant (at least in terms of US combat fatalities) than Vietnam.

I was just curious how the “death profile” of the two wars compared, and how those deaths played out in terms of their political impact inside the US. For that reason, I chose as the starting point for each graph the first fatality that a US president acknowledged (belatedly, in the case of the Vietnam graph, since US involvement in the war “began” under Kennedy, but the acknowledgement was made only later by Johnson) as having resulted from the war in question.

As ever, you are free to draw your own conclusions. And for that matter, you’re free to draw your own graphs, if you have a way of presenting the information that you believe would be better. In that case, feel free to post a comment with a URL to your own version. Thanks.

71 Responses to “Iraq War Dead for June, 2006”

  1. John F Says:

    You know, there isn’t any evidence this is going to happen but isn’t it strangely ironic that there may just be an escalation in year four? I mean, attacks against civislians are up, there is more instability in the region. The only difference now is that our military is entirely voluntary and we don’t have the manpower to deal with escalation.

  2. TeacherVet Says:

    You’re right; there is no evidence of an impending escalation. In fact, with troop casualties seeming to steadily decrease, some factors seem to indicate the opposite. With one in about every 2,500 Iraqis being involved in the insurgency, I suspect that our manpower is sufficient.

    For those who seek political leverage/opportunities from troop deaths, I certainly hope their prayers for increased casualties aren’t answered.

    One of our local Democrat bloggers recently posted an article in which he stated his hope for another Gander-type incident with a large body count. I could at least have respected the rare demonstration of honesty from a Democrat – if he hadn’t written an article a week earlier in which he expressed his “support for the troops.”

  3. TeacherVet Says:

    The ongoing bloodshed is only in Lebanon?

    The political lifetime of our conflict with Iraq began in March 2003?

  4. TeacherVet Says:

    jbc, are the July statistics available yet?

  5. treehugger Says:

    TecherVet,

    Who do you think is hoping for our troops to die to use it for political advantage?

    You musy be refering to a technique that is often employed by the GOP; that is whenever there’s a debate about national security, the GOP tries to imply that the DNC is “the party of al qaeda”, or that if a Democrat is elected, we will be “surely attacked again”.

    Now there’s some cheap political shots.

    Thank god they have such a shitty record when it comes to security that people are starting to see through their BS, just in time I might add.

  6. treehugger Says:

    The first reaction, of course, of Hezbollah and its supporters is to declare victory. I guess I would have done the same thing if I were them,” Bush said.

    George W Bush – August 18 2006

    I guess that explains the Mission Accomplished rationale, and here we are some 3.5 years later, caught in the middle of a bloddy cival war.

  7. TeacherVet Says:

    Actually, treehugger, all I did was ask whether the July statistics were available for comparison yet.

    Who do (I) think is hoping for our troops to die to use it for political advantage? Obviously, those in the anti-war/anti-Bush/anti-U.S./anti-defense (the names are interchangeable) movement.

  8. treehugger Says:

    Actually, most people in the “anti-war/anti-Bush” crowd wouldn’t “pray” for US troops deaths beacuse most of these people don’t believe in religion like the crazy folks that are the causes of all this shit. (Bin Laden, Bush etc)

    I can also tell you that July 2006 saw the most Iraqi deaths since the start of this fiasco.

    “Stay the course.”

  9. enkidu Says:

    Sigh – it would seem to be impossible to argue with a fanatic
    I anticipate that TV will turn this around to my being the frothy fanatic, but everywhere you go, there you are…

    Mr Treasonous Veterinarian can’t admit his world view is shrinking rapidly to the worst of the rethugs, reprobates and retards (and yeah, redneck arseholes like George “Macaca” Allen, you know Presidential hopeful… not-so-closet-racist… with a noose and a rebel flag in his office… that jerk).

    TV clings tanaciously to his “We found teh WMDz!!!!” bullshit even tho there isn’t a shred of evidence of the ginormous stockpiles that evil Saddam bin Laden feller had hidden away. 3 1/2 years of searching and all we can dig up are a few hundred artillery shells forgotten since the Iran/Iraq war. No more dangerous than drinking Texas tap water. Whoop-d-f***ing-do.

    TV parrots the GOP spewing point memo “Defeatocrats are evil and cheer every US casualty!” party line tho it further divides our nation when we should all be coming together to shoulder the burdens of the future. His divisive and hate filled spew is sad and sick, but what do you expect from a crank who thinks that Crystal Light is healthy fuel for true Patriots?

    Hey TV! btw… how is the search for Osama going?
    The anthrax killer? (US made anthrax hmmm mmm, so curious eh?)
    And how is the Freedom™®© and Democracy™®© movement in the Middle East thing going? What? Elections in the Palestinian territories (hello Hamas) and in Lebanon (hello Hizb’allah). uh, err, good job, bushie?

    I just finished “Team of Rivals” an excellent book about Lincoln and his cabinet. Lincoln well deserves the praise and reverance with which future generations will say the hallowed name of Lincoln (the last decent Republican). Shrub will deserve the scorn of all who come after him. What a complete, utter and magnificent failure.

    Worst.
    Preznit.
    Ever.

  10. TeacherVet Says:

    Wow, enkidu, what an intelligent post (/sarc). I asked about the latest casualty figures, and you read into it all that stuff in your little rant? Is it drugs? A drunken stupor? Delusion? Effects of simple-minded hatred? It isn’t necessary for me to allude to you as a frothy fanatic – you provide confirmation without my help. You’ve got serious problems.

    btw, in what way does bin Laden pose a threat? What has he managed to do since the daisy-cutter slammed the door on his cave a few years ago except make some silly audio tapes to appeal to the “anti-war” crowd?

    Every time I read such evasive, delusional garbage I’m increasingly thankful that the supporters of old stone-faced, robotic John “If I Was President” F’n Kerry lost the last election. You’re concerned about our nation being divided? That’s funny.

    The question about the July casualty figures still stands, so I suppose I’m still being a fanatic.

  11. enkidu Says:

    do you even recall writing this garbage?

    “or those who seek political leverage/opportunities from troop deaths, I certainly hope their prayers for increased casualties aren’t answered.

    One of our local Democrat bloggers recently posted an article in which he stated his hope for another Gander-type incident with a large body count. I could at least have respected the rare demonstration of honesty from a Democrat – if he hadn’t written an article a week earlier in which he expressed his “support for the troops.” -endquote-

    So let me see, accusing Democrats of praying for US casualties is all logic and reason and beyond ‘debate’, yet enumerating (in a snarky tongue in cheek bitchslap) your many psychotic pronouncements as well as your Führer’s many foibles and failures is “evasive, delusional”? O… K…

    You may recall that Osama bin Laden planned and provided funding for the 9/11 attacks? Or perhaps you have him confused with Saddam Hussien (Don von Rumsfeld’s bosom buddy)? War on Terra? Tora Bora? Hello?

    I don’t visit LIES.com much anymore as John seems to be too busy to write much (plus the flood of lies is growing to Katrina proportions – oops sorry to list yet another Bush failure – not). Yet it is comforting to note that you are just as crazy, angry, vicious and stupid as ever.

    I wonder how many times a day you visit here, mashing down the refresh button over and over and over, the sweat gleaming off your brow as you methodically clean and oil your assault rifle all the while muttering crazy shit about when open season on LIEberals starts.

    I look forward to your Christmas Eve screed. Sure to be a doozy this year! It will be a challenge to top last year’s insanity (but I know you are up to it).

  12. TeacherVet Says:

    enkidu, you can stop wondering. I visit this site less than once a day on average, never mashing down the refresh button, without a sweaty brow, owning no assault rifle. You are delusional (if you truly believe what you write), and your manhood/adulthood is certainly in question.

    Interestingly, John seems to have become “too busy to write much” at a very convenient time in the comparative analysis of troop deaths in Vietnam and Iraq, with the molehill finally reaching the mountain as the corresponding Vietnam timeline finally reaches a wartime status.

    Yes, I gave an example of a Democrat blogger displaying enough honesty to express his wish for a greater number of troop casualties. If you find that to be a psychotic pronouncement on my part – considering the value of your opinion – so be it.

    No, I don’t have OBL confused with Saddam, who simply hosted terrorists and financed their activities – but both have been neutralized. Your sick mind has been so twisted with hatred and propoganda that you can’t possibly comprehend reality. You are a pitiful creature.

    The question about last month’s comparative statistics remains unanswered – indicating that I am still crazy, angry, vicious and stupid? Grow up, little guy.

  13. Sven Says:

    So, TV. You see John’s “too busy to write much” as some kinda gotcha moment and victory for yourself? Sorry, I dont see it.

    By some counts, over 40,000 civilians have been killed so far since our invasion. Iraq is in the middle of a civil war, with Sunni killing Shia, and vice versa. Things are so out of hand, that our government has recently called back Marine reserves. My neighbors who have already served in Iraq are now going back. There is no plan for our troops to leave any time in the near future. The death toll is rising everyday, and things seem to be getting worse, not better.

    “Both have been neutralized.” Huh? OBL is still free. Terrorism is on the rise around the globe. Airlines are so paranoid these days, seems one makes an emergency landing every day. Please explain how Osama has been neutralized, as I dont see it. He’s now allowed to hide out in Pakistan, where he seems to have the government under his thumb. Our military is not permited to go there. Nearly five years after September 11th, 2001 he remains at large. As our president has said, Bush doesnt think about him much, and has no idea where he is. To me this is a huge victory for the terrorists. I find it very disappointing that Bush would “cut and run” in the hunt for Osama.

  14. enkidu Says:

    MacacaTV! brilliant! wow! pretty darn nutty

    btw TV, since you seem to be too nucking futs to actually use your brain: the site jbc gets those numbers from has US casualties for June 06 at 61 (jbc’s chart says 23 or so? wtf?) July at 43 and August (not quite over) at 61. Iraqi civil war casualties number in the thousands per month btw.

    So do you think there is any likelyhood that the evil Demoncrat who lusts after US casualties might be, I dunno, a rethuglican troll just throwing you a bone? Because I don’t know anyone who wants our boys (and girls) to die. And I live in one of the most liberal (ooops LIEberal!) places on Earth (thank God!)

    While 62% of Americans think this war is a mistake, you stand on your shrinking island of intolerance and hatred with your fellow rednecks, racists, greedmongers, warmongers and general dipshits. Oh and I forgot religious nutjobs. Soon it will be you and the 20% of Uhmerkins! that think the sun goes around the Earth, then it’ll be you and the 10% who think the Earth is flat (and made in a wink 6 thousand years ago – poof!)

    I love the statesman-like ‘pitiful creature’ and ‘little guy’, I suggest you good ol boys start calling each other Macaca! Make it a badge of pride.

    Looking forward to your Christmas Eve rant.
    I know you are saving up the vitriol for a real purging.
    You go girl!

  15. TeacherVet Says:

    Ya gotta love it! I repeated my request the July numbers again, and some nut-case again uses sarcastic garbage to avoid a response.

    jbc has always given the sources of his casualty figures for Vietnam and Iraq, and I’m well aware of those numbers, but simply urged him to show evidence of the intellectual honesty necessary to continue posting the graph. I strongly suspect that it is not a busy schedule that has caused a reluctance to post the comparative data, but that his curiosity of the comparison has abated as the data threatens to disprove his obvious reason for posting it.

    enkidu, I know your faith in polling data is secure, but from what poll do you derive that 10% think the Earth is flat? And that 20% think the sun goes around the Earth? I’ve never encountered anyone who believes either premise. That poll could be the same one that cites only 38% of Americans who support the war effort, indicating that all results of the poll are false – as usual.

    I do think of you as an immature, pitiful little creature if you are unwilling to accept others who have opinions that differ from your own. I’m intolerant? You’re making me laugh as I read your rambling rant – something about the “pot calling the kettle black.”

    Yes, I’m one of the “religious nutjobs” (so labeled by the oh-so-tolerant enkidu) who believes that life has meaning, that behavior merits appropriate consequences, and that I will see my father again – without pain – in a better place. Religion offers a lasting hope that is not available through any other means, and I was blessed with parents who led me down that path. If that is somehow threatening to you, I offer my sincere apologies.

  16. jbc Says:

    Heh. If I weren’t so busy, I’d be able to supply proof enough of a busy schedule even for _you_, TV.

    Anyway, when I do actually update the numbers in a couple of days, are you going to revise your theory to account for the newly discordant data? We’ll see how your own intellectual honesty holds up.

  17. enkidu Says:

    not only are you a intolerant troll, but you can’t read!
    it is sickening to think you might actually be a teacher (shudders – the horror!)

    allow me to repeat myself gents:
    “the site jbc gets those numbers from has US casualties for June 06 at 61 (jbc’s chart says 23 or so? wtf?) July at 43 and August (not quite over) at 61.”

    As to the % of fucking morons (ooops bush supporters) who think the sun goes around the earth: how about the National Science Foundation? Oh they used science to learn about reality? Pshaw! Only one book worth reading, eh TV?

    “According to an NSF survey done in 2001, 25% of Americans think the sun goes around the earth.” Well waddaya know? It is actually 25% idiots.

    If a poll (or any data/facts for that matter) doesn’t support your forgone conclusion it must be a lie… wow Simply amazing the depths of moral and intellectual dishonesty bushco supporters will sink to (swiftboats ahoy! etc etc)

    google.com
    you might try it some time

  18. TeacherVet Says:

    Sorry if my request upset you, jbc, but it wouldn’t seem to require much time to plug two numbers into a graph template – unless, of course, the disclaimers are to be adjusted significantly to explain the coming, sudden surge of Vietnam casualties when we finally sent in combat troops. My intellectual honesty will surprise you.

    enkidu, allow me to repeat myself: “jbc has always given the sources of his casualty figures for Vietnam and Iraq, and I’m well aware of those numbers….” Apparently I am “a (sic) intolerant troll” who can read!

    “According to an NSF survey [read poll] done in 2001, 25% of Americans think the sun goes around the Earth.” Sounds like the poll must have been taken exclusively on the streets of NYC, certainly not in any of my school’s science classes, if the survey actually took place at all, and makes one wonder what the NSF was trying to sell. Of course, the results will be accepted without question; after all, it is …. a poll. You said 20% – the NSF said 25% …. applying today’s liberal definition of a “lie,” does that mean that you intentionally misled?

    You can’t insult me with a swiftboat reference, since I gave a healthy donation to help support the efforts of those vets. Their book is on the shelf next to my computer, carefully placed between books by Michael Moore and Al Franken.

    Now, preach some more tenets of tolerance. Anyone who disagrees with you is a religious nutjob, rethuglican troll, redneck, racist, greedmonger, warmonger, morally and intellectually dishonest dipshit; an idiot and a fucking moron; a nucking fut who can’t read; a crazy, angry, vicious and stupid Nazi — but, of course, you’re …. tolerant! Your juvenile approach to a debate renders you meaningless. In an actual debate forum, you would be severely handicapped, even totally incapacitated. Your temper, lack of control and inability to focus would disqualify you, and you would be unable to formulate an opinion without searching others’ opinions online. By chance, were you one of the four people surveyed by the NSF?

  19. TeacherVet Says:

    btw, jbc’s figures are accurate for both conflicts, according to the data from his two sources. enkidu, your confusion seems to result from your failure to comprehend my repeated request for the current data.

    At present, jbc’s last posted data was for June 2006 (the 40th month of both conflicts, based on his much-debated beginning of the Vietnam War), with 61 correctly graphed. The 37th month accurately graphed 31 (not 23, wtf) deaths for March 2006 (not June). July and August 2006 are not yet included in the graph.

    The graph is easy to read, but I think the updated data (when posted) will make it possible for you to understand, enkidu. Or, of course, you could have actually read and comprehended one of my repeated requests. When I asked for the July (41st month) statistics, it should have been clear than June stats were the last ones posted.

  20. treehugger Says:

    Good to see everyone is getting riled up for this fall’s elections!!

  21. treehugger Says:

    This is always a nice headline to wake up to…

    Baghdad attacks kill 64, wounds 280

    What a fabulous start to the month of September.

  22. enkidu Says:

    hey treehugger, you should either sue these guys or work for em! =)
    http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/08/the_hybrid_mini.php
    0 to 60 in 4.5 seconds for an electric mini cooper

    TV, much too busy to trade bon mots with an unemployed rebel crank such as your a-steamed self. The 8th edition of my third book just hit the done pile with a resounding thud after way too much late night work. Suffice to say you will stand firm in your defense of incompetence, greed, stupidity, racism, war and all the other ‘values’ that define the Republican machine.

    (shifting gears)
    I love how von Rummy rails that we are in a war against fascism. Seems to me that the Rethugs are the party of fascism (state control of info, capital in fewer and fewer hands, military worship, aggressive war policy to ‘make peace’). I am sure Hitler used similar rhetoric to tighten his grip on power (godwins law be damned – call a nazi a nazi). 9/11 is our kristalnacht

    This 1946 film from Encyclopedia Brittanica (those commies! ;-) is absolutely chilling to watch as it amply demonstrates that we are quickly sliding into a flag wrapped burning cross sort of patrio-fascist-despotism
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7jGZkaNTa8

    Just to wrap up TV, I never promised to be polite, not to swear or pull your spittle-flecked beard, quite to the contrary after reading your posts for months/years I finally decided to see for myself about your WMD claims: pure and utter bullshit, not a shred of truth or honesty anywhere.

  23. TeacherVet Says:

    Yep, enkidu, you proved that there are others who share your belief that found components of WMD are not actually evidence of WMD, or whatever your belief might be. “After years….“, actually, within moments of my post concerning evidence of Saddams failure to comply with UN demands for complete disclosure, you googled for selective opinions to support your own, of which there are many. “…not a shred of truth or honesty anywhere.” Sorry, but that is pure and utter bullshit.

    Keep googling, I’ll keep jerking your chain and giggling at the childish responses.

    Three books? I thought Tookie was executed, but I’d be happy to financially support your non-blogging novels if provided with book titles. Everyone needs a good laugh at times.

    I have no problem with your habitual hate speech, since that kind of rhetoric from JFnK supporters was instrumental in the voters’ rejection of him. Actually, I delight in the revealing insight it provides, although at times it seems to be the only thing you have to offer. It’s what you do best, so please feel free to continue exposing yourself.

    btw, wouldn’t lies.com be the appropriate place for an expose on the most recent developments in the “outing” of Valerie Plame and her honerable husband? /sarc Worthy of note, now that the blame has begun to shift, the NYT states that revealing Plames identity only “might have been” a crime. Is there anything in the anti-Bush arsenal that has not been fabricated?

  24. enkidu Says:

    So now you claim that we discovered all those gigatons of WMDs in Iraq?
    Forgive me for saying so, but that is bullshit. I didn’t google opinions, my sources were the IAEA, DoD, DoE, BBC and the Dulfer and Blix reports. Each of your claims were tripe. If there was anything to your wingnut claims, FauxNEWZ would be trumpeting the news 24/7.

    As to my books, no way. I am not giving out my name as I don’t want your skinhead or kkk buddies burning down my house or business. Nor do I need some crank spewing hate speech in my Amazon reviews. The three books are on technical subjects that don’t admit to polemics. As they deal with real world science, medicine and so on, I think you would find their lack of faith disturbing.

    As to hate speech, get real, look in the mirror. I don’t read books where the author claims that the best way to talk to a liberal is with a baseball bat (or proposes poisoning liberal judges or any other crap that Mann Coulter spews). I think you should just save up the juvenile name calling and demented drivel for this Christmas eve: last Christmas Eve you really put out a doozy of a post, I bet you are really bubbling over with hate for this year’s message.

    Enjoy.

  25. treehugger Says:

    Hey TV – I will entertain your challenge of is there anything in the anti-Bush arsenal that has not been fabricated? Let’s get started shall we.

    1. Bush lied to the American people over the threat from Iraq. It is becoming increasingly clear that America is in much more danger from states such as N. Korea and Iran. Because of this, thousands of brave American lives have been lost and/or altered and the situation is only getting worse, much worse. Even if you supported the President in this endeavour, the war has been executed and managed so badly, it’s laughable that this moron calls himself the “war president”. He is 0-2:
    - Fiasco I: Five years after Bush ordered Afghanistan invaded and proclaimed “total victory,” U.S. and allied forces are fighting a losing war against Afghan resistance groups. Afghan heroin exports are up 90%. The U.S. just quietly deployed thousands more troops to Afghanistan to hunt Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri in a desperate attempt to save Republicans from getting clobbered in November midterm elections.
    - Fiasco II: “Mission accomplished” in Iraq. Bush’s war in Iraq is clearly lost, but few dare admit it. The U.S. has spent $300 billion on Afghanistan and Iraq, with nothing to show but bloody chaos, deficits, body bags, and growing hatred of America. The Bush/Dick Cheney “liberation” of Iraq has now cost more than the Vietnam War.
    2. The world is a more dangerous place since Bush started this war. Terrorist attacks are up worldwide, the middle-east is in turmoil, and he provided Al-Qaeda with a recruitment tool that they could have never came up with.

    3. Bin Laden is still at large, and Bush “doesn’t really think about him”.

    3. Bin Laden is still at large.

    4. The gap between the rich/poor has grown in the last 5 years, after the Clinton admin began to close it.

    5. Millions more Americans now don’t have health coverage since 2000.

    6. “Brownie” didn’t do a heck of a job. Unless, he meant he was doing a heck of a job f*cking shit up.

    7. If this really is a war against “fascism”, then why are tax cuts for the rich being pushed through? Why isn’t the country rallied? Who cuts taxes in the middle of a war?

    8. American jobs are being out-sourced at a record pace.

    9. This admin has failed to secure our borders.

    10. America’s standing in the world has been enormously diminished since this president has came to power. I could keep going, but I’m starting to get depressed.

  26. TeacherVet Says:

    enkidu, FauxNEWZ did mention the discovery of WMD components a couple of weeks ago. However, they did not harp on it for two full years as the MSM and liberal blog sites did with the false reports in the Valerie Plame/Joe Wilson case.

    You’re still labeling someone without knowledge of who they are. I don’t know any skinheads or KKK members, and certainly wouldn’t have anything to do with burning houses or businesses.

    You don’t read books where the author claims ……… but you somehow know the content of the books?

  27. TeacherVet Says:

    treehugger, we’ll not agree on many things, but thanks for an attempt at actual discussion. I’ll address the fabrication issues you listed.

    1. “Bush lied …” was a very effective mantra for a few years, but is actually the greatest fabrication of all. Bush properly assumed that Saddam had WMD, based on our intel sources and corroborated by separate intel sources of virtually every other nation in this world. In the four years prior to the start of the Iraq War, every leader in the Democrat Party made official statements voicing the same assumption, including Biden, Schumer, Kerry, Kennedy, Berger, Levin, Byrd, both Clintons, Gore, Gephardt, Feingold, Edwards, Nelson, Daschle, Richardson, Albright, Pelosi, Rockefeller, Harman, Bayh, Graham, etc.

    As stated by Nancy Pelosi on December 16, 1998, “Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology, which is a threat to countries in the region, and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.” When the onset of the invasion was delayed Saddam was given ample time to ship the stuff out, as evidenced by the lack of finding the “gigatons” he certainly had earlier. “Bush lied …” Cute, but false, making the rest of your argument bogus.

    2. Terrorists attacks are up world-wide? Admittedly, they are more publicized as they are primarily focused on an area roughly the size of one of our medium-sized states, and they are certainly frequent as our enemies fight against the notion of a democracy in the heart of the Middle East.

    3. Correct. Bin Laden is still at large, even releasing another movie today, in which he embraces some of his “heroes” who flew planes into…. Whoa, now! How can that be, since Dick Cheney and company actually orchestrated the events of 9/11?

    4. I’m in that gap between the rich/poor, but I don’t seem to have the same perspective. Recent data seems to indicate that the poor are better off the last few years – strange.

    5. If millions more don’t have have coverage since 2000, it is because they haven’t purchased it. I am absolutely opposed to socialized health care, period.

    6. I don’t know who “Brownie” is.

    7. Tax cuts have been pushed through to stimulate the economy, and it has worked successfully. It is impossible to give tax cuts to those who don’t pay taxes.

    8. True, although there are two sides to that coin. If we cease all out-sourcing, do we also stop other countries from out-sourcing to us? What are the economic consequences? The unemployment rate is the lowest in many decades, and there are plenty of employment opportunities for anyone among the 4% unemployed who really wish to work.

    9. True. Immigration has been a problem since 1492. This administration should have fixed the problem decades/centuries ago.

    10. America has always been hated in the world, but our standing as the world’s only remaining super-power has certainly not diminished. If you mean, “Why don’t people like us,” try jealousy. We’re not jealous of lesser countries for obvious reasons, and we don’t exist merely for their benefit. We are the most generous, caring nation in the world, as evidenced by the efforts of people from all those envious nations trying to gain entry into the U.S.

    There are too many good things going on in this country to get sucked into the trap of constantly thinking like Chicken Little. Life is what we make it, and if the good citizens of Iraq, with their current living conditions, can survive by looking positively to the future, surely those of us in the land of opportunity can do the same. I apologize for not sharing the pessimism, but life is too short to live in self-imposed misery over winning or losing an election.

  28. treehugger Says:

    Sorry TV, but your assertions go completely against actual facts. I was hoping I wouldn’t have to, but I will post the data sources for my statements when I have more time (im at work). I don’t simply pull statistics out of my ass like you seem to do.

    It’s also really sad that you equate dissent with pessimism. I think it truly highlights your narrow-minded view of the world and a huge problem with America right now.

    I noticed you didn’t address the 0-2 record of “the war president”. At least we agree on something.

    Stand by for the factual statistics…

  29. treehugger Says:

    Oh, can you please name all of the good things going on in George W Bush’s America, I can’t seem to think of very many. Thanks.

  30. enkidu Says:

    treehugger – good luck ‘arguing’ with Macaca (oops TV), from my experience you can’t fight fanatical faith with facts and figures. Zealots just won’t believe the truth. Sad really.

    Macaca/TV – you are hilarious! Every single numbered point is just too damn funny. Of course Macaca doesn’t know who brownie is… Katrina was a smashing success! Allow me to let some light into your darkness: FEMA director? Katrina fubar? Ring any bells? no? I can see that FauxNEWZ is definitely your channel (studies show that Faux viewers are more likely to believe false assertions like “we found the gigatons of WMDz in I-rak!”). Of course this is just a statistical ‘opinion’ ;-) Whatever, enjoy your shrinking island of right wing anger and hatred.

    When you spew that I am a ‘creature’ don’t you think that sounds just like the rhetoric of the Nazis toward the Jews/Gypsies/Slavs/etc? Perhaps because it makes it easier to demonize and hate something that isn’t human, eh? Easier to justify exterminating them/it, rounding them/it up for the camps/gas chambers etc. Sounds just like the religious fanatics in the middle east. I most certainly will not provide you and your right wing psycho freaks with my personal info because I am afraid of the violence that you folks seem to love so much.

    Macaca/TV please list with reliable sources the gigatons of WMDz we have found in Iraq (a few hundred artillery shells from the Iran/Iraq war are not WMDs, the contents are degraded beyond military usefulness [no more toxic than say, Crystal Lite] and they couldn’t be fired in any case). No opinions please: facts only. It was amazingly easy to pop your bubble before and I expect this crop of crap to be similar.

    ps – I bet you didn’t bother to watch that video on despotism I linked to… truth hurts

    pps – search youtube or (heh) google for the BBC series “The Power of Nightmares” bet you can’t watch the whole thing without severe cognitive dissonance.

    boo!

  31. TeacherVet Says:

    Hi, treehugger.

    Yes, treehugger, I actually did (essentially) address the subjective win/loss record of the USA in my final statement on your point #1. Since the Global War on Terror, including the Iraq War, are still on-going, there is no win/loss record as yet. Thus, it didn’t warrant addressing, except to state that the “Bush lied” lie made the rest of your argument bogus. All of your contentions are based on the fabricated mantra, but I am said to be narrow-minded?

    I look forward to viewing the “factual statistics,” although some of the things I “pull…out of [my] ass” are based on real-life observations, not propagandized polls and opinions.

  32. TeacherVet Says:

    Great job, enkidu. You linked to a 1946 propaganda film that exposed Hitler as a despot. Thanks for the clarification.

    Of special note, the film specifies censorship as a sign of despotism gaining a foothold. Bush has been libeled for 6 years, specifically in the Michael Moore docudrama, and now the same people who flocked to the theatres to see his farcical garbage are trying to force censorship of a docudrama that apparently provides an alternate view. I guess selective censorship is acceptable.

    The film also clarifies the advantages of democracy. Go, Iraq.

    The relevance of the film is “apparent” only if one blindly subscribes to the Bu$hHitler mantra of extremists on the left.

    No, I didn’t know who “Brownie” was, since no one by that name was involved in the hurricane episode. I had neglected the propensity of “non-haters” to assign derogatory nicknames. FEMA was about 3rd or 4th in the line of responsibility in response to Katrina, and thankfully they finally arrived (after about 3 days) since those who were primarily responsible failed completely, even in the face of gun-toting thugs while delivering aid.

    btw, I switched to iced tea (hopefully as PC as hot tea) so I should become more politically correct any day now. I might switch to hot tea once the Bush global warming ends. I need your advice, though, on which brand is most acceptable and whether it’s okay to use sweetener. For accuracy, please direct me to the appropriate scientific poll.

  33. TeacherVet Says:

    Oh, and yes, I’m guilty of watching FauxNEWZ. Having also watched plenty of newscasts on CNN and MSNBC, I’ve never found any topic discussed on those channels that wasn’t covered on Fox, but only on Fox am I given contrary views. I realize that you hate it, but the news monopoly is over. As a strict conformist to popular opinion, you should submit to the ratings of all the TV news outlets.

  34. enkidu Says:

    pssst – earth to dumb@$$ wingnut!

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/09/20050902-2.html
    scroll down to third to last paragraph
    Preznit Bush was the one who said “Heck of a job Brownie!” to former FEMA director Michael Brown just days after Katrina, but long after it became apparent to anyone with two functioning hemispheres that our gun’mint (my fav nickname for the gov) had failed miserably to respond to a national disaster. Local, state, fed. But I suppose you think 9/11 was a local disaster. My word for it? Atrocity.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G7gq7GQ71c
    Macaca is George Allen calling a Indian camera man (a US citizen btw) a “Macaca” a racial slur in the part of the world where Allen’s mother apparently grew up. Or it also sounds a heck of a lot like Macaque – a type of monkey. Either way, Republican’s should make this their standard greeting from here on out. Well who is this George Allen anyway and why should I care? Why he may be our next or maybe next after that R President! He is supposed to have a noose and a confederate flag (not sure if its still there tbh) in his home office.

    so, who ya gonna believe, your lyin eyes or me!

    those links and videos must be fabricated by the evil internets, you know the liberal ones ;-)

  35. enkidu Says:

    and since you asked SO nicely

    we like sun tea here for iced tea
    the kids make it in a big glass mason jar and add mint from the garden
    any old flavor will do (decaf for the kids usually) heh

  36. TeacherVet Says:

    Thanks, enkidu. I have a rather large spice garden, and peppermint should do quite well.

    Sorry to be such a dumb@$$ wingnut, but I don’t have a lot of free time to spend browsing for articles/quotes/etc. I admit that I’d never heard the Macaca term until you mentioned it. Is George Allen the only Republican you’ve heard use the term, or has it become popular among all of them? Surely it’s not wise to generalize based on stupid statements by a single individual – e.g., I don’t think Sen. Byrd’s use of the “n” word is really common among all Democrats. btw, I’ve personally heard Al Gore use the racial slurs when he thought he was just in his circle of friends, but it is still wrong to generalize and attribute that language to all on the left.

  37. enkidu Says:

    still waiting for all those gigatons of WMDz we done found
    please be sure to list a source (that should be fun!)

    and I await with bated breath your rendition of “I heard Al Gore say the n word! (at his moonbase where he invented the internets)” Make sure you have some footage or maybe a transcript. And do I really care that Byrd was raised racist 80 years ago, yet recanted how many decades ago? I am pointing out current, real, ‘watch it with your own eyes’ racism, yet you just won’t ‘believe’. Classic(k).

    Frankly I am sure both of these claims (WMD and Gore-as-racist) are horseshit, bullshit, and just plain shit. But it will be fun to watch you fly way off the handle while making it all up. Please enlighten me o wise wingnut!

  38. treehugger Says:

    Okay there TV, let’s try to be consistent.

    The second post on this page you blab about some Democratic blogger hoping that more US troops will die, implying that all Dems want troops to die for further condemnation of this war. So your charge of stereotyping towards enkidu is pretty hypocritical.

    Of course the charge by many on the right that those of us that are anti-Bush are hoping for more deaths is completely upsurd. It’s us that want our troops brought home, not to stay and occupy a country in the midst of a civil war. Or at least sent to capture Bin Laden, where they should have been sent in the first place!

  39. TeacherVet Says:

    enkidu, if you actually read my post, you’ll see that I witnessed Al Gore being himself “when he thought he was just in his circle of friends,” and he certainly wouldn’t behave that way if cameras were rolling. I suppose you have footage or a transcript to verify the charge of racism against your own father? If not, is your charge believeable?

    You want transcripts? I spent some rare time researching for some quotes you can mull over – or, of course, deny.

    “Iraq is a long way from Ohio, but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.
    No one has done what Saddam Hussein has done, or is thinking of doing. He is producing weapons of mass destruction, and he is qualitatively and quantitatively different from other dictators.”

    Madeleine Albright, President Clinton’s Secretary of State
    Town Hall Meeting on Iraq at Ohio State University
    February 18, 1998

    “Imagine the consequences if Saddam fails to comply and we fail to act. Saddam will be emboldened, believing the international community has lost its will. He will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction. And some day, some way, I am certain, he will use that arsenal again, as he has ten times since 1983.”
    Sandy Berger (Burglar?), President Clinton’s National Security Advisor
    Town Hall Meeting on Iraq at Ohio State University
    February 18, 1998

    “Ten years after the Gulf War and Saddam is still there and still continues to stockpile weapons of mass destruction. Now there are suggestions he is working with al Qaeda, which means the very terrorists who attacked the United States last September may now have access to chemical and biological weapons.”
    James P. Rubin, President Clinton’s State Department spokesman
    In a PBS documentary titled “Saddam’s Ultimate Solution”
    July 11, 2002

    “Dear Mr. President: … We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraq sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.”
    Sincerely,
    Carl Levin, Joe Lieberman, Frank R. Lautenberg, Dick Lugar, Kit Bond, Jon Kyl, Chris Dodd, John McCain, Kay Bailey Hutchison, Alfonse D’Amato, Bob Kerrey, Pete V. Domenici, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Mikulski, Thomas Daschle, John Breaux, Tim Johnson, Daniel K. Inouye, Arlen Specter, James Inhofe, Strom Thurmond, Mary L. Landrieu, Wendell Ford, John Kerry, Chuck Grassley, Jesse Helms, Rick Santorum.
    Letter to President Clinton
    Signed by Senators Tom Daschle, John Kerry and others
    October 9, 1998

    “As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.”
    Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi (Democrat, California)
    Statement on US Led Military Strike Against Iraq
    December 16, 1998

    “Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.
    We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.”
    Al Gore, Former Clinton Vice-President
    Speech to San Francisco Commonwealth Club
    September 23, 2002

    “In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members…
    It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.”
    Senator Hillary Clinton
    Addressing the US Senate
    October 10, 2002

    “The nerve agent VX is one of the most toxic ever developed.
    13,000 chemical bombs were dropped by the Iraqi Air Force between 1983 and 1988, while Iraq has declared that 19,500 bombs were consumed during this period. Thus, there is a discrepancy of 6,500 bombs. The amount of chemical agent in these bombs would be in the order of about 1,000 tonnes.”
    “The recent inspection find in the private home of a scientist of a box of some 3,000 pages of documents, much of it relating to the laser enrichment of uranium support a concern that has long existed that documents might be distributed to the homes of private individuals. …we cannot help but think that the case might not be isolated and that such placements of documents is deliberate to make discovery difficult and to seek to shield documents by placing them in private homes.”

    BOB SCHIEFFER, Chief Washington Correspondent: And with us now is the Democratic presidential candidate Dick Gephardt. Congressman, you supported taking military action in Iraq. Do you think now it was the right thing to do?
    REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT, D-MO, Democratic Presidential Candidate:
    I do. I base my determination on what I heard from the CIA. I went out there a couple of times and talked to everybody, including George Tenet. I talked to people in the Clinton administration. (emphasis added)
    SCHIEFFER: Well, let me just ask you, do you feel, Congressman, that you were misled?
    GEPHARDT: I don’t. I asked very direct questions of the top people in the CIA and people who’d served in the Clinton administration. And they said they believed that Saddam Hussein either had weapons or had the components of weapons or the ability to quickly make weapons of mass destruction. What we’re worried about is an A-bomb in a Ryder truck in New York, in Washington and St. Louis. It cannot happen. We have to prevent it from happening. And it was on that basis that I voted to do this.
    Congressman Richard Gephardt (Democrat, Montana)
    Interviewed on CBS News “Face the Nation”
    November 2, 2003

  40. TeacherVet Says:

    My last post was incomplete. Sorry for any double-posting, but I accidentally hit “Submit Comment” before I was finished with editing. This is the complete version.

    enkidu, if you actually read my post, you’ll see that I witnessed Al Gore being himself “when he thought he was just in his circle of friends,” and he certainly wouldn’t behave that way if cameras were rolling. I suppose you have footage or a transcript to verify the charge of racism against your own father? If not, is your charge believeable?

    You want transcripts to support evidence of Saddam’s possession of WMDs , (Gigatons was your word, not mine) or documented evidence of his involvement with al Qaeda and other terrorist groups? I spent some rare time researching for some quotes you can mull over, excuse, deny….or, of course, simply ignore. In the words of sincere, honest, credible Democrats:

    “We must exercise responsibility not just at home, but around the world. On the eve of a new century, we have the power and the duty to build a new era of peace and security.
    We must combat an unholy axis of new threats from terrorists, international criminals, and drug traffickers. These 21st century predators feed on technology and the free flow of information… And they will be all the more lethal if weapons of mass destruction fall into their hands.
    Together, we must confront the new hazards of chemical and biological weapons and the outlaw states, terrorists, and organized criminals seeking to acquire them. Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade and much of his nation’s wealth not on providing for the Iraqi people but on developing nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them.”
    President William Jefferson Clinton
    State of the Union address
    January 27, 1998

    “Iraq is a long way from Ohio, but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.
    No one has done what Saddam Hussein has done, or is thinking of doing. He is producing weapons of mass destruction, and he is qualitatively and quantitatively different from other dictators.”
    Madeleine Albright, President Clinton’s Secretary of State
    Town Hall Meeting on Iraq at Ohio State University
    February 18, 1998

    “Imagine the consequences if Saddam fails to comply and we fail to act. Saddam will be emboldened, believing the international community has lost its will. He will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction. And some day, some way, I am certain, he will use that arsenal again, as he has ten times since 1983.”
    Sandy Berger (Burglar?), President Clinton’s National Security Advisor
    Town Hall Meeting on Iraq at Ohio State University
    February 18, 1998

    “Saddam Hussein has already used these weapons and has made it clear that he has the intent to continue to try, by virtue of his duplicity and secrecy, to continue to do so. That is a threat to the stability of the Middle East. It is a threat with respect to the potential of terrorist activities on a global basis. It is a threat even to regions near but not exactly in the Middle East.”
    Sen. John Kerry
    February 23, 1998

    The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (sponsored by Bob Kerrey, John McCain, and Joseph Lieberman, and signed into law by President Clinton) states:
    “It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime.”
    Iraq Liberation Act of 1998
    105th Congress, 2nd Session
    September 29, 1998

    “Dear Mr. President: … We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraq sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.”
    Sincerely,
    Carl Levin, Joe Lieberman, Frank R. Lautenberg, Dick Lugar, Kit Bond, Jon Kyl, Chris Dodd, John McCain, Kay Bailey Hutchison, Alfonse D’Amato, Bob Kerrey, Pete V. Domenici, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Mikulski, Thomas Daschle, John Breaux, Tim Johnson, Daniel K. Inouye, Arlen Specter, James Inhofe, Strom Thurmond, Mary L. Landrieu, Wendell Ford, John Kerry, Chuck Grassley, Jesse Helms, Rick Santorum.
    Letter to President Clinton
    Signed by Senators Tom Daschle, John Kerry and others
    October 9, 1998

    New York — Usama bin Laden and Muhammad Atef were indicted November 4 in Manhattan federal court for the August 7 bombings of the US embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and for conspiring to kill Americans outside the United States.
    According to the indictment, bin Laden and al Qaeda forged alliances with the National Islamic Front in Sudan and with representatives of the Government of Iran and its associated terrorist group Hezballah with the goal of working together against their common enemies in the West, particularly the United States.
    “In addition, al Qaeda reached an understanding with the Government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq,” the indictment said. (emphasis added)
    US State Department
    November 4, 1998

    “As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.”
    Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi (Democrat, California)
    Statement on US Led Military Strike Against Iraq
    December 16, 1998

    “Heavy as they are, the costs of action must be weighed against the price of inaction. If Saddam defies the world and we fail to respond, we will face a far greater threat in the future. Saddam will strike again at his neighbors; he will make war on his own people. And mark my words, he will develop weapons of mass destruction. He will deploy them, and he will use them.”
    President Clinton
    National Address from the Oval Office
    December 16, 1998

    “Earlier today, I ordered America’s armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq…. Their mission is to attack Iraq’s nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.” (emphasis added)
    President William Jefferson Clinton
    December 17, 1998

    “We urge you, after consulting with Congress and consistent with the US Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions, including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.” (emphasis added)
    From a Letter to President Clinton, signed by Senators Levin, Lieberman, Lautenberg, Dodd, Kerrey, Feinstein, Mikulski, Daschle, Breaux, Johnson, Inouye, Landrieu, Ford and Kerry.
    October 9, 1999

    “Hussein has chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies.”
    Madeleine Albright
    November 10, 1999

    CNN: How did Hussein intend to use the weapon, once it was completed?
    HAMZA: Saddam has a whole range of weapons of mass destruction, nuclear, biological and chemical. According to German intelligence estimates, we expect him to have three nuclear weapons by 2005. So, the window will close by 2005, and we expect him then to be a lot more aggressive with his neighbors and encouraging terrorism, and using biological weapons. Now he’s using them through surrogates like al Qaeda, but we expect he’ll use them more aggressively then.
    Dr. Khidhir Hamza, former Iraqi Nuclear Scientist for 20 years
    Interviewed on CNN
    October 22, 2001

    “Dear Mr. President:
    The events of September 11 have highlighted the vulnerability of the United States to determined terrorists. As we work to clean up Afghanistan and destroy al Qaeda, it is imperative that we plan to eliminate the threat from Iraq.
    This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs.
    The threat from Iraq is real, and it cannot be permanently contained. For as long as Saddam Hussein is in power in Baghdad, he will seek to acquire weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them. We have no doubt that these deadly weapons are intended for use against the United States and its allies. Consequently, we believe we must directly confront Saddam, sooner rather than later.
    Mr. President, all indications are that in the interest of our own national security, Saddam Hussein must be removed from power.”

    Sincerely,
    Congressman Harold Ford (Democrat, Tennessee)
    Senator Bob Graham (Democrat, Florida)
    Congressman Tom Lantos (Democrat, California)
    Senator Joseph Lieberman (Democrat, Connecticut)
    Senator Sam Brownback (Republican, Kansas)
    Senator Jesse Helms (Republican, North Carolina)
    Congressman Henry Hyde (Republican, Illinois)
    Senator Trent Lott (Republican, Mississippi)
    Senator John McCain (Republican, Arizona)
    Senator Richard Shelby (Republican, Alabama)
    Letter to President Bush
    December 5, 2001

    “Ten years after the Gulf War and Saddam is still there and still continues to stockpile weapons of mass destruction. Now there are suggestions he is working with al Qaeda, which means the very terrorists who attacked the United States last September may now have access to chemical and biological weapons.”
    James P. Rubin, President Clinton’s State Department spokesman
    In a PBS documentary titled “Saddam’s Ultimate Solution”
    July 11, 2002

    “As a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, I firmly believe that the issue of Iraq is not about politics. It’s about national security. We know that for at least 20 years, Saddam Hussein has obsessively sought weapons of mass destruction through every means available. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons today. He has used them in the past, and he is doing everything he can to build more. Each day he inches closer to his longtime goal of nuclear capability — a capability that could be less than a year away. I believe that Saddam Hussein’s Iraqi regime represents a clear threat to the United States, to our allies, to our interests around the world, and to the values of freedom and democracy we hold dear.
    What’s more, the terrorist threat against America is all too clear. Thousands of terrorist operatives around the world would pay anything to get their hands on Saddam’s arsenal, and there is every possibility that he could turn his weapons over to these terrorists. No one can doubt that if the terrorists of September 11th had weapons of mass destruction, they would have used them. On September 12, 2002, we can hardly ignore the terrorist threat, and the serious danger that Saddam would allow his arsenal to be used in aid of terror.
    The time has come for decisive action. With our allies, we must do whatever is necessary to guard against the threat posed by an Iraq armed with weapons of mass destruction, and under the thumb of Saddam Hussein. The United States must lead an international effort to remove the regime of Saddam Hussein — and to assure that Iraq fulfills its obligations to the international community.
    Senator John Edwards (Democrat, North Carolina)
    Addressing the US Senate
    September 12, 2002

    “Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.
    We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.”
    Al Gore, Former Clinton Vice-President
    Speech to San Francisco Commonwealth Club
    September 23, 2002

    “We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction.”
    Sen. Edward Kennedy
    September 27, 2002

    “We have solid reporting of senior level contacts between Iraq and al-Qa’ida going back a decade. Credible information indicates that Iraq and al-Qa’ida discussed safe haven and reciprocal non-aggression. Since Operation Enduring Freedom, we have solid evidence of the presence in Iraq of al-Qa’ida members, including some that have been in Baghdad.
    “Iraq’s increasing support to extremist Palestinians, coupled with growing indications of a relationship with al- Qa’ida, suggest that Baghdad’s links to terrorists will increase, even absent US military action.”
    Both quotes from:
    CIA Director George Tenet
    Letter to Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Graham
    October 7, 2002

    “In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members…
    It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.”
    Senator Hillary Clinton
    Addressing the US Senate
    October 10, 2002

    “There was unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. We also should remember that we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.”
    Jay Rockefeller
    October 10, 2002

    “Yes, he has chemical weapons. Yes, he has biological weapons. He is trying to get nuclear weapons.”
    Nancy Pelosi
    October 10, 2002

    “The nerve agent VX is one of the most toxic ever developed.
    13,000 chemical bombs were dropped by the Iraqi Air Force between 1983 and 1988, while Iraq has declared that 19,500 bombs were consumed during this period. Thus, there is a discrepancy of 6,500 bombs. The amount of chemical agent in these bombs would be in the order of about 1,000 tonnes.”
    “The recent inspection find in the private home of a scientist of a box of some 3,000 pages of documents, much of it relating to the laser enrichment of uranium support a concern that has long existed that documents might be distributed to the homes of private individuals. …we cannot help but think that the case might not be isolated and that such placements of documents is deliberate to make discovery difficult and to seek to shield documents by placing them in private homes.”
    “I have mentioned the issue of anthrax to the Council on previous occasions and I come back to it as it is an important one. Iraq has declared that it produced about 8,500 litres of this biological warfare agent, which it states it unilaterally destroyed in the summer of 1991. Iraq has provided little evidence for this production and no convincing evidence for its destruction.
    There are strong indications that Iraq produced more anthrax than it declared, and that at least some of this was retained after the declared destruction date. It might still exist. Either it should be found and be destroyed under UNMOVIC supervision or else convincing evidence should be produced to show that it was, indeed, destroyed in 1991.”
    All 3 quotes from:
    Dr. Hans Blix, Chief UN Weapons Inspector
    Addressing the UN Security Council
    January 27, 2003

    “[P]art of this Zarqawi network in Baghdad are two dozen Egyptian Islamic Jihad which is indistinguishable from al Qaeda — operatives who are aiding the Zarqawi network, and two senior planners who have been in Baghdad since last May. Now, whether there is a base or whether there is not a base, they are operating freely, supporting the Zarqawi network that is supporting the poisons network in Europe and around the world. So these people have been operating there. And, as you know…. a foreign service went to the Iraqis twice to talk to them about Zarqawi and were rebuffed. So there is a presence in Baghdad that is beyond Zarqawi.”
    Director Tenet
    Report to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
    February 11, 2003

    “We’ve had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with…September 11th.” (Huh? But I thought he said….)
    President Bush
    September 17, 2003

    BOB SCHIEFFER, Chief Washington Correspondent: And with us now is the Democratic presidential candidate Dick Gephardt. Congressman, you supported taking military action in Iraq. Do you think now it was the right thing to do?
    REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT, D-MO, Democratic Presidential Candidate:
    I do. I base my determination on what I heard from the CIA. I went out there a couple of times and talked to everybody, including George Tenet. I talked to people in the Clinton administration. (emphasis added)
    SCHIEFFER: Well, let me just ask you, do you feel, Congressman, that you were misled?
    GEPHARDT: I don’t. I asked very direct questions of the top people in the CIA and people who’d served in the Clinton administration. And they said they believed that Saddam Hussein either had weapons or had the components of weapons or the ability to quickly make weapons of mass destruction. What we’re worried about is an A-bomb in a Ryder truck in New York, in Washington and St. Louis. It cannot happen. We have to prevent it from happening. And it was on that basis that I voted to do this.
    Congressman Richard Gephardt (Democrat, Montana)
    Interviewed on CBS News “Face the Nation”
    November 2, 2003

    “I don’t think there’s any doubt but that there were some contacts between Saddam Hussein’s government and al-Qaeda, Osama Bin Laden’s people.”
    9-11 Commission Vice Chairman Lee Hamilton
    News Hour with Jim Lehrer
    June 16, 2004

    The Commission’s investigation does not dispute that contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda occurred. Chairman Kean and Vice Chairman Hamilton have said that there “definitely” were a number of contacts. Chairman Kean called these contacts “shadowy” — and the Administration agrees with him. These were contacts between a deadly terrorist organization that was seeking support and a country that the Administration knew had supported other terrorist organizations.
    “[Y]es, there were contacts between Iraqi and al-Qaeda, a number of them, some of them a little shadowy. They were definitely there.”
    9-11 Commission Chairman Thomas Kean
    News Hour with Jim Lehrer
    June 16, 2004

    “Bin Ladin also explored possible cooperation with Iraq during his time in Sudan, despite his opposition to Hussein’s secular regime… A senior Iraqi intelligence officer reportedly made three visits to Sudan, finally meeting Bin Ladin in 1994.”
    9-11 Commission Staff Statement 15
    June 16, 2004

    I do not apologize for the lengthy post….because I could have included dozens more quotes, dating back to 1998. Are all of these people “liars”…. or did they make self-grandizing pronouncements based on their belief in the word of GWB…. or are they all puppets of W’s…. or have they all changed their minds for political gain…. or out of hatred?

    It appears that John Kerry is not the only flip-flopper on the Democrat side of the aisle. I can finally decipher the Democrat plan for fighting the threat of terrorism: hindsight Of course, virtually all of them support taking the fight to terrorists….as long as we don’t confront them where they existin Iraq. Obviously, and sadly, their interests in national security take a back seat to two things: hatred of George W. Bush and their quest for a return to political prominence.

  41. TeacherVet Says:

    I neglected to close the italics tag during the rambling of Little John, which should have only italicized “clear threat to the United States,” but I doubt that the resulting difficulty in reading the remainder of the post will affect one’s ability to simply dismiss the quotes, anyway.

    If quoting Democrats is mean-spirited, exemplifies hatred, or is an example of flying way off the handle, I apologize.

  42. enkidu Says:

    nice quotage
    I suppose you used google?
    well an angry olde dog can still learn a few tricks I suppose

    if you rightwingnuts had your way we would have already had a nuke war with the USSR (the last boogeyman), a nuke war with China (the yellow peril! eeek! a mouse!) and have nuked most of the middle east (plus France! those surrender monkeys!)

    You have not shown a single example of WMDz that we actually found.
    You stated unequivocally that we found the WMDz: please show some concrete examples. Quotes from cooked intel don’t really cover it (and btw gwb ordered the invasion of Iraq, not Clinton)

    Right wing nutjobs have conflated the intelligence for decades. Ya’ll did it for the USSR, Iraq, and now Iran. The most recent House of Reps report on Iran is (to quote the IAEA) a lie.

    A few facts (I know these are numbers and facts, but please just try to BELIEVE) Iran’s entire GDP is less than half of what we spend on defense alone every year. Their defense spending is something like $6 billion (lowest per capita expenditure of any gulf region nation). Israel spends almost $8 billion (plus another $2.2b of US mil assistance plus some black ops money). The Saudis spend $25 billion each year (and we know how much the Wahabis love us… mmmmmm warm fuzzies). Currently Iran is sandwiched between a coalition in Afghanistan (hey where is that Osama fella?), and 140,000 US troops (plus some poodles) in Iraq (heckuva job bushie!).

    Hey I note you wingnuts claim that we haven’t been hit since 9/11… so we finally caught the anthrax killer? (who happens to use weaponized US made Ames strain anthrax – gee that sounds like an inside job eh? esp since he only sent it to Dem congresscritters – doh!)

    ps – more US citizens have died for dumbya’s folly than in 9/11.

    pps – still waiting for proof positive of all them WMDz.

  43. treehugger Says:

    I don’t care what politicians said, or what party they were from. I care about the f*ckheads that are managing these wars, obviously they aren’t any good at it. I am almost over that fact they lied to bring us to war, my anger has now turned to “well, they got us here, now get us out, assholes.”

    Maybe if Bush actually attended military training and some actual combat, he might, just might, have a damn clue about how to conduct a war.

    Has a single General been fired? We are losing wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan, yet no one seems to be punished for it, except our troops who are sent out on misguided and mismanaged operations thought of by complete retards in suits probably while they were sniffing cocaine, sipping whiskey and trying to figure out how to shoot a rifle properly. Good grief.

  44. TeacherVet Says:

    Your statements covered most of the unsubstantiated talking points – great.

    There might be some examples of “rightwingnuts” who would propose indescriminate nuking of various countries, but they are isolated examples. If that was the policy of this Republican administration, it would have been done long before now. Such a broad assertion makes you sound stupid, but if making such obviously false charges makes you “feel” good, go for it. btw, that fits perfectly into the actual dictionary definition of a lie.

    We found sufficient evidence of Saddam’s possession of WMD in various forms to confirm that he had possessed it. He tossed out the UN inspection teams after making “a mockery of the weapons inspection process” (Pelosi, 1998). Locating many large caches of newly manufactured gas masks, by itself, was sufficient to prove the WMD allegations. No, we didn’t find the large amounts of WMD that had been alleged for more than 5 years (1998-2003) leading up to the war, the obvious conclusion being that they were shipped out to his neighboring buddies during the long run-up prior to our arrival. It might be noted that Syria mysteriously volunteered to donate its own weapons systems for destruction – perhaps to avoid UN inspection team intervention when they were under suspicion as the destination of convoys of large truck shipments shortly before the onset of the Iraq War?

    Clinton was implored on several occasions (by those in his own party) to react appropriately to the threat posed by Saddam. The Iraq Liberation Act (signed by Kerry, McCain, et al) stated “It should be the policy of the United States to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein….and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime. In an official letter signed by many leaders within his own party, he was “urged” to “take necessary actions….to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destructions programs“.

    A couple of months later, Clinton responded, “Heavy as they are, the costs of action must be weighed against the price of inaction. Saddam …. weapons of mass destruction …. He will deploy them, and he will use them.”

    The next day he announced, “Earlier today I ordered….to strike….their mission is to attack Iraq’s nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons programs….,” so his effective response was to bomb an aspirin factory. You’re right – GWB ordered the invasion of Iraq, not WJC.

    The anthrax killer. By your own conclusion that was obviously an inside job, so we both agree that we haven’t been hit by terrorists in the 5 years since 9/11. We see the anthrax incident in different ways (no surprise there). The guy (gal?) could effectively cast suspicion on “right wing nutjobs” if he sent it only to “Dem congresscritters.”

    Apparently you’re gullible enough to believe the poorly researched conspiracy theories of three 19-year-old kids, but you bemoan the fact that we haven’t taken care of an “innocent” man, Osama bin Laden. You seem to find yourself in a bit of a dichomy here.

    I concur with every point in your list of facts, but they appear to be meaningless since you drew no conclusion to tie them together. The GDP and “defense” spending of Iran, Israel and Saudi Arabia is related to Iran being sandwiched between Afghanistan and Iraq (that’s a bad thing?) …. and?….

  45. TeacherVet Says:

    treehugger, your statement, “I don’t care …. what party they were from,” is convenient, but not believeable. With the constant repetition of lies (thanks, Goebbels, you were right), you have been suckered into buying into every one of them. However, your statement that you don’t care “what politicians said” (in the long lead-up to the Iraq War) certainly is believeable – sadly and unfortunately – because it’s precisely what I anticipated when I said it could be excused, denied, or simply ignored.

    Bush attended no military training? Thanks, Rather and Mapes – you got him. Sorry, but a review of his records shows that he greatly exceeded the required number of hours of training and duty each year. Combat? He has experienced it every day since his first election, and has battled admirably, usually without bowing to the temptation to return fire.

    We’re losing both wars! …. without losing a single battle? Sniffing cocaine, sipping whiskey, and trying to figure out how to shoot a rifle properly? Good grief. You’re better than that – think for yourself.

    I understand the frustration over losing elections, but making false charges, repetition of lies and name-calling don’t solve personal dilemmas.

  46. enkidu Says:

    hilarious
    nearly 180 degrees from reality, but still hilarious

    I wish I had as much time as my dear friend Macaca, but to refute just a couple idiocies:

    WMDZ!!!! Sorry Macaca, but finding caches of gas masks and the like is not by any stretch WMD. The US makes and deploys NBC protective gear, yet we don’t have massive stockpiles of WMDs…. errrr wait, yes we do, don’t we. Saddam had virtually nothing after GW1 and we (the world) did a pretty decent job of keeping him from getting anything new going. Ever notice that in a country supposedly swarming with WMDz we haven’t found much of anything? Nor has a single intentional attack been made with a real WMD (nookular/bio/chem). I am aware the insurgents have been digging up caches from the Iran/Iraq war and once made an IED with a chem weapon artillery shell. It seems pretty plain that if Johnny Jihad knew he had a bona fide WMD he would use it as such instead of as a IED in his home town (duh).

    re: anthrax killer. Nice blame demoncrats first thing you got going there. How do you know it is an inside job? Could it be Iraqis? Bin Laden? US black ops rogue agents (ie Rummy, PNAC, et al)? Al Gore? Not sure what 19 year old kids you are talking about, but I hope they use the sense and reason that God gave them to see the truth for themselves. Regardless, we have been attacked and once again the perps remain free to plot and plan and do it all over again (perhaps bumping up the preznits ratings above 40%).

    And to wrap up, it isn’t frustration over losing elections, it is frustration over having them stolen. To cite a single example of GOP ‘engineering’ elections, Youtube or google the Princeton U video on how hackable the Diebold machines really are. They were made to distort votes, not tally them. The wingnutosphere bleets about the BDS, but the only sufferers of BDS are those who think he is a competent president. Or actually elected.

    Once again, please cite examples of the gigatons of WMD gigadeath we have uncovered in Iraq.

  47. TeacherVet Says:

    Great, more repetition of Michael Moore, et al, talking points.

    I’ll say it again. No, we didn’t find the WMD that had been removed prior to our invasion… duh… but the huge supplies of newly manufactured gas masks certainly indicate possession prior to shipping them out.

    The preznits ratings? Who cares, unless he’s running for the office again?

    Nope, the “insurgents” obviously have none of the chemicals, hence they can only “fight” using IEDs. Getting anything into their hands from Syria has been made virtually impossible.

    Okay, the Diebold machines are hackable – just as stuffing ballot boxes in Chicago and elsewhere is possible – but any so-called “proof” of the machines having been hacked is merely slanderous speculation. The charges are as false as those in the Plame/Wilson/Bush/Cheney/Armitage episode (but, of course, the charge is all that matters). Some of you folks will fall for anything – conspiracy lovers united!

    Several cowardly Rethuglicans in Congress have abandoned ship in the face of constant false mantras, and many conservatives are unhappy with some of Bush’s actions, but lefties are celebrating too early. We are disappointed in Bush’s lack of conservative actions in some areas, but that certainly does not indicate that we are willing to adopt liberal “values.” If polling ever extends into red states, I may get an opportunity to express my own negative opinions of Bush’s spending, growth of government, immigration, education, etc., but the results will be misleading if interpretated to mean that I’ve joined the “other side.” Reworded, my dissatisfaction in some areas does not mean that I now support abortion, higher taxes, socialism, cowardice in the face of islamofacism, etc.

    In 2008, given the choice between a conservative Rethuglican and a liberal socialist, I (and millions of other conservatives) will vote conservative – and liberals will again assume that the election was stolen from them; after all, the (misinterpreted) polls in years prior to 2008 led all to believe that the Dem candidate was ahead by at least 30 points.

    For years, polls have consistently overstated results in favor of Democrat candidates and positions – please name an instance in which that statement was false – leading to a flse sense of polotical security, and leading to the “theft” assumption. Living in a liberal bubble, I suppose it’s easy to accept such beliefs as fact. If I lived in the Hollywood bubble, I guess I could honestly agree that “I don’t know anybody who was in favor of this war,” therefore it’s “Bush’s war!” – “90% of the people in my little bubble hate conservatives,” therefore the election was “stolen!” As I said earlier, some folks will fall for anything.

  48. enkidu Says:

    Macaca, Macaca, Macaca, you are truly a piece of work.

    OK, let me see… any poll that doesn’t reflect your ‘values’ is flat out wrong. No need to look at the scientific (oh a curse word!) methodology that goes into making accurate polls, just assume that FAUXnewz is trying to distort the preznits huge popularity into the same below 40% ratings that every other poll on the planet finds him to be wallowing in. Repeating 9/11 (9/11, 9/11, 9/11! Terra! Terra! 9/11, 9/11, boo!) gave him a what? a 2% bump that lasted all of a couple days. The fundamentals of the country can be summed up as follows: throw the bums out!

    I know plenty of Republicans… tho to be honest a huge swath went Independant in ’04 and some (like say Macaca Allen’s opponent Jim Webb) are now Democrats. Generally we just agree to disagree, politely, respectfully. There are a couple exceptions, who also happen to be the sort who spout racist bile after a couple drinks, or respond to political ‘debate’ with comments how everyone who disagrees with their version of the Truth (religious and political) is an insect. Or a creature. Sounds familiar?

    Oh please let us hear your made up story about Al Gore the closet racist. That should be quite the lie. As to my father’s regretable racism, perhaps we should look at this in terms of probabilities. Other than Macaca/TV, does anyone here think it more likely I have observed my father’s repeated racism over the years, or is it more likely that Macaca/TV was sitting around Gore’s secret moonbase while he let loose with a few racist humdingers? Which is more likely? That I am ashamed of my father’s regretable racism? Or Macaca knows Al Gore really really well? Please tell us all about your pajama party with Al Gore! Or are you saving it up for this Christmas Eve’s hate speech? Do tell!

    Finally you state categorically that the WMDz are in Syria (after you stated that we found teh WMDz!!!). Please provide some evidence. Nothing too wingnutty. Try the DoD, BBC, IAEA, and these things you may not be acquainted with: facts. Try looking that word up in the other good book: the dictionary. And while you are there look up conservative, then look up liberal.

  49. TeacherVet Says:

    Never have I stated that we found “teh WMDz,” although we did find telling evidence that backs up the charges of Saddam’s WMD programs – as charged dating back to 1998 by both Bill & Hillary Clinton, Albright, Kerry, Gore, Levin, Lieberman, Lautenberg, Dodd, Kerrey, Feinstein, Mikulski, Daschle, Breaux, Johnson, Inouye, Landrieu, Ford, Berger, Richardson, Pelosi, Durbin, Lugar, Bond, Kyl, McCain, Hutchinson, D’Amato, Domenici, Inhofe, Thurmond, Grassley, Santorum, Rockefeller, Graham, Lantos, et al (liars all, eh! – and “tools” of the Bush administration even in 1998 and 1999). Apologies for any repetitions in that 3-dozen listing of names, but many Democrats made the WMD charges on multiple occasions… but please feel free to ramble on.

    I certainly did not “state categorically” that WMDz (sic) are in Syria, but let’s play your game with the Syrian possibility that I hypothesized – prove that the WMD that existed in 1998 (according to the reliable sources listed above) was not shipped to Syria.

    I’m quite well aware of the difference between facts and wishful thinking. I looked up all 3 of the words when you made the same suggestion months ago. I wish today’s liberals fit that definition. I’ve also researched the meaning of socialism, and I refuse to accept it.

  50. TeacherVet Says:

    enkidu, you claim to disapprove of racism (which I have never evidenced), but consistently repeat racist slurs? Indescriminate repetion of the “n” word would be no less disingenuous – but please carry on.

  51. treehugger Says:

    So, we now have many ret’d generals finally coming out and telling f*cktard that he is an idiot and pretty much f’d up everything with the Afghan and Iraqi invasions, and at the same time managed to flush America’s credibility down the toilet with respect to the conduct of the war against Islamic extremists.

    But hey, what do they know about war? Surely not as much as armchair generals like TeacherVet.

    “Stay the course”

  52. enkidu Says:

    Macaca-san, TV, buddy, please tell me how I have used a racist slur? I may have quoted the n-word while describing some unsavory encounters with rightwingnutjobs, but I am pretty darn sure I have never used such language myself. Disingenuous? Why whatever do you mean? Is it your new 101st fightin keyboardist nickname, Macaca-san? Why, are you actually casting aspersions on the made up word of Virginia Senator George Felix Macaca Allen? I mean if you now think Macaca means something other than just being a made up word (as per Sen Allen), then perhaps you could fill me in on what these meaningless sounds actually mean? Thanks!

    You stated the WMDz are in Syria multiple times. Or are you flip flopping? Maybe the Iraqis shipped em to their good buddies the Iranians? Or mb France? As to your ‘debate’, some people might be asking: have stopped beating your wife? Not me, I am just reporting what some might ask… why can’t we debate these very serious alegations? Because the premise is (probably) a false one to begin with. How can I prove that something that doesn’t exist wasn’t shipped to Syria? The entire premise is bullshit. Might as well try to prove the tooth fairy wasn’t in league with both the easter bunny and the illuminati (everyone knows they have them WMDz!)

    And finally, how low have we sunk that we are debating how much torture to use on prisoners. We had a Canadian citizen tortured in Syria on suspicions that he might be a terra-ist. Turns out he is (and probably many others) completely innocent. We won WW2 (and WW3 or the cold war) without institutionalizing torture, and the whole idea that America holds some unassailable high moral authority has just been dragged thru the mud, feces and blood of Baghram, Abu Ghirab, Gitmo, and all those eastern european secret prisons that didn’t exist. Err until they did. Yeah. Say, how much torture do you think Jesus would approve of? Genital electrocution? Thumbscrews? Waterboarding? Crucifixion? How about none. None.

    It will take America (as opposed to Uhmerkkka, or dumbfuckistan) decades to recover from this disasterous presidency. Heck of a job, bushie!

  53. TeacherVet Says:

    Sorry, enkidu, but you find it necessary to reword my statements. I did not state or avow, I hypothesized based on the observance of trucks enroute from Iraq to Syria on the eve of the invasion. If the sruff never existed, did all those lib Democrats in my last post “lie”?

    The administration has never endorsed torture, and any speculation is merely that – hypothesized speculation to fit convenient, preconceived notions. Yes, some formerly detained terrorist suspects have made accusations; they know how to play to their naive audience, yourself included. They, the leaders of Iran and Venezuela, and you are all on the same page.

    The “M” word? As a descendant of slaves I should be offended by a racial slur, but I do the same as when labeled with the “n” word – consider the source. You object to the use of Allen’s offensive language, but adopt it into your own vocabulary, using it freely (liberally?). I think you might have learned more about racism and hatred from your dad than you wish to realize.

    It will obviously take many Americans decades to recover from the election of this president, as evidenced by their continuing 2000 battle for the White House.

    You’re vulgar, offensive, and obsessed with racism and hatred, but at least you’re incoherent (insert smiley-face).

  54. enkidu Says:

    Macaca-san, I am pretty sure the there are many trucks on the road between Damascas and Baghdad. You wrote that you observed them yourself? Perhaps you could google some photos of these convoys? And a bill of lading as to their contents? What? No? So then by the bush doctrine, we must preemptively assume that EVERY truck between Damascas and Baghdad was/is carrying WMDz.

    Iraq had no real WMD capability and had shown zero intent or capability to deliver said imaginary weapons to US or even US allies. If they had all this gigadeath, and had such chummy relations w Palestinian terra-ists, wtf didn’t they use them to hit Israel? No, the paying of suicide bomber families was a sick ploy to gain favor on the arab street.

    So if the Canadian gov (now a more right wing version btw) finds that the US had their citizen tortured in Syria, are they just being naive? Or do you think the real truth that the wingnut crowd thinks torture is AOK might reveal anything? We haven’t gained much by torturing folks (and it is happening way more than Macaca-san would admit), most of the actionable intel has come from breaking the average AQ fanatic just by showing them we are human, we won’t dismember them and we don’t torture… well, maybe that last one not so much…

    TIME magazine has a article where they lead off with (and I am quoting here from the Sept 25, 06 issure, page 19) “What kind of race is this? Embattled Virginia Senator George (Some of My Best Friends are Macaca) Allen, “ So clear this up for me please, is it:

    A
    Macaca is a racial slur from his mom’s birthplace (possibly some sort of slang like monkey? or macaque?)

    or

    B
    Just some made up nonsense syllables (as per Sen Allen)

    So now you are claiming to be a black man that Al Gore told a racist joke to? Please tell all! We are here to expose lies and if brainiac Al is also racist Al, lets hear the allegations (please provide corrobarating details, like say some facts, recordings, transcripts, even just date, time, and location – possibly others who were within earshot). Thanks!

    Say, while you are making shit up and pulling it wholesale from your ass, could you also please detail where the WMDz are? In Iraq, Syria, wherever you can find some real info would be great. Then send it to the whitehouse. Thanks again.

    And you too are vulgar, offensive, obsessed with how libs are evil, you are full of hatred, blah blah, stupid, blah blah, incoherent, blah blah etc etc. Please save up the vitriol and condesention for your Xmas Eve message.

  55. TeacherVet Says:

    You’re nuts – please keep it up, and suggest to me how I can get your voice out to the greater public. This kind of stuff was very useful when I took a two-month sabatical leave to broadcast it in central Ohio prior to the 2004 election, and your actual voice needs to be heard by the voting public.

    Yes, my mother’s grandmother was black. That racial influence is not evident in my appearance, especially with my blond hair, but I have proudly proclaimed it in my classes (40+% of our community is black, and I am accepted as such in the black community). Go ahead and use the “n” word – it won’t bother me, and will be much more honest on your part.

    Al Gore racist statement? November 2002, Nashville, TN, trying to impress his friends with unnatural humor and flippancy.

    I don’t know where the WMDz are; do you? Opps, forgot, they never existed – all those Democrats lied, and thousands of dead Kurds are now resurrected.

    Please point out an instance in which Bush, Cheney or any Republican endorsed torture… or are you mind-reading again, then “making shit up and pulling it wholesale from your ass”? Or, do bumper-sticker slogans constitute fact? If so, then “Shit Happens,” leaving room for no arguments.

    Since you bring it up regularly, please point out examples of my vulgarity, racism, etc…. then, ask me to do the same with you. As with you, I never promised to be civil or polite, but your own posts illustrate that insults and foul language only demean the message.

  56. enkidu Says:

    If you mean “nuts” like the rejoinder of General McAuliffe to the nazi surrender demand in Bastogne, then you got it right mr angryrightwingnutjob.

    Please do include all my posts (not just cherry picking the bit here n there, a bit of editing, some shit you pulled from your posterior, etc etc, viola! mini-swiftboat-moron). Here are some suggestions for items you shoud include: Make sure you include Dick Cheney’s sickening “go fuck yourself!” on the Senate floor. That is probably my favorite! Make sure more GOoPers hear that. And that 25% of Uhmerkkkins think the sun goes around the earth! Also make sure you share the NIE report that is being held back (until after the election of course) that says Iraq is making the war on terror worse. Include elections in Palestine, Lebanon, a failed Iraq war of greed, Afghanistan sliding back into chaos, Katrina, the US economy, national debt, national unity, American values (which now evidently include torture), sweet Jesus what hasn’t this president fucked up? Heck of a job bushie!

    Since you love bludgeoning others with your ancestry, perhaps you should write Senator Allen and ask him what Macaca means? You still haven’t cleared that up for me. I will continue to use it affectionately for you macaca-san until you clear up what these nonsense syllables actually mean. Did you know Allen once hacked the head off a doe and then found a black area of town where he stuffed it in some random family’s mailbox? You stormGOoPers have a near monopoly on racist bilge but you turn a blind eye to this rampant sickness. Please give us all the details of your Al Gore story, should be worth a laugh or two. I don’t use the n-word, but cling tightly to your illusions if it gives you comfort.

    Speaking of illusions, you have stated we found the WMDz over and over (or mb they are in Syria! or mb the Easter bunny has em! or that unicorn!) Yet you can’t back up your statements with any facts or reliable sources. None of your bloviating has has panned out to be true. None.

    As to your vulgarity, does calling a citizen who disagrees with you an asshole count? A creature? Traitor? Socialist? I don’t have time to dig it all up, but my favorite was your comment where you start almost every paragraph with the word asshole! You sure do talk purty, macaca-san.

    Farking octa-moron.

  57. TeacherVet Says:

    rethugs, reprobates and retards
    redneck arseholes
    your Fuhrer
    mthodically clean your assault rifle
    muttering crazy shit about open season on Liberals
    fucking nuts
    rethuglican troll
    hatred with your fellow rednecks, racists, greedmongers, warmongers, and general dipshits
    religious nutjobs
    intolerant troll
    fucking nutjobs (oops, Bush supporters)
    unemployed rebel crank
    morally and intellectually dishonest dipship
    crazy, angry, and vicious nazi
    your skinhead or kkk buddies
    horseshit, bullshit, and just plain shit
    dumbass wingnut
    wingnut (used frequently, obviously a favorite “debate” tool)
    mr angryrightwingnutjog
    mini-swiftboat-moron
    Uhmerkkkins
    macaca-san
    stormGOoPers
    Farking octa-moron

    Can you say, “Thanks, Dad”? He must have been a great teacher.

    I surely missed some of your skillful, intellectual debate rhetoric just on this string, but you asked me to “clear up some of those nonsense syllables”…And you get upset when you are recognized as an asshole, creature, traitor and Socialist, or when your so-called tolerance is questioned? lol

    Need more – we have an election coming up. I don’t have time to search all of your fabulous posts, so this string will have to suffice. Btw, did you have a point to make?

  58. treehugger Says:

    That NIE report was actually leaked, and surprise surprise, the US intelligence community says that the fiasco that is now Iraq has increased worldwide terrorism, provided Al Qaeda with the ultimate recruitment tool, and has made America mush less safe.

    Let’s see how this gets spun, shall we.

  59. enkidu Says:

    MACACA NEWS FLASH!

    The latest was in World Magazine, a big-circulation evangelical weekly:

    Allen actually had a pretty credible defense for what he said. No one–including The Washington Post, which featured the story repeatedly for several weeks–ever demonstrated that “macaca” really has such murky racial connotations in any language. But in northern Italy, where Allen’s mother had close family connections, “macaca” does seem to mean “clown” or “buffoon.” Allen says now that’s what he was trying to communicate.

    Perfect! So, Macaca-san, are you saying your nickname is A) mispronounced ‘mohawk’ B) nonsense syllables C) clown or buffoon D) a racist slur? I knew it was C all along buddy.

  60. enkidu Says:

    And with ‘regard’ to your list of salty language? Who gives a fuck? Unlike you, I never pretended I was using only the most genteel phrasing. Quite the opposite in fact (there are those pernicious facts again!) I am not offended by your bad language Macaca, just pointing out the many instances where you use offensive language to frame the debate in terms that simply do not have any merit. Go ahead, show voters in Ohio what an Independent voter thinks of the far right wing of the Republican party. Just use the entire post rather than trimming it to the swear words. btw you misspelled many of them in your rage. Plus you missed one of my favorites: fucktard.

    Again and again you claim we found the WMDs. Please show us some proof positive. Something from the IAEA, or maybe DoD, DoE, BBC, GAO, skip sources like powerline and lilgreenfootballs.

    GWB has been a disaster of a president. Again and again you claim Bush is a competent leader. Please show some examples. Other than jamming Strip Search Sammy into the Supreme Court, tax cuts for millionaires and a few hundred thousand dead Iraqi’s, you don’t have a whole lot to crow about.

    If you had any facts to back up your typically outrageous far right wing (shall I add the nut? spose I just did) claims, we could actually have a ‘debate’, but as it is your spew is the usual hash of bumpersticker GOP jingoism. You folks should concentrate on defeating Osama and Co. rather than the evil Democrats.

    Get a life.

  61. treehugger Says:

    Here is a picture of all the WMD they have found in Iraq:

    That’s pretty scary.

  62. TeacherVet Says:

    The point being that your immature personal attacks demean and disguise any message that might sometimes be included in one of your lengthy rants. But, if that’s the only argument you have…

    I know this will disturb you, sending you over the edge again, but as usual you’re wrong about the macaca term. You once acknowledged that it is a racial slur (which it is), but now you say you “knew all along” that it means clown or buffoon. If that’s the case, why have you always included it as an example of Allen’s “racism”? Whatever fits at the time, eh?

    Please provide your source of the story about the doe’s head and the mailbox of a random black family. You’ll fall for any charge that fits your preconceived notion, as with the Bush/Cheney/Libby/Wilson/Plame/Armitage/Fitzgerald garbage that was “reported” to exhaustion, including on this site. Of course, it’s the charge that matters, regardless of truth.

    Having answered your redundant question about WMD numerous times, it no longer warrants a response. Go back and read my earlier posts.

    This teacher received his tax cut, as did all of my friends, and we’re certainly not millionaires. Bumpersticker jingoism?

    You never respond to a question, but I’ll try once again: You’ve alleged repeatedly that I refer to Democrats as “evil.” On what occasion did I label Democrats as such?

    Cowards, yes. Filled with rage and hatred, yes. Running campaigns of lies, slander and libel, yes. Short-sightedness, yes. Patriotic, no. Willing to sacrifice national security, if necessary to win an election, yes. Using government dependency to keep the slaves on the plantation, yes. Endorsing and applying Margaret Sanger’s dreams of eugenics, yes. Evil, no, I’ve not used that label – but you can draw your own conclusions.

    I will certainly use your posts in their entirety; it’s not necessary to “trim” them to just the childishness and vulgarity, since that is usually the only thing you have to offer. We have an election coming up, and you’re a heckuva campaigner. I worked Tennessee in 2000, Ohio in 2004, and I’m narrowing down my choices for my upcoming 2-week leave of absence. I appreciate the material, and you’ll win lots of votes, but don’t assign yourself too much self-importance. Mean-hearted liberals are a dime-a-dozen, and I use several of you from various left-wing hate sites as my living examples. I think you’re aware of your rights, but I remind you that “Anything you say can, and will, be used against you” in the court of public opinion.

  63. enkidu Says:

    My rants? Lengthy? Scroll up buddy. The guy who was with Allen when he shot a doe and cut off its head to stuff into a black family’s mailbox is Doctor Ken Shelton. I think I saw him on hardball the other night, try google or youtube.

    When you go to another state to pitch your lies and extremism, please lead with this (which I think is short hand for “evil”)

    “Democrats… Cowards, yes. Filled with rage and hatred, yes. Running campaigns of lies, slander and libel, yes. Short-sightedness, yes. Patriotic, no. Willing to sacrifice national security, if necessary to win an election, yes. Using government dependency to keep the slaves on the plantation, yes. Endorsing and applying Margaret Sanger’s dreams of eugenics, yes.”

    I am sure lots of Dems will be converted, Independents swayed and Republicans made yet more fervently GOP. And you chide me for intolerance? You are to laugh! So which of your several positions on WMDs are you now taking Mr FlipFlop?

    Here is a quote from old stone face John Kerry (thrice the man you are)
    “Let me be clear about something—something that it seems few people are willing to say. This bill permits torture. It gives the President the discretion to interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions. No matter how much well-intended United States Senators would like to believe otherwise, it gives an Administration that lobbied for torture just what it wanted.”

    I ask again: Who Would Jesus Torture
    shame on you, shame on us for letting this happen, shame!

    ps – Keith Olberman got your letter I hear

  64. TeacherVet Says:

    I promise to lead with precisely that material – then use unedited posts to develop proof of each charge, using your own words and those of others of your ilk. You tend to find isolated instances of lone individuals saying stupid things. I find numerous instances by many who consistently spout vitriolic hatred.

    Doctor Shelton’s little story has been denied by everyone who knew Allen at the time it supposedly happened, including those who do not support him. Of course, Shelton is aware that the charge (as always) is all that matters.

    (sarc) Keith Olberman is a wonderful, objective, unbiased reporter, typical of all in the MSM. If he has a political agenda, surely he doesn’t allow it to show, so why would I write him a letter? (/sarc) Your imagination is vivid, but the charge that i wrote a letter to him is indicative of liberal lies. I wouldn’t waste 39 cents or a sheet of paper on him, but you make an assumption and treat it as fact. Typical of all charges made against all conservatives – unfounded, untrue, etc. (See previous post for statement about the outing of a non-secret agent).

    (sarc) Speaking of lacking a political agenda, please quote John Kerry. There are some meaningful and revealing Teddy quotes out there, too. (/sarc)

    Jesus would torture no one, and neither would Bush. Of course, Kerry would disagree – after all, he was tortured by the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, otherwise known as voters, and his every statement makes Republicans more fervently GOP… thankfully.

  65. treehugger Says:

    I think the problem right-wingers have with Olberman is that he speakith to elegantly, often using words that most people on the right don’t understand. But he does have a magical way with words, and facts. See latest post on lies.com.

    Think of him as the left’s answer to O’rielly, only with much more sophistication and a hunger for, hmm, what are those things called again… oh yeah, truth and facts.

  66. TeacherVet Says:

    I must apologize for inferring otherwise, but I don’t know Keith Olberman. After enkidu mentioned something vague about my supposed letter to him, I searched and learned he had a show on MSNBC. Wow, he uses words that only those on the “left” can understand. Impressive.

  67. enkidu Says:

    Bush and Co. have had many people – guilty and innocent – tortured.
    That is a fact. Sadly it is one of many facts that right wing fanatics like Macaca-san just cannot face. It is the truth. You can’t believe away the overwhelming evidence forever.

    Like the overwhelming evidence that George ‘Macaca’ Allen is a not-so-closeted racist. So Macaca-san, is your nickname some kind of slur? Really? So are you calling the great GOP Senator a bigoted jerk? Or only ‘evil’ (shorthand – see previous comment) LIEberals and Demoncrats for mocking your ridiculous faith in a bigoted, corrupt and incompetent bushco regime? If not, I do believe you owe me an apology (plus all that nasty stuff you spew about my father, that is real classy! keep up Jesus’ work in your heart buddy!)

    So how about that Rep. Mark Foley (R-FL)? There is yet another family values GOP cretin revealed for what he is: a closeted gay hypocrit, corrupt to his core values. Why don’t you go help the GOP replacement campaign in FL? Or go to Ohio again and knock on doors in the inner cities. Announce loudly that you are a black man!!! coming to disenthrall his brothers and sisters!!! then lead right into your most persuasive screed: “Democrats… Cowards, yes. Filled with rage and hatred, yes. Running campaigns of lies, slander and libel, yes. Short-sightedness, yes. Patriotic, no. Willing to sacrifice national security, if necessary to win an election, yes. Using government dependency to keep the slaves on the plantation, yes. Endorsing and applying Margaret Sanger’s dreams of eugenics, yes.” If the person in question slams the door in your face or tells you to stuff it, yell asshole! a half dozen times to exorcize them demons. This will surely convince moderate Independents such as myself of the superior wisdom of your ways. Or maybe you only knock on doors where the SUV out front has a “support the troops” ribbon magnet?

    I went back and read your Christmas Eve screed. You are a sad sick man. I am moved to pity and sadness when I think of how much you hate them libs and dems for betraying your glorious wars (Vietnam and Iraq). I also read a few exchanges I had with Craig over White Phosphorous in the same Dec05 timeframe: the back and forth was polite and completely unlike our pissing match dear Macaca-san.

    Look in the mirror Macaca, you need help. Up your meds and seek some professional counseling. Try not to shoot anyone in the face. Cheers!

    ps
    here is (one of the many reasons) why 3 out of 4 Iraq War (2) vets are running as Democrats
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8zQA1gYwpk
    I hope Jim Webb kicks Macaca’s ass with the combat boots his son gave him to campaign in before he deployed to Iraq (Jimmy is there right now btw). He wears nothing else on the campaign trail.

  68. TeacherVet Says:

    Monkey-boy here! Do you mean Jim Webb, the non-racist? Someone accused him, so it must also be factual, right?

    You know, of the countless scores of charges that have been made against Bush and conservatives in general, I can’t think of any, none, that have been proven with conclusive evidence. That is central to my conclusion that “the accusation is all that matters” to power-hungry liberals.

    I will be discussing the issues with town-hall audiences, not door-to-door, and will be accompanied by (among others) several dark-skinned conservatives. You asked that I lead with my descriptions of those on the extreme Left who now dominate the Democrat party. I promise to do so, then prove each charge as briefly outlined following:

    Cowards: Using transcripts of speeches by Democrat leaders and posts on blog sites.

    Filled with rage and hatred: The material is abundant, thanks to you and your ilk.

    Running campaigns of lies, slander and libel: See my second paragraph above.

    Shortsightedness: Abortion, and it’s negative political consequences for its proponents, is a great place to start. I also include the statements/predictions/conclusions made by Professors Alexander Tyler (University of Edinburgh) and Joseph Olson (Hamline University School of Law).

    Lack of patriotism: Consistent ridicule of visible signs of patriotism (flag-waving, window stickers supporting troops, etc.) As an example, see the ridicule in your last statement above – the one about kicking someone’s ass with combat boots.

    Willing to sacrifice national security, if necessary, for political gain: The Congressional speeches are innumerable.

    Using government dependency to keep the slaves on the plantation: Starr Parker provides much of the material, with more from the professors noted above, and the Katrina tragedy also provides reinforcement.

    Endorsing and applying Margaret Sanger’s dreams of eugenics: Starr Parker again, with the startling statistics and personal testimony she provides.

    Hypocrisy: The sources are endless, from both Clintons, Teddy, Dean, Kerry, and on and on.

    Everything will be delivered with the utmost professionalism. Having plenty of factual evidentiary material to support our arguments, we have no need to rely only on sophomoric vulgarity, innuendo, or vivid imaginations. We certainly might fail, but the effort will be honorable. We fully expect to be attacked, but we will not resort to anything but a presentation of the accumulated facts.

    You seem to be obsessed with the notion of shooting someone in the face, but I need professional counseling? btw, I take no meds, but why deflate an over-active imagination of a “moderate Independent,” (laughing almost to tears) – so carry on.

  69. enkidu Says:

    gee Macaca-san, seems like I really hit a nerve there. Please talk to your doctor before you stop the anti-psychotic medicines. The cold-turkey method is making you very cranky (crankier).

    I have asked you over and over to show some proof of your claims that we found the WMDz. You have nothing. Oh wait they are in Syria! They are in Iran! mb the easter bunny has em? You flip flop so fast, I think we should hook you up to an electrical generator (maybe in series with the rapidly spinning corpses of our Founding Fathers). Might help offset our dependence on foriegn oil.

    Please lead off every town hall meeting with this (which is so farking crazy it borders on the insane, but that is the present day GOP for you):

    “Democrats… Cowards, yes. Filled with rage and hatred, yes. Running campaigns of lies, slander and libel, yes. Short-sightedness, yes. Patriotic, no. Willing to sacrifice national security, if necessary to win an election, yes. Using government dependency to keep the slaves on the plantation, yes. Endorsing and applying Margaret Sanger’s dreams of eugenics, yes.”

    I am sure that will convince TONS of Independents and Dems to vote for the GOP. btw what does GOP stand for again?
    Greedy Olde Perpetrators?
    Gormy Old Pedophiles?
    Grasping Obstreperous Page-chasers?

    The cover up just makes the crime worse folks, have you learned nothing from Watergate? Other than don’t get caught (of course). And even that lesson appears to have fallen to GOoPer hubris and stupidity.

    Finally, I can see how this wouldn’t be covered in your neck of the woods: Vice Preznit Cheney shot a man in the face while quail hunting. Drink was involved, but not investigated. Lack of judgement was involved, but no responsibility was ever assigned or assumed. Just one of those things!

  70. TeacherVet Says:

    I’ve answered your always-repeated question about WMD many times. If you want an answer, re-read any one of my recent posts.

    No one has the moral right to question the circumstances of the Cheney hunting accident if they spout the same language as the man who allowed a young girl to drown in his Oldsmobile. With Cheney, no responsibility was ever assigned or assumed? Sorry, but you’re wrong on all counts. His “guilt” was both assigned and assumed by happy lefties everywhere, yourself included, and he accepted responsibility himself.

    Wish to discuss hypocrisy? Let’s discuss party reactions to Gerry Studs (D) vs. the Florida pervert (R). Studs gets three standing ovations from his liberal colleagues after being censured for actually having sex with an underage page, while the disgusting written correspondence of the Florida perv is condemned by everyone in the GOP, including this Monkey-boy.

    Before generalizing your judgments, you might want to wait to find out who saved the IM conversational records for up to three years, then gave them to the MSM just before the mid-term elections… flash-back to Plame and Mapes/Rather. After all, it is you who disavows opinions without proven facts… right?

  71. enkidu Says:

    So… you have no evidence of WMDs in Iraq or anywhere else
    wtf are we over there for again?

    The Foley scandal isn’t just about he crime of being gay (which is only a crime in Reichwingnut minds btw), the scandal is also about GOP leadership knowing this for at least 5 years (some reports now say as far back as 2000 the only openly gay GOP ‘member’ was informed of Foley predator sickness). i know you want to make this all about the vast left wing conspiracy, but i doubt Pelosi is competent enough to mastermind this whole sh!tstorm

    Sex with minors is a crime, if Foley didn’t have sex with minors well, that is for the judge to find out. Studds (who i had never heard of before you parroted the GOP stalking points) evidently did not have sex with a minor (or he would be in prison). Foley was the hypocrit WHO WROTE THE LAW that he will probably go to jail for violating (internet predation on anyone under 18). Covering it all up just makes the ditch deeper. Stop digging.

    It is time for Democratic oversight of a regime that is out of control. Two words: subpoena power

    GOP values include: torture, kickbacks, underage gay sex scandals, coverups, unjustified war, bogus intelligence, corruption, bloated fed spending, katrina, Iraq and soon to be Iran. What exactly hasn’t he fucked up? Oh yeah, Alito on the Supreme Court and Pakistan is barely holding together under a military dictatorship. Overall grade: F+

    Hey how is the North Korea nuke thing going bushie? Heck of a job!

    And where is Osama bin Forgotten again?

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