First Amendment Takes a Hit in Al-Timimi Verdict
Fantastico takes time off from battling his arch-nemesis Terrifica to send in the following link to the Washington Post: Jurors convict muslim leader in terrorism case. Apparently the “shouting ‘fire’ in a crowded theater” exception to freedom of speech has been quietly expanded to include “saying naughty things about the United States while muslim.”
April 27th, 2005 at 2:55 pm
I’m not in the courtroom, but the claim “soliciting others to levy war against the United States” seems to carry some weight. But is it a broken law? And is it appropriate given the nature of the war or whenever that law was enacted? There are plenty of aged laws which are routinely ignored.
April 28th, 2005 at 5:37 am
But Ruth Wedgwood, a law professor at Johns Hopkins University and a former federal prosecutor, said Timimi’s words could make him as guilty as the people who followed his advice and flew off to the terrorist camps. “If one’s demonstrated intention is to procure a violent act, that’s not protected speech,” she said.
Hi all,
I agree with this above axcript from the feature. The guy is Clearly very Influential and Dangerous, as we all know words can be very powerful, even Hitlers good Speach skills got him where he wanted. This guy clearly isn’t just excersising free speach, he’s stirring up a Hornets nest of these Fuck heads who will die for their so called Ala !!!
Let the Bastard Rot!!
The Good Doctor.
April 28th, 2005 at 10:40 am
Fantastico is dead. Long live ethan-p (not as creative of an alias, but what’re ya gonna do?)
I have some concerns about this case.
I don’t know all of the facts yet — but there are some scary claims coming out from the USAG’s office. The claims that these guys were training for terrorist activities by playing paintball in the woods…can the AG’s office substantiate those claims, or were they presuming that these guys were terrorists because they were Muslims (and possibly radical muslims) playing wargames in the woods? I fear that the logic is that if they just drove their taxis like good little heathens, they wouldn’t be in this mess.
The reason that this concerns me is that some of my political views may be aligned with one extreme or another. I like to ask questions of everyone (left, right, center…whatever) Depending on the status of our government, those views may not be in line with the dominant party, and my questions may be perceived as a threat. I play some realtime strategy video games (war games) — if the government decided that I have some ideals dangerous to their agenda, could these be conveniently constrewed as tactical training for an insurgency against the US government, and then used to lock me up?
The second thing that concerns me (and again, I don’t have all of the information in front of me…just what the mainstream press reports on) is that I’m unsure of what was actually said by Al-Timimi, but in this case, context is everything. The story that I read was that he did not abuse his power to say “everybody in this room needs to go to Afghanistan, and contact Saheed Al-Samir in Bargam to join his insurgency organization to fight the forthcoming US occupation!”
Instead, according to mainstream press, he said that all loyal to the Muslim cause should fight any Afghani occupation from the US. There was not any direct order from him, and the situation was hypothetical, since we had not yet begun military operations in Afghanistan when he spoke out. The evidence against the man appears to be completely circumstantial.
So back to the issue of free speech: Free speech involves protecting speech both popular and unpopular. The problem is that his speech was both unpopular, and at a dangerous time for such words. The fact is that after 9/11, many Americans (particularly tow-the-line conservatives) felt that any dissenting speech was dangerous and unamerican. There was a sentiment of either being on the bus, or off the bus. This was both a matter of foreign and domestic policy.
This creates a dangerous precedent of treating anyone with a dissenting position as a terrorist. Was Al-Timimi a material supporter of terrorism? Again, given the facts available to me, I do not know. I do, however, have a general feeling that he spoke out against the wrong people, at the wrong time, to the wrong audience. It seems that the judge in this case shares some of my concerns, since some of the convictions may be overturned by Judge Brinkema.
Of course, I am afraid of any religious fundamentalist…I don’t trust Islamic fundamentalists any more or less than Christian, Jewish, or Hindu fundamentalists. They’re extremists, and by nature, can be very dangerous. It does not, however, mean that I beleive that they should be locked up for their beliefs, or even for speaking to others about their beliefs.
I am obviously lacking the whole story, and I recgonize that — and I’m trying not to be too quick to judge…but this administration (including the DoJ) are not very forthcoming with information…and I’ve got a pretty good imagination. Given the dearth of credible data, as well as other “slippery slope” actions in the past 4-5 years, it doesn’t take much of a stretch of imagination to smell bullshit on this.
Oh — and regarding Nazi remarks. They’re cliche — I’m not invoking Godwin’s law, because I have nothing to discuss with Robert, but I’m going to make lies.com readers of said law. Read up on Godwin here.
April 29th, 2005 at 12:45 pm
Seems the key issue was whether he was the boss of these men.
Is a religious leader a boss in the way a mafia leader is a boss?
April 30th, 2005 at 11:17 am
Fuck Cliche’s ethan, this guy is bad news!! and needs to be sorted out, Instead of Normal God Fearing Americans, Australians and Englishmen being looked upon as criminals when they go through security at Airports.
“God Fearing” ….did you like that ethan? I’ll give you all the Frickin’ cliche’s you want.
What type of real time strategy games do you play? you wouldn’t be fighting against Americans would you?
I like Medal of Honor so I can Blast those…Wait For it…………………………………………….NAZI’s to Hell, shit I said a cliche again.
Say ‘ello to Timimi for me ethan
May 1st, 2005 at 6:05 am
Robert, I said the same thing about the current resident in the white house six months before he was voted into it, but no one listened. Just remember that the terrorists and all the fundamentalists fear God more than they do our government, our security, our money, or our friends and family in the Military; ‘THEY'(as I’m sure you refer to them, whomever they may be) have no reference to our values, culture, or our real life issues. Everything ‘THEY’ know comes from our media, our government, and their religious leaders. Over the years, ‘THEY’ have been called ‘REBELS’, ‘FREEDOM FIGHTERS’, ‘TERRORISTS’, and currently called ‘INSURGENTS’. Of course, We as americans need someone to hate and to blame for all our problems. This government we have is a great thing, but it strives to draw attention from itself by focusing your hate elsewhere. Your focus is not on your own country, family, or community. The ‘TERRORists’ strive to induce TERROR and FEAR. ‘THEY’ succeeded and we have lost the war on terror. As deeply hurt as we were by the events on 9/11, our response was out of pure terror. Our lives came to a standstill and we hid behind our military and struck out blindly against anyone we could blame to eliminate the cause of our fear. We failed and we decimated a country which was already in a shambles; Who already hated us. Certain people in our government realized this state of fear and terror and chose to capitalize upon it. This led to another war on another country that we and that country’s leadership had left in a shambles; For no other reason other than attempted control and profit.
I think I’m done ranting…..
May 2nd, 2005 at 8:37 am
Ignore Robert, he’s a troll.
May 3rd, 2005 at 4:41 am
Hi ethan,
A Troll, Ha, is that the Best you Got ?? Shit, I want read into it any further, you’ve already embaressed yourself enough.
SINISTER: Time to shut you down!! The Terrorists fear God????
What God??? Alaa???? they don’t Believe in God, they worship false Idols and Believe that their so called “God” will reward them with everlasting Paradise when they do things like Crash 767’s into Buildings. Sinister are you really that Fucking Dense in the head to Believe that “they”….(I just had to throw that in for you) are God fearing people who at the very least would even care about anybody but their bloody selves? If you do then your more of a Bloody Simpleton than I thought.
As for what happened in Iraq, yeah, sure it was in a shambles, but if it wasnt liberated then more would have died at the hands of their fucking Genocidal Mad dictator, than the measly amount that died in the War, exceptable losses for the good of the country.
You should bloody wake up to yourself Sinister!!!!!!!!!
GOOD DAY TO YOU………DOCTOR
May 3rd, 2005 at 6:43 am
Robert:
How’s the trolling going, troll?
May 4th, 2005 at 2:03 pm
That’s a response?
May 5th, 2005 at 7:40 am
Ya, since he’s unable to have a discussion without being an ass, I won’t put any thought into responding to his trolls anymore (except for calling him out on what he is, a troll). If you like, you can refer to most of his conversations for reference…but I’m done with him.
I encourage others to call him out and/or ignore him. He’ll either figure it out and grow up, or simply go away. I’m cool with it either way.