Comments on: November: The Cruelest Month http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/ believe nothing... Fri, 16 May 2008 02:31:34 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4 by: Sergio Mielnik http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-11187 Wed, 08 Dec 2004 23:23:51 +0000 http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-11187 Has anyone counted the wounded ratio comparing both vietnam and Irak? Has anyone counted the wounded ratio comparing both vietnam and Irak?

]]> by: John Callender http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-10254 Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:34:01 +0000 http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-10254 I think you're not looking at the larger picture, Alex. In the course of the Vietnam war the US suffered something like 58,000 combat fatalities. So far in Iraq we're at about 1,200. Maybe you mean something else when you say "in terms of pure casualty lists," but to me, that sounds like Vietnam, at least at this point, is the worse of the two. It's potentially misleading, as many people have pointed out, the way I've started each war's timeline in the graphs above at a pont when we had a major troop presence in Iraq, but only a minimal advisory role in Vietnam. I think you're letting yourself be misled by that. I think you’re not looking at the larger picture, Alex. In the course of the Vietnam war the US suffered something like 58,000 combat fatalities. So far in Iraq we’re at about 1,200. Maybe you mean something else when you say “in terms of pure casualty lists,” but to me, that sounds like Vietnam, at least at this point, is the worse of the two.

It’s potentially misleading, as many people have pointed out, the way I’ve started each war’s timeline in the graphs above at a pont when we had a major troop presence in Iraq, but only a minimal advisory role in Vietnam. I think you’re letting yourself be misled by that.

]]> by: Alex http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-10253 Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:18:56 +0000 http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-10253 The context of the two wars were different, as Roger pointed out. But in terms of pure casualty lists, one can see that Iraq is the worse of the two. As in Vietnam, we do not have the support of the general population, which should be a pre-requsite to regime change. The context of the two wars were different, as Roger pointed out. But in terms of pure casualty lists, one can see that Iraq is the worse of the two. As in Vietnam, we do not have the support of the general population, which should be a pre-requsite to regime change.

]]> by: dawolochow http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-6144 Mon, 13 Sep 2004 04:56:42 +0000 http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-6144 It's now September 2004 and the trend continues. Whatever the interpretation of the raw data, it is obvious that Iraq is at a very early stage (unless we pull off a miracle, then pull out); note that Vietnam had a momentum that reached a peak after about 7-8 years. We risk losing comparable numbers in Iraq only if we send comparable numbers over there---difficult to do absent a draft. If I may quote from someone much wiser : There is no way to peace; peace IS the way. When will we realize this? It’s now September 2004 and the trend continues. Whatever the interpretation of the raw data, it is obvious that Iraq is at a very early stage (unless we pull off a miracle, then pull out); note that Vietnam had a momentum that reached a peak after about 7-8 years. We risk losing comparable numbers in Iraq only if we send comparable numbers over there—difficult to do absent a draft.

If I may quote from someone much wiser : There is no way to peace; peace IS the way. When will we realize this?

]]> by: Jonathan http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-5404 Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:41:37 +0000 http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-5404 The first Vietnam combat death was in 1957. You're starting late. The first Vietnam combat death was in 1957. You’re starting late.

]]> by: Stan http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-2871 Fri, 09 Apr 2004 21:09:53 +0000 http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-2871 Perhaps Roger might wish to reconsider his opinion of the Afghan annexation in view of the rapidly escalating death rate of US troops stationed there today? Perhaps Roger might wish to reconsider his opinion of the Afghan annexation in view of the rapidly escalating death rate of US troops stationed there today?

]]> by: Roger http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-2870 Wed, 07 Jan 2004 21:49:56 +0000 http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-2870 I don't see any value in this graph comparison, other than to see what you want to see. At best it's like comparing apples to oranges, at worst it's "voodoo statistics" used to spin a particular point of view. Vietnam and Iraq are entirely different situations, and for that reason alone there is no predictive value to laying one graph on top of the other. For example: - In Vietnam, the insurgents enjoyed widespread support from the general population. In Iraq, polls show that the overwhelming majority of the population is against the insurgency (even if they are not pro-coalition). - In Vietnam, the insurgency was constantly being massively resupplied by outside powers. In Iraq, the insurgents depend mostly on previously stored supplies and money, the quantities of which are being depleted (or captured) daily. The list of differences (terrain, technology, rules of engagement, political will, etc.) goes on and on. People made comparisons like this when we went into Afghanistan. Everyone dragged out statistics from the Soviet invasion and we all heard about the "meat grinder" we were getting sucked into. Even though we were fighting a war in the same country against some of the same people, the outcome was radically different. I don’t see any value in this graph comparison, other than to see what you want to see. At best it’s like comparing apples to oranges, at worst it’s “voodoo statistics” used to spin a particular point of view.

Vietnam and Iraq are entirely different situations, and for that reason alone there is no predictive value to laying one graph on top of the other. For example:

- In Vietnam, the insurgents enjoyed widespread support from the general population. In Iraq, polls show that the overwhelming majority of the population is against the insurgency (even if they are not pro-coalition).

- In Vietnam, the insurgency was constantly being massively resupplied by outside powers. In Iraq, the insurgents depend mostly on previously stored supplies and money, the quantities of which are being depleted (or captured) daily.

The list of differences (terrain, technology, rules of engagement, political will, etc.) goes on and on.

People made comparisons like this when we went into Afghanistan. Everyone dragged out statistics from the Soviet invasion and we all heard about the “meat grinder” we were getting sucked into. Even though we were fighting a war in the same country against some of the same people, the outcome was radically different.

]]> by: a_stupid_box http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-2869 Tue, 02 Dec 2003 20:42:33 +0000 http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-2869 I've been looking at the graph shape, personally. When are the peaks, when are the dips. I think that by war-end, they'll probably be pretty similar. Keep in mind that to do this I'm using a "percentage of time spent in theatre of operations" as opposed to any static numbers regarding the time the troops ave spent in their respective wars. As it currently stands by my numbers, a few months in Iraq are equaling a few years in Vietnam. Unlike jbc, however, I'm not motivated enough to make a pretty chart :D I’ve been looking at the graph shape, personally. When are the peaks, when are the dips. I think that by war-end, they’ll probably be pretty similar.

Keep in mind that to do this I’m using a “percentage of time spent in theatre of operations” as opposed to any static numbers regarding the time the troops ave spent in their respective wars. As it currently stands by my numbers, a few months in Iraq are equaling a few years in Vietnam.

Unlike jbc, however, I’m not motivated enough to make a pretty chart :D

]]> by: lies.com » US War Dead in Iraq for May http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-4009 Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-4009 [...] new numbers become available. US deaths in Vietnam and Iraq by month Iraq war deaths <a href="http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/">November: The cruelest month</a> 41 US Iraq war dead in December Post-Saddam death t [...] […] new numbers become available. US deaths in Vietnam and Iraq by month Iraq war deaths November: The cruelest month 41 US Iraq war dead in December Post-Saddam death t […]

]]> by: lies.com » US Soldiers Continue to Die in Iraq http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-5435 Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-5435 [...] new numbers become available. US deaths in Vietnam and Iraq by month Iraq war deaths <a href="http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/">November: The cruelest month</a> 41 US Iraq war dead in December Post-Saddam death t [...] […] new numbers become available. US deaths in Vietnam and Iraq by month Iraq war deaths November: The cruelest month 41 US Iraq war dead in December Post-Saddam death t […]

]]> by: lies.com » Eighteen Months In http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-5934 Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-5934 [...] new numbers become available. US deaths in Vietnam and Iraq by month Iraq war deaths <a href="http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/">November: The cruelest month</a> 41 US Iraq war dead in December Post-Saddam death t [...] […] new numbers become available. US deaths in Vietnam and Iraq by month Iraq war deaths November: The cruelest month 41 US Iraq war dead in December Post-Saddam death t […]

]]> by: lies.com » The Bush Legacy in Iraq http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-8080 Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/#comment-8080 [...] new numbers become available. US deaths in Vietnam and Iraq by month Iraq war deaths <a href="http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/12/02/november-the-cruelest-month/">November: The cruelest month</a> 41 US Iraq war dead in December Post-Saddam death t [...] […] new numbers become available. US deaths in Vietnam and Iraq by month Iraq war deaths November: The cruelest month 41 US Iraq war dead in December Post-Saddam death t […]

]]>